Save Buffalo Bayou

[Heightsite]

http://www.savebuffalobayou.org/

Any thoughts, especially among landscape architects?

[Luminare]

Wow. This is some of the most naive garbage I have seen in a long time lol. I actually feel sorry for them.

 

1. Most of the "natural" vegetation that is there right now isn't even natural to the bayou. The stuff that was there for long ago was ripped up when they were redirecting the flow of the bayou to help try and control (which of course trying to control any river/stream/creek/bayou is futile).

 

2. All recent efforts have been to restore the bayou to what it would have been long ago. This includes adding vegetation that is native to Houston, and even creating wetlands to help curb flooding while also creating new habitats for animals that do call the bayou home or will call it home in the future.

 

3. In one of the post this loony tune 'claims' this:

 

The dotted red lines show the riparian forest and wetlands to be bulldozed and scraped on both banks of Buffalo Bayou and into Memorial Park. According to the HCFCD, 80 percent of the targeted area will be stripped of trees and vegetation. Note the areas to be cleared of trees extends into the interior of Memorial Park towards the maintenance facility. This is for access by heavy equipment to the bayou.

 

This is a textbook example of environmentalist cherry picking things which they want to hear and then regurgitating it without any context. It's no different than if you tried talking to an extreme creationist!

 

The plans are actually return the bayou's natural twist and turns meaning this is a complete reversal of flood prevention policy which is fantastic! It means that instead of fighting the flood they are going to instead use natural forces.

 

I mean lets not play around here. All that vegetation that is there is not "virgin" xD pffffft give me a break.

 

4. I'm ashamed that so many of these people are so easily fooled by this nonsense and it apparently has over 1000 likes!

 

I don't understand why environmentalism hasn't yet been deemed a cult because that's what it is! What people should practice is good stewardship of the land/environment we live in as well as common sense conservation.

 

Now of course this is just my opinion on the matter, and maybe I am wrong, but from what I have read and analyzed this is actually for the betterment.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Luminare

[Heightsite]

Well, I'm hoping for a lively discussion after that post. Guess I'm jaded living close to a bayou that was paved before I got here and now have to pay drainage fees for civil engineer's "solution" to flooding here.

[arche_757]

I've never understood why the City of Houston ever allowed Memorial Park to be such an overgrown "woodland" anyway?  Most of the park is not useable, and the portions that are accessible to the public are right on top of two major roads that bisect the park into a north/south portion.

 

The people up in arms about this small stretch of Bayou would do much better spending their money and time to help the Katy Prairie Conservancy aquire more land and develop parks, or at least regional plan for the far western fringes of Houston, than worry about the loss of a little "wetland" that will eventually come back along one small stretch of Buffalo Bayou!

 

And where were these people during the previous phases of development along Buffalo Bayou?

[NenaE]

I've never understood why the City of Houston ever allowed Memorial Park to be such an overgrown "woodland" anyway?  Most of the park is not useable, and the portions that are accessible to the public are right on top of two major roads that bisect the park into a north/south portion.

...

 

And where were these people during the previous phases of development along Buffalo Bayou?

 

I believe there was a clause in the deed to will the land to the city, by the Hogg estate. They wanted it to be a park, to honor returning soldiers.

 

... I've often wondered why that section of BB was left untouched, as well. 

[luciaphile]

Wow. This is some of the most naive garbage I have seen in a long time lol. I actually feel sorry for them.

 

1. Most of the "natural" vegetation that is there right now isn't even natural to the bayou. The stuff that was there for long ago was ripped up when they were redirecting the flow of the bayou to help try and control (which of course trying to control any river/stream/creek/bayou is futile).

 

2. All recent efforts have been to restore the bayou to what it would have been long ago. This includes adding vegetation that is native to Houston, and even creating wetlands to help curb flooding while also creating new habitats for animals that do call the bayou home or will call it home in the future.

