cottonmather0 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 As mentioned elsewhere, I'm currently wrapping up remodel project at my home. I happened to be here this morning getting caught up on some yardwork when I came out of the garage and noticed a woman standing in my driveway with a clipboard. She explained that she was from HCAD (as did her windbreaker and the sign on her truck) and she said she was there take a look at the progress of the work. I told her like hell she was and told her to come back later after asking for permission. She seemed shocked at my attitude, "uh, we don't make appointments!" but got in her truck and left. I called my contractor and he acted like it was no big deal, said they did it all the time, but was unsure if it was just something they did or if we were actually required to comply. So as far as I am concerned, the city building inspector has a legitimate reason to show up like this, but HCAD isn't interested in public health or safety, HCAD just wants my money and does this because they can get away with it, not because it's necessary. To me, HCAD is just another government agent and needs my permission or a warrant to search my property. Showing up to snoop for tax purposes in FEBRUARY is not a reasonable search. It's not like we have anything to hide, I just don't like the idea of them doing this and feel I am within my rights to refuse them access to the property without asking permission first. Certainly they need to have the proper information to correctly assess the house's value, but the whole "surprise" thing is what is really irking me here. Am I off base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 no need to overreact. if you have a permit, HCAD already knows you're doing work on your house. most of the time, HCAD's stops are usually just drivebys to verify that what they have down is correct and the homeowner never knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm1fd Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I think you're overreacting. As much as we hate to have our taxes raised, you are the one that is having the work done, and the permits pulled, so it shouldn't come as a big surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 As mentioned elsewhere, I'm currently wrapping up remodel project at my home. I happened to be here this morning getting caught up on some yardwork when I came out of the garage and noticed a woman standing in my driveway with a clipboard. She explained that she was from HCAD (as did her windbreaker and the sign on her truck) and she said she was there take a look at the progress of the work. I told her like hell she was and told her to come back later after asking for permission. She seemed shocked at my attitude, "uh, we don't make appointments!" but got in her truck and left. I called my contractor and he acted like it was no big deal, said they did it all the time, but was unsure if it was just something they did or if we were actually required to comply. So as far as I am concerned, the city building inspector has a legitimate reason to show up like this, but HCAD isn't interested in public health or safety, HCAD just wants my money and does this because they can get away with it, not because it's necessary. To me, HCAD is just another government agent and needs my permission or a warrant to search my property. Showing up to snoop for tax purposes in FEBRUARY is not a reasonable search. It's not like we have anything to hide, I just don't like the idea of them doing this and feel I am within my rights to refuse them access to the property without asking permission first. Certainly they need to have the proper information to correctly assess the house's value, but the whole "surprise" thing is what is really irking me here. Am I off base?No, you're on the mark. NEVER under any circumstances let an HCAD rep on your property. They can legally look at your property from the edge of the property line, and will be so bold on occaision as to measure the exterior dimensions of your improvements if they think that they can get away with it, but they have no authority to trespass. You were well within your rights to keep them off your property.If there is something on the interior or that they cannot see from the edge of your property line that could lower your appraised value, it is best to take photos of it and protest your taxes, letting them only see what you want them to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cottonmather0 Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 Thank you for the replies. If she had just parked at the curb, I would not have been so annoyed, but she was in the backyard when I caught her and seemed rather indignant that I told her to leave. I have nothing to hide, but the West Texas boy in me says that she had no business just walking in like she did. Government is government, my taxes are paid, and HCAD will get a copy of the bank's appraisal when I file my annual protest this summer. That's all they need and that's all they'll get. Like I said, the building inspector has a legitimate reason to surprise me, the tax assessor does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieDidIt Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Thank you for the replies. If she had just parked at the curb, I would not have been so annoyed, but she was in the backyard when I caught her and seemed rather indignant that I told her to leave. I have nothing to hide, but the West Texas boy in me says that she had no business just walking in like she did. Government is government, my taxes are paid, and HCAD will get a copy of the bank's appraisal when I file my annual protest this summer. That's all they need and that's all they'll get. Like I said, the building inspector has a legitimate reason to surprise me, the tax assessor does not.They did this to us at our house in Tanglewood years ago. They came in the backyard--through gate and then complained about the killer dog. They were so bold as to ask to come in the house.......umm no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston1stWordOnTheMoon Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I think i would have to them to "step". That is a bit bold of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapata Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 ..... she was in the backyard when I caught her....WOW...!!! In the backyard....??? I'll call that trespassing...!!! I'm not sure if they are allowed to do that, They normally park in the curbside to take notes.Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cottonmather0 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Thank you for the replies. If she had just parked at the curb, I would not have been so annoyed, but she was in the backyard when I caught her and seemed rather indignant that I told her to leave. I have nothing to hide, but the West Texas boy in me says that she had no business just walking in like she did. Government is government, my taxes are paid, and HCAD will get a copy of the bank's appraisal when I file my annual protest this summer. That's all they need and that's all they'll get. Like I said, the building inspector has a legitimate reason to surprise me, the tax assessor does not.Don't tell my wife but I ran another one of these flunkies off this morning. Trying to be the law-abiding city resident that I am, I followed the rules last November and pulled a permit for $2000 of storm damage repair to replace all of the soffit and fascia around the perimeter of the house. Silly me, I guess I accidentally checked the box on the application that said "secret bedroom addition included."Around 7:45 this morning I noticed an HCAD vehicle in front of my house and at straight up 8:00 in the middle of my son's bath the doorbell rang and there was a guy standing there with a clipboard and a measuring tape!!!. He asked if he could walk around the house and take some measurements and I dropped a few choice (grownup) words on him and told him to get lost. MAYBE if they hadn't monkeyed with our property value so much last year and then if the "independent" board hadn't just ignored my presentation and just conjured up some magic numbers during our hearing last year, I might have been a bit more accommodating. I realize that this guy was just doing his job, but they have a lot of nerve and hubris to come and check up on rinky dink repair permits like ours.And before anyone asks, our appraisal was already at the yearly cap, regardless of the "market value," not to mention that the house is for sale and the new owner will just get reset at whatever purchase price he pays, so I'm not really worried about any repercussions from this incident. In fact, it actually felt pretty good after the way we were treated back in August at our hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanS Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 No, you're on the mark. NEVER under any circumstances let an HCAD rep on your property. They can legally look at your property from the edge of the property line, and will be so bold on occaision as to measure the exterior dimensions of your improvements if they think that they can get away with it, but they have no authority to trespass. You were well within your rights to keep them off your property.If there is something on the interior or that they cannot see from the edge of your property line that could lower your appraised value, it is best to take photos of it and protest your taxes, letting them only see what you want them to see.Please provide a link to a legal source that backs up this claim. That is, that HCAD cannot take external measurements of your home, without your permission. If the utility company has easement rights, I wonder why HCAD would not also have similar rights, for tax purposes. Again, please post a link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editor Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Please provide a link to a legal source that backs up this claim. That is, that HCAD cannot take external measurements of your home, without your permission. If the utility company has easement rights, I wonder why HCAD would not also have similar rights, for tax purposes. Again, please post a link.Can't link to something that doesn't exist. The utility company has an easement, so you can link to that. HCAD has no right to step on private property, so you can't link to it. HCAD can take its measurements from the edge of the property line just like the neighbors or any other curious party can. There are very few circumstances when any organization, government or civilian, can walk on your property. HCAD is not a public safety agency. I applaud Cotton for running them off his property.I look forward to RedScare providing some clarity on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieDidIt Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 HCAD is getting desperate. They've been crawling all over our neighborhood. Those little white Prius cars are parked everywhere with guys with cameras and clip boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cottonmather0 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Please provide a link to a legal source that backs up this claim. That is, that HCAD cannot take external measurements of your home, without your permission. If the utility company has easement rights, I wonder why HCAD would not also have similar rights, for tax purposes. Again, please post a link.That would be the 4th Amendment to US Constitution. They CAN take measurements that are publicly visible from the street or that would otherwise not be trespassing, but they cannot enter your home or climb a fence or otherwise violate your privacy. If, after I shut the door on him, the guy had walked around the front yard and taken measurements it would have been perfectly legal, but he just got in the car and left (I guess because he was pretty much in shock at how rude I was). Although he didn't get that far, I am pretty sure he was going to ask for permission to go into the backyard and was planning to use that measuring tape to measure the perimeter of the house and update their records at the District. He didn't care whether the repairs were finished (what effect would they have on the value of the house except to get back to where it was?), he was there so that they could have more information the next time someone protested the property assessment of this house. The permit is just an excuse and a signal to them to make sure they're getting as much money as they can. Bryan, the 2 differences with your scenario is that 1.) the the utility companies own the easements and grant you the use of them when you