Fort Worth Economic Growth - Gaining on Dallas?

[tierwestah]

I wonder if Dallas's population outgrew San Antonio's to regain its title back as Texas's 2nd largest city?

[TheNiche]

I wonder if Dallas's population outgrew San Antonio's to regain its title back as Texas's 2nd largest city?

I'm betting that San Antonio is keeping pace pretty well. It includes a lot of suburban areas, especially north and west of downtown, that are still filling in with greenfield development.

But I can't really tell where they are coming up with these estimates. It certainly isn't Census data.

[musicman]

I'm surprised, but not really because people are heading back into the Inner City.

from the data it looks like more are headed to the burbs.

[TheNiche]

I'm surprised, but not really because people are heading back into the Inner City.

If the data is accurate, it still does not indicate that people are heading back into the Inner City. If you look at the few suburban municipalities for which data is provided and the subtract from them the amount of growth from both Dallas and Fort Worth combined, you still come up with a positive number.

But the reality is that only a few of the suburbs in the DFW area are represented in this table.

Also, Dallas has the highest rate of apartment demolition in the nation, so its net new supply of multifamily units is not really very impressive. Unless Dallas' housing vacancy rate has declined, it seems unlikely that their one-year population growth could be that much.

[Subdude]

The table would perhaps be more meaningful if they showed the growth in percentage terms.

[nucklehead]

Below is a link to a story by a veteran DFW TV reporter (Tracy Rowlett - CBS 11) about the potential for Fort Worth to someday rival Dallas for economic supremecy in the Metroplex - the driver being the natural gas drilling boom currently going on literally underneath Fort Worth. It's a bit of fanciful speculation - and I'm sure most folks wouldn't agree with Rowlett - but it sent some Dallasites into wild conniptions (which alone made it worth watching/reading)...

Enjoy:

http://cbs11tv.com/local/local_story_210225516.html

The population of Fort Worth could reach a million by 2020 or there abouts. Still, one has to wonder if the tornado hitting downtown didn't have a negative effect on possible investment into new office construction. Plus, most construction is going to be mixed usage regardless. Remember, it isnt the numbers or the heights of buildings in DFW any more but the numbers of mixed usages. Fort Worth is just cool. When people prefer living next to the cooler people of Fort Worth than the arrogant people in Uptown, they will move west. It gets even cooler west of there. Possum Kingdom is paradise.

[Trae]

Possum Kingdom Lake is over an hour west of Fort Worth buddy.

[nucklehead]

Possum Kingdom Lake is over an hour west of Fort Worth buddy.

Five minutes in Rode Island is an hour in Texas. Look, I've lived in Texas my whole life. I've tried to visit other places but both times my pickup broke down. But, you know, I've never had to leave because Texas has everything. There is even talk of a lost glacier up in the Pan Handle. I've been to Possum Kingdom, son. Do you realize that its dam moved a couple of inches down the Brazos River? It has the clearest water in Texas. Like I said, the place is a paradise. As the crow flies, Possum Kingdom isn't that far from Fort Worth. One has to go an around about way to get to it.

[TexasVines]

the real issue between the two is that Dallas is land locked and last map I saw there was about a 100' wide path of land on the south side of dallas where dallas could sneek out of its current borders and grab more land for growth and that hole has probably been plugged now which means there is zero areas around dallas for dallas to annex more property....where as Fort Worth has multiple sides of its borders to annex and expand

so even if people wanted to live in dallas there is no where to escape the equally poor schools in dallas (which is why most move away) while Fort Worth can annex into areas with decent schools and continue to grow

and any river project for Fort Worth will be right in downtown while Dallas will be putting their river project (that will probably never get off the ground) over on the western edge of the city and hope people buy out old dumps and junk yards to start redevelopment....which is extremely difficult to do especially in a place like dallas where everyone demands their "cut" for their area before anything moves

[nucklehead]

the real issue between the two is that Dallas is land locked and last map I saw there was about a 100' wide path of land on the south side of dallas where dallas could sneek out of its current borders and grab more land for growth and that hole has probably been plugged now which means there is zero areas around dallas for dallas to annex more property....where as Fort Worth has multiple sides of its borders to annex and expand

so even if people wanted to live in dallas there is no where to escape the equally poor schools in dallas (which is why most move away) while Fort Worth can annex into areas with decent schools and continue to grow

and any river project for Fort Worth will be right in downtown while Dallas will be putting their river project (that will probably never get off the ground) over on the western edge of the city and hope people buy out old dumps and junk yards to start redevelopment....which is extremely difficult to do especially in a place like dallas where everyone demands their "cut" for their area before anything moves

After the Trinity project being approved twice by the public, do you really think its going to fail? I believe much of the project is already under way at any rate.

The tollway is going to take forever, yes. That could be endangered eventually but I think the city wants it more than anything else.

Fort Worth is just cool when compared to some of the snobbish areas of Dallas. I once tried to ask a Dallas biker for directions and almost got ran over. I happened to be camping at Joe Pool lake so, yes, I probably looked like a homeless man. The city of Dallas must have the worst homeless people in the world.