 

3. In one of the post this loony tune 'claims' this:

 

The dotted red lines show the riparian forest and wetlands to be bulldozed and scraped on both banks of Buffalo Bayou and into Memorial Park. According to the HCFCD, 80 percent of the targeted area will be stripped of trees and vegetation. Note the areas to be cleared of trees extends into the interior of Memorial Park towards the maintenance facility. This is for access by heavy equipment to the bayou.

 

This is a textbook example of environmentalist cherry picking things which they want to hear and then regurgitating it without any context. It's no different than if you tried talking to an extreme creationist!

 

The plans are actually return the bayou's natural twist and turns meaning this is a complete reversal of flood prevention policy which is fantastic! It means that instead of fighting the flood they are going to instead use natural forces.

 

I mean lets not play around here. All that vegetation that is there is not "virgin" xD pffffft give me a break.

 

4. I'm ashamed that so many of these people are so easily fooled by this nonsense and it apparently has over 1000 likes!

 

I don't understand why environmentalism hasn't yet been deemed a cult because that's what it is! What people should practice is good stewardship of the land/environment we live in as well as common sense conservation.

 

Now of course this is just my opinion on the matter, and maybe I am wrong, but from what I have read and analyzed this is actually for the betterment.

 

Not to rain on your hysteria, but you do realize that the group that's trying to do these things that you applaud - is an environmental group?

[arche_757]

Nena, Yes I realize that Memorial Park was a gift, I just question why the city has done as little as possible for it over the years.  Take out the golf course and Memorial Park is what 85% or so raw woodland (more like raw scrubby trees with undergrowth).  It is hardly a "city park" and more of a green-space.

 

Does anyone else feel like Memorial Park is vastly under utilized?

[Luminare]

Not to rain on your hysteria, but you do realize that the group that's trying to do these things that you applaud - is an environmental group?

 

You sir need to reread what I posted. Plus you need to learn the definition of hysteria. I show no support for what this group is saying or doing. I support the city and the development plan. I'm certainly not hysterical, and I'm only providing rational for why these people are insane.

 

The funnest stuff is on the fb page. You could just imagine them with tinfoil hats lol. One commenter was like, 'oh this looks like a great spot some condo's'. The rest are nothing but sheep.

 

Honestly, I just can't stand ignorance of this caliber.

[NenaE]

Arche_757 - I do agree that it is under utilized. I wonder if restrictions keep the city from doing too much. Or if they just chose to put all the money into Hermann Park.

[IronTiger]

It depends on what you mean by "underutilized". Well, I suppose a better idea would be some sort of natural area that's protected from development.

There's a bit of a rift between people who want "parks" and people who want "nature". To be "useful", a park should either be clear-cut for fields and sporting uses, or they want to hack through and make a lighted, paved bike path. That's what separates Hermann from Memorial. Hermann is manicured with its zoo, mini-train, and public spaces, while Memorial features a few areas for sports but offers mostly untouched woodlands. Frankly, I prefer Memorial, though the drought has made it look a bit ragged.

[arche_757]

I've always thought Memorial is a dumpy park.  Central Park in NYC has "woodlands" too, not every inch of Memorial Park need be paved or plowed over for playing fields, but there should be some space reserved for public use that isn't entirely overgrown.

 

I think its time the city get rid of the golf course and open that up for use as a set of public lawns and playing fields.  Run maybe a couple additional hike and bike paths around through the thicket and allow access to the Bayou in places.  I'm not advocating for complete deforestation, just take out a little space for people to use.  Hermann is a nice park, and far more accessible - which is what a park is supposed to be.  Memorial is more of a buffer between the Intersections of I-10 and 610, which is not great.

 

Also, imagine if the north and west sides of the park had land around them for people to live by... instead we have 2 major freeways that will never ever, ever go away.  How sad.  Great planning by the folks who laid out the interstates back in the day.

[Heightsite]

I guess I should have called this post save Buffalo Bayou in Memorial Park.

Many RO residents enjoyed the privacy the bayou offered behind their homes and the country club. A mutual agreement was reached so they have bowed out. Ironic since many are behind "Trees for Houston" and have donated a handsome sum to reforest the park.

I think I'll enjoy the entertainment area of the bayou from Shepherd to 77002, but would equally enjoy the "wild" side of this small area of a natural habit between 610 and Shepherd.