buy the property (that's why they can come cut down your trees if they interfere with power lines) and 2.) they are NOT THE GOVERNMENT. In the original post I wrote a couple a years ago, what REALLY made me mad was that the lady didn't even ring the doorbell or call or otherwise get permission. The house was under construction and she just walked in to take a look to check on the pace of construction (and jam as much into the current year's assessment as possible) and to see just how nice our countertops and fixtures were. Most people don't seem to mind, but to me that us a huge infringement of my property rights.EDIT: Does anyone know why I am viewing all posts this morning in the "collapsed" view? I don't like it and can't figure out how to change it back - no options on my controls as near as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 EDIT: Does anyone know why I am viewing all posts this morning in the "collapsed" view? I don't like it and can't figure out how to change it back - no options on my controls as near as I can tell.in upper right of thread go to options-> display modes-> standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Please provide a link to a legal source that backs up this claim. That is, that HCAD cannot take external measurements of your home, without your permission. If the utility company has easement rights, I wonder why HCAD would not also have similar rights, for tax purposes. Again, please post a link.I would like to see the link as well. I have always heard that HCAD employees are like vampires, you have to invite them into your home or they can't come in.But the idea of them measuring from OUTSIDE the house, and OUTSIDE the property could not be stopped. I am just not sure about them measuring from INSIDE your property line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cottonmather0 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 in upper right of thread go to options-> display modes-> standard.EXCELLENT. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark F. Barnes Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 HCAD or any County Appraisal Officials cannot go inside houses without permission. They can estimate external measurements from property lines, but cannot cross the property lines. Appraisers have the legal authority to enter businesses for tax valuation purposes, but cannot enter a private residence without the owner's permission. This can be a two edged sword. If you piss them off enough, they can set your appraisal at whatever amount, and then you are forced to go through the lengthy appeal process, and then open your self up for a review, which can open you up to a closer look. Next thing you know you have a County Judge granted HCAD permission for all sorts of scrutiny. It can get sticky if they really want to do it. According to Jim Robinson, "There's no statutory authority to go into anybodies house. I don't let my people go in, because in an urban environment and that can raise problems I don't even want to deal with." So if an appraiser stepped foot in your home, I think you can complain to him or Peggy Mason, Taxpayer Liaison Officer. (713) 812-5800. All other personnel of the appraisal office are employed by and accountable to the chief appraiser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerlooper Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Access to the exterior of a property for measuring purposes will become moot at some point, as they have hi-res satellite imagery that can measure your deck handrail to the inch. There is similar imagery available for bidding roof jobs without leaving your desk. And SWAT uses it to check out all sides of your swanky castle before they come a-knockin'. Those fuzzy images you get on g00gle-earth and other free services are nothing compared to what is available by subscription. What really goads HCAD are the countless thousands of "missing" bathrooms. Just a cursory comparison between HCAD records and HAR listings would reveal all sorts of unreported footage and improvements. I bought a permit a couple of years ago for a partial remodel. This perky HCAD lady was on the sidewalk within 24 hrs of the permit being finalized. She did not try to get inside and just asked a few questions. I played dumb and she nodded, and they still jacked me up the value of the permit. OK. HCAD has such accurate measurements of my house and garage that they must have come on location at some point in the past few years with tape measures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanS Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Can't link to something that doesn't exist. The utility company has an easement, so you can link to that. HCAD has no right to step on private property, so you can't link to it. HCAD can take its measurements from the edge of the property line just like the neighbors or any other curious party can. There are very few circumstances when any organization, government or civilian, can walk on your property. HCAD is not a public safety agency. I applaud Cotton for running them off his property. I look forward to RedScare providing some clarity on this issue. I find that hard to believe. For example, this is what they do in Arkansas: http://www.co.benton.ar.us/Assessor/faq.html#authority What gives the assessor the authority to come on to someone's property? ^ Arkansas law makes it the assessor's responsibility to physically inspect property to determine what is there that gives the value. A.C.A. 26-26-91((1) states: "For the purpose of enabling the assessor to determine just and equitable values of property, he is authorized, and it shall be his duty, to enter upon and make such personal inspections thereof as he shall deem necessary." I would find it surprising if Texas did not have a simlar law on the books. I would gather there probably is. Because if there were not... wouldn't someone, angry at HCAD "trespassers" have filed a law suit by now? As angry as we are at the tax man, surely someone would have sued by now, establishing precedent to keep them off your property. So yes, there are very few circumstances when any organization, government or civilian, can walk on your property, but in AK, the tax assessor has the legal authority to do so. Also sounds like they can "enter" your property up there. That would be the 4th Amendment to