I must admit that a lot of Houston doesn't exhibit this type of snobbishness because of its many Bohemian neighborhoods where wealthy houses have been built next to middle class ones. A Doctor can be living next to a computer technician while the convenience store next to him is being robbed. The Uptown area of Dallas first started out as this kind of neighborhood but its now more like a gated community.

[TexasVines]

After the Trinity project being approved twice by the public, do you really think its going to fail? I believe much of the project is already under way at any rate.

The tollway is going to take forever, yes. That could be endangered eventually but I think the city wants it more than anything else.

Fort Worth is just cool when compared to some of the snobbish areas of Dallas. I once tried to ask a Dallas biker for directions and almost got ran over. I happened to be camping at Joe Pool lake so, yes, I probably looked like a homeless man. The city of Dallas must have the worst homeless people in the world.

I must admit that a lot of Houston doesn't exhibit this type of snobbishness because of its many Bohemian neighborhoods where wealthy houses have been built next to middle class ones. A Doctor can be living next to a computer technician while the convenience store next to him is being robbed. The Uptown area of Dallas first started out as this kind of neighborhood but its now more like a gated community.

the fact that it had to be twice approved by the public tells me why it will fail.....because something will happen and it will need to be approved again.....and again....and then someone will find that something had changed between the last time it was approved and the time before that "and the public might not have been aware fo those changes when they last approved it" so they will need to tell everyone about those changes and then ask them to approve it again.....and then someone will want to change something else because they did not know things could be changed up after it was first approved....and someone else will want the public to approve the new changes as well.....but the public might all know about those changes when it gets approved again....and on and on it goes.....then there is a city election and new people get on the council.....all with their big egos and their desire for their area to get its cut

so far dallas has not even been able to approve the change in street name of a street filled with junk yards and vacant dump lots....there is a reason dallas is SURROUNDED by suburbs that are NOT A PART OF DALLAS.....because people that want common sense government flee dallas in droves....which leaves only the pork barrelers and the "my area" types and the no growth no new tax types

one thing I always loved about Houston.....you have to go a LONG WAY out in most cases to escape "Houston"......so people that care for the entire city are still around to vote common sense....which is why Houston had two venues and the GRB all downtown where they belong and help the whole city shine....VS other places

[nucklehead]

the fact that it had to be twice approved by the public tells me why it will fail.....because something will happen and it will need to be approved again.....and again....and then someone will find that something had changed between the last time it was approved and the time before that "and the public might not have been aware fo those changes when they last approved it" so they will need to tell everyone about those changes and then ask them to approve it again.....and then someone will want to change something else because they did not know things could be changed up after it was first approved....and someone else will want the public to approve the new changes as well.....but the public might all know about those changes when it gets approved again....and on and on it goes.....then there is a city election and new people get on the council.....all with their big egos and their desire for their area to get its cut

so far dallas has not even been able to approve the change in street name of a street filled with junk yards and vacant dump lots....there is a reason dallas is SURROUNDED by suburbs that are NOT A PART OF DALLAS.....because people that want common sense government flee dallas in droves....which leaves only the pork barrelers and the "my area" types and the no growth no new tax types

one thing I always loved about Houston.....you have to go a LONG WAY out in most cases to escape "Houston"......so people that care for the entire city are still around to vote common sense....which is why Houston had two venues and the GRB all downtown where they belong and help the whole city shine....VS other places

I am certain that the political absurdity you speak of really bothers investors in Uptown. That is one reason I am so bullish on the Las Colinas area becoming the next focal point of business in the future transplanting that of Central Dallas.

The way the city of Houston allowed the Greenspoint area to decay into Gunspoint was pathetic. I guess that is a weakness of not having any zoning laws.

[Trae]

Greenspoint is turning for the better though. Gunspoint was ten+ years ago.

[RedScare]

The way the city of Houston allowed the Greenspoint area to decay into Gunspoint was pathetic. I guess that is a weakness of not having any zoning laws.

You guess wrong.

[MidtownCoog]

There are still a lot of businesses out at Greenspoint. Exxon Chemicals has a lot of people there.

Granted, the mall is lame. But that's the trend with malls today. They are all lame.

[nucklehead]

You guess wrong.

See. You assume that I'm being negative. Are the people in here so used to arguing that they see every comment as negative? I used to live around Greenspoint. If the city hadn't neglected that part of town as they did, then it would probably look much different than it does now.

[roadrunner]

There are still a lot of businesses out at Greenspoint. Exxon Chemicals has a lot of people there.

Granted, the mall is lame. But that's the trend with malls today. They are all lame.

There may be businesses out there, but it's one of the more depressing and dangerous areas of Houston. It's the perfect example of how an edge city business center can decline so drastically.

[nucklehead]

There are still a lot of businesses out at Greenspoint. Exxon Chemicals has a lot of people there.

Granted, the mall is lame. But that's the trend with malls today. They are all lame.

Okay. Yes, with Rankin Rd. getting built up. There has been a lot of infill since the oil depression. Granted. My point is the neglect left the area looking far less than its potential.

Perhaps Greenspoint mall needs to be buried so that 3 or 4 mix use developments can be built there?