The map shows nearly all of the tree line along that stretch of the bayou will be removed. Seems like when Allison hit, the bayou along the park didn't suffer much of the flood's wrath but rather inundated downtown when it met up with White Oak Bayou.

It's all about making money, but improving the bayou along Memorial Park to create more gritty bike trails, public launch areas for kayaking, bird trails, etc. for those of us that enjoy a natural environment as opposed to a profitable river walk knock-off is quite appealing to me.

[Heightsite]

Check out this website to see more plans for the bayou http://www.buffalobayou.org

[arche_757]

It's all about making money, but improving the bayou along Memorial Park to create more gritty bike trails, public launch areas for kayaking, bird trails, etc. for those of us that enjoy a natural environment as opposed to a profitable river walk knock-off is quite appealing to me.

 

Who says it needs to be a "Riverwalk knock off?"

 

I do not understand the people - and there are a lot of them - that see that stretch of the Bayou, and its complete inaccessiblity save from the views of the uberwealth in River Oaks the purpose of not having even a decent dirt/gravel path along the Bayou?

 

How natural is that stretch anyway?  Much of what is now Houston was flat coastal plains with few trees (look at the old pictures from the turn of last century - such as those showing the Rice Institute for proof).

 

Here is what I would like to see done on Memorial Park:  cover over parts of Memorial and Woodway with useable spaces and safe pedestrain crossings.  Do away with the golf course and open those spaces up for strolling, playing fields and the like.  Add a minimal impact path along the Bayou on the south side of the park - hopefully continue that along the way eventually all the way to the Beltway at some point.  Everything that gets built or landscaped ought to be low-impact vegitation, walkways etc.

 

What is it about the vast unreachable spaces of Memorial Park that you (and others) so enjoy?  The trees as viewed while speeding down Memorial or Woodway, or sitting in traffic at 610/I-10?

 

[luciaphile]

You sir need to reread what I posted. Plus you need to learn the definition of hysteria. I show no support for what this group is saying or doing. I support the city and the development plan. I'm certainly not hysterical, and I'm only providing rational for why these people are insane.

 

The funnest stuff is on the fb page. You could just imagine them with tinfoil hats lol. One commenter was like, 'oh this looks like a great spot some condo's'. The rest are nothing but sheep.

 

Honestly, I just can't stand ignorance of this caliber.

 

http://www.bayoupreservation.org/

 

By any definition, an environmental group.

[IronTiger]

What is it about the vast unreachable spaces of Memorial Park that you (and others) so enjoy? The trees as viewed while speeding down Memorial or Woodway, or sitting in traffic at 610/I-10?

Any state or national park is going to have "unreachable" spaces, and even though I am no environmentalist, I think it should be left untouched and natural. And while it's not your intent, I've NEVER regretted seeing undeveloped areas along highways.

[arche_757]

Any state or national park is going to have "unreachable" spaces, and even though I am no environmentalist, I think it should be left untouched and natural. And while it's not your intent, I've NEVER regretted seeing undeveloped areas along highways.

 

This is a city park, in fact its Houston's "other" city park aside from Hermann Park!  Access to hike/bike paths in National Parks is better than what Memorial Park offers.

 

I don't regret seeing undeveloped areas along highways, but this is a poorly planned urban park along a poorly planned stretch of freeway.  Surely City of Houston planners could have anticipated people prefering to live by, and have access to a city park?

 

You mistake my intent here.  I say "Memorial Park is not nearly good enough"  you think "He wants to have the trees cut down and open everything up"

 

I dont' want to tear down the trees, I do want to remove some of the kudzoo like undergrowth and allow people perhaps 3-4 addtional paths through the forrest to reach the Bayou and be able to put-in a kayak or canoe, and also walk from Downtown to at least the 610 feeder roads right now (eventually to Beltway 8).  That's what I want.  Memorial Park as it stands is far less useable to anyone than what it ought to be.

[Luminare]

http://www.bayoupreservation.org/

 

By any definition, an environmental group.

 

Ok since someone is not looking at the bigger picture here. Let me explain myself.

 

I'm against "environmentalist" like the fundamentalist kind who only attack on these issues just to get attention, or because they just like trees, or believe humans are all evil, or worship mother nature, or run these kinds of groups like cults.

 

As someone who works in the profession of building/designing buildings that will sometimes go on undeveloped sites its important for an architect to develop a sense of environmental stewardship as well as principals of good conservation.

 

What these people practice in groups like Save the Bayou are not that. They are drones who do not govern themselves by logical reason and are instead guided by pure emotion which leads them to formulate silly opinions about the earth and the environment which are both naive and completely ridiculous.

 

A professor I had in college once told me that "tree huggers" are dumb (my synopsis). You are not going to positively change the environment, protect, preserve....whatever it is by going up to a tree and hugging it. By the way, he wasn't some raging conservative or bagging money from big oil. He was professor of Building systems at my architecture school who truly believed in global warming and was very liberal. He also had also developed many HVAC systems for 20-30 years.

 

Environmentalism that we know today is not the environmentalism that existed before the 1960's and 1970's. Probably the first great "environmentalist" was Teddy Roosevelt. However if you asked him what an environmentalist was in his time he would probably tell you it was about conservation, and stewardship. Fast forward to the radical counter movements of the 1960's and 1970's when this wasn't the case. Instead environmentalist was essentially co-op'ed by progressives. They changed the notion (just like they changed the idea of liberalism) and brought about environmentalist movements that no longer were environmental goal oriented, but politically oriented. Not to mention they were no longer about a balance between human and nature, but a world view which humans were the enemy and nature was elevated to the position of deity making it pretty much a sin for humans to do anything to the environment because we were essentially evil.

 

You can have an environmental group, but that doesn't mean that it is "Environmentalist" in the notion that many think about today. BPA is a conservationist group as well as restorationist one. It seeks to bring back a natural order of things through human intervention. While it is always smart to ask questions and not blindly follow something, it's another to completely write it off on the basis that "oh they are going to cut all these trees! It must be bad! Protest!" BPA isn't perfect, but its logical and is a sound solution to not only Buffalo Bayou, but probably all our bayous going forward.

[IronTiger]

This is a city park, in fact its Houston's "other" city park aside from Hermann Park!  Access to hike/bike paths in National Parks is better than what Memorial Park offers.

 

I don't regret seeing undeveloped areas along highways, but this is a poorly planned urban park along a poorly planned stretch of freeway.  Surely City of Houston planners could have anticipated people prefering to live by, and have access to a city park?

 

You mistake my intent here.  I say "Memorial Park is not nearly good enough"  you think "He wants to have the trees cut down and open everything up"

 

I dont' want to tear down the trees, I do want to remove some of the kudzoo like undergrowth and allow people perhaps 3-4 addtional paths through the forrest to reach the Bayou and be able to put-in a kayak or canoe, and also walk from Downtown to at least the 610 feeder roads right now (eventually to Beltway 8).  That's what I want.  Memorial Park as it stands is far less useable to anyone than what it ought to be.

Houston (and by extension Harris County) have several other parks that are more than a block, and I admit that Memorial Park is one of the largest parks. As for biking paths, there are paths that go from Memorial Park to 610 quite easily, unless you want something that bypasses the frontage roads quite easily like a footbridge.

Otherwise, some of your arguments seem a bit silly: with the exception of that little cluster to the west of 610 (presumably cut through to the Northwest Transit Center if METRO gets their way), all of the park is contained to the southeast of 610 and Interstate 10. The only that does cut through is the railroad, which since you weren't complaining about I'm going to assume doesn't matter.

I suppose if you wanted a place to put in a canoe, that should be achievable if you drive down the power line ROW to the bayou line. Any hike/bike paths along the bayou won't be contiguous with Buffalo Bayou Park, because there's properties that directly abut the bayou. Probably best to widen the south sidewalk of Memorial or something.

What I would like to see is segregated hike/bike trails. Nothing like hiking and having to jump out of the way due to mountain bikers, steep drop-offs be damned.

Edited June 25, 2014 by IronTiger

[arche_757]

I suppose if you wanted a place to put in a canoe, that should be achievable if you drive down the power line ROW to the bayou line. Any hike/bike paths along the bayou won't be contiguous with Buffalo Bayou Park, because there's properties that directly abut the bayou. Probably best to widen the south sidewalk of Memorial or something.

What I would like to see is segregated hike/bike trails. Nothing like hiking and having to jump out of the way due to mountain bikers, steep drop-offs be damned.

 

I'm not sure what seems silly?  Please explain.

 

What I want:

-A few more paths for hiking and biking.  (I agree the dumpy bike paths that drop off 4' all over are not adequate hike paths)

-Roads covered/lower in a few spots to allow greater continuity of the park. (Allow for TOTAL pedestrian access to the park in as many places as possible.  Currently Memorial Park caters more to the automobile than to the pedestrian.  I realize there's not a choo-choo running through the park, but we should be able to reduce some of the visual blight that is Memorial Drive and Woodway)

-That railroad cutting through really does suck.  No getting around that. (that railroad sucks, it cuts through Memorial Park, isolates Highland Village from other meaningful developments and is in general ugly - ugly - ugly).

-One put-in for kayaks and the like on the bayou.  Just one. (is that hard to visualize?)

-Better overall planning for the parking and layout of public spaces, so much of what was/has been done at Memorial lacks real direction. (overall the park needs to be re-done in the same guise as Hermann Park.  A masterplan that addresses the shortcomings and moves to remedy them would be great.)

-Clean up the park.  Its a mess.  (I think removing much of the visual blight that is the roads bisecting the park in half would go a long way to helping here.  That and cleaning up some of the underbrush - not ALL the underbrush, some of it.)

 

Does that not make sense?  You mean to tell me the park - as it is today - is 100% perfect?  Needs zero work?

 

If I could ever figure out a way to upload images from scans and the like on my computer I could illustrate what I'm talking about.

 

 

[arche_757]

Otherwise, some of your arguments seem a bit silly: with the exception of that little cluster to the west of 610 (presumably cut through to the Northwest Transit Center if METRO gets their way), all of the park is contained to the southeast of 610 and Interstate 10. The only that does cut through is the railroad, which since you weren't complaining about I'm going to assume doesn't matter.

 

So you think its great that the one of the largest parks in town has on two of its ~4ish (since its not a rectangle) sides major freeways that not only form a border with the park, but offer zero chance at any residential or commerical ever having been developed next to the park?  Personally I think that is just bad city planning.

 

I will add - the park has its champions.  Clearly people like it as is.  I'm just saying it could be better if some issues were addressed.  Again - I'd love to see the existing city golf course gone and replaced by a myriad of playing fields, lake, walking areas and the like.  It would be like a park within a park.  Think of the "great lawn" it could offer people of this city.

 

I recall something about a masterplan being discussed years ago - and the golf course was mentioned as a potential casualty so maybe that's in the works?

Edited June 25, 2014 by arche_757

[IronTiger]

Well, as for better bike paths, I agree--the drop-offs are meant as hiking paths and should be signed as such. But mountain bikers still do it anyway. Some paths actually meant for biking (maybe with some challenges) would be nice.
But when you talk about covering roads you're not talking about a project that would be equal to a bunch of other minor projects. There's a fairly wide path next to Memorial that goes under the railroad and bypasses the road. There's already a curving bridge that goes over Memorial. 
I'm saying that I agree with you about kayaks and canoes, it could be accessed through the power line right of way that parallels the railroad. That could be paved and everything! It would be fairly cheap and wouldn't require a lot.
Maybe Memorial Park could benefit from some overall planning but I'm recoiling at the idea it should be Hermann Park II.
I rather like the roads going through Memorial Park which you claim is visual blight. Frankly, for all the problems I dislike with Central Park (in New York), it does have roads in it. Underbrush should be cleared out periodically as well, but is that really that "worth it" in terms of how Memorial Park "should be"? Sure, it's nice, but that's a continuous maintenance thing and not a one-time thing.
 