[Trae]

Greenspoint Mall is being converted into a giant mixed-use development.

[nucklehead]

Greenspoint Mall is being converted into a giant mixed-use development.

Cool. That's exactly what needs to be done. I think the original design was "mixed abuse." Greenspoint won't ever be the equal to Las Colinas but that area plus the airport has always reminded me of something one might find in Dallas. It seems out of place down there in Houston.

Anyway, considering that it is the center of the aerospace industry in Texas and also the headquarters for the largest gas field in North America, Fort Worth isn't a suburb. I guess that is why this thread was started. One can argue also that Richardson / Plano / Addison / Farmer's Branch aren't typical suburbs with their large labor bases. Ditto Irving / Grapevine. Arlington too is approching half a million people. These urban types suburbs are different from the suburbs like Mesquite or Grand Prairie.

[Trae]

No disrespect, but how is Fort Worth the center for aerospace in Texas? The United Space Alliance and NASA Mission Control are based in Houston.

Oh, and I believe there is a larger natural gas field in Canada.

[lockmat]

Greenspoint Mall is being converted into a giant mixed-use development.

I'm not sure that's correct, Trae. Are you possibly thinking of Northline mall?

[Trae]

Nope. Greenspoint. Not sure how far along it is now (the plans), but I believe the Greenspoint District website has some information. Northline was just changed into like a suburban shopping center.

[lockmat]

Nope. Greenspoint. Not sure how far along it is now (the plans), but I believe the Greenspoint District website has some information. Northline was just changed into like a suburban shopping center.

http://www.greenspoint.org/Uploads/NewsMed...nt_Activity.pdf

http://www.greenspoint.org/ExportedSite/Ma...entActivity.htm

[nucklehead]

No disrespect, but how is Fort Worth the center for aerospace in Texas? The United Space Alliance and NASA Mission Control are based in Houston.

Oh, and I believe there is a larger natural gas field in Canada.

I can remember reading that more planes have been built in the DFW area than any place in the world. But I can't find the link so don't quote me on that.

I think Houston is energy, energy, energy, a really big hospital, energy, that NASA thing, energy, Galveston, energy, the garbage capital pickup of the world, a huge seaport that ships and unloads energy and, finally, the Galleria. Houston doesn't build rockets. It just helps rocket them into space.

In regards to your other comment, I guess Fort Worth is the headquarters for the largest natural gas field in North America outside of Canada. Adding on average royalties worth $200.00 a month to every residence in Tarrant county won't hurt so much during this next recession.

[TexasVines]

I can remember reading that more planes have been built in the DFW area than any place in the world. But I can't find the link so don't quote me on that.

I think Houston is energy, energy, energy, a really big hospital, energy, that NASA thing, energy, Galveston, energy, the garbage capital pickup of the world, a huge seaport that ships and unloads energy and, finally, the Galleria. Houston doesn't build rockets. It just helps rocket them into space.

In regards to your other comment, I guess Fort Worth is the headquarters for the largest natural gas field in North America outside of Canada. Adding on average royalties worth $200.00 a month to every residence in Tarrant county won't hurt so much during this next recession.

the port ships a great deal more than "energy"

[nucklehead]

the port ships a great deal more than "energy"

But a lot of refineries of assorted sizes are based along the port.

Something like 100 refineries exist in the Houston metropolitan area altogether. Those refineries bring in and ship out petrochemical products. Oil pipe comes into Houston just to be worked on. It will come into Houston from Japan to be worked on and finished before being shipped down to Latin America for example. It never leaves a duty free zone.

The port of Houston does ship other items besides energy products but energy is by far its bread and butter.

[MidtownCoog]

Gas Fields have Headquarters? OK then...

Too bad it's ran by East Coast Yankees (Chesapeake Energy ((the ugly Bush daughter's Hubby works there as an MBA turd)).

Sellouts...

[Mister X]

I'd love to know where the nucklehead gets his info. Never mind, I think I just saw Fluffy dropping a load of it in the backyard.

[nucklehead]

I'd love to know where the nucklehead gets his info. Never mind, I think I just saw Fluffy dropping a load of it in the backyard.

I have a quest in here. While you just insult, which is fine with me, my plan is to make you cry because the mixed use projects in Dallas are far wider than Houston's buildings are tall.

I assume you are a stranger to the DFW area being that you live in the Houston area. This is normal because the distance between Dallas and Houston is probably further than the distance between New York City and Boston. If not, who cares? Anyway, DFW creates industries and spins them off fairly quick. All of the sudden it looks like downtown Dallas might once again regain its designation of the financial capital of the southwest while Fort Worth, as was just mentioned, has become headquarters for the second largest gas field in North America.

The industries in DFW are very subtle in how they emerge from no where overnight. Like the way the Telecom industry established itself in Richardson.

Not significant you say?

Imagine creating something of the size of the medical center in Houston in about 10 years? Granted TI and Collins Radio was already there as a base, but the vast majority of the total 25 million of high quality tech space was built in a fairly short period of time.

That is the benefit that the DFW area has in not being a one horse town like Houston but diversified in numerous industries.