[IronTiger]

By the way, if you don't mind me asking, what happened between October 2013 and March 2014? It seems like a lot of trees died anyway somehow (Google Earth)

[arche_757]

I don't want Hermann Park II.  You're mistaking the paths running parallel to Memorial Drive as the paths I'm talking about.  I'm talking about creating new spaces in the park by covering over parts of Memorial and Woodway with north-south running parkscape and creating new north-south running paths, and submerging the roadway in a few places to do so.  Now - I'll grant you that's an expensive and unlikely project (but this is a forum and not reality so I can ponder my thoughts and imagine what could be).

 

As for the planning... I'd like to see some more naturally integrated parking lots - even some porous surfaces for them.  More walk-paths througout and my idea for a great lawn on what is now a golf course.

 

Central Park does have roads crossing it, but they are cleverly hidden for most of the way.  I imagine Memorial Park as something more like Central Park - mostly "natural space" with a few man made areas including perhaps a water feature than can even run to the bayou (perhaps that can include a "launch"?).  Again, not advocating for the trees to all get swept aside.

 

You know what happened.

Edited June 25, 2014 by arche_757

[Luminare]

I don't want Hermann Park II.  You're mistaking the paths running parallel to Memorial Drive as the paths I'm talking about.  I'm talking about creating new spaces in the park by covering over parts of Memorial and Woodway with north-south running parkscape and creating new north-south running paths, and submerging the roadway in a few places to do so.  Now - I'll grant you that's an expensive and unlikely project (but this is a forum and not reality so I can ponder my thoughts and imagine what could be).

 

As for the planning... I'd like to see some more naturally integrated parking lots - even some porous surfaces for them.  More walk-paths througout and my idea for a great lawn on what is now a golf course.

 

Central Park does have roads crossing it, but they are cleverly hidden for most of the way.  I imagine Memorial Park as something more like Central Park - mostly "natural space" with a few man made areas including perhaps a water feature than can even run to the bayou (perhaps that can include a "launch"?).  Again, not advocating for the trees to all get swept aside.

 

You know what happened.

 

Maybe I can do a couple of sketches of maybe what you are talking about, scan them and post them, because there really does seem to be a disconnect here.

 

Also I made a rather large comment post onto Save the Bayou's fb page and just received an equally lengthy response which I will plant on this thread which can further this debate.

[arche_757]

I was not clear in that I don't want Hermann and Memorial to be identical - just that I want Memorial Park to be a little more than 2 jogging paths, some mountain bike trails and a public golf course.  As it can be much more than that.  I tend to think that it would be easy to implement some new paths and even access to the bayou without spending too much money.

 

I still want a continuous bike/hike path all the way along Buffalo Bayou to the Beltway.

[Ross]

By the way, if you don't mind me asking, what happened between October 2013 and March 2014? It seems like a lot of trees died anyway somehow (Google Earth)

 

Victims of the drought. A lot of trees died.

[Ross]

So you think its great that the one of the largest parks in town has on two of its ~4ish (since its not a rectangle) sides major freeways that not only form a border with the park, but offer zero chance at any residential or commerical ever having been developed next to the park?  Personally I think that is just bad city planning.

 

I will add - the park has its champions.  Clearly people like it as is.  I'm just saying it could be better if some issues were addressed.  Again - I'd love to see the existing city golf course gone and replaced by a myriad of playing fields, lake, walking areas and the like.  It would be like a park within a park.  Think of the "great lawn" it could offer people of this city.

 

I recall something about a masterplan being discussed years ago - and the golf course was mentioned as a potential casualty so maybe that's in the works?

 

You really want to close the most popular golf course in the city? That course is packed, plus it is a great course. It's also been there since the 30's, and is historic. Last I heard, it also makes a profit.

 

[Heightsite]

Plus there's a Beck's Prime at the clubhouse. Nice place for lunch.

[Heightsite]

As for the other side, a well maintained swimming area similar to the Bellaire Aquatic Center would be on my wish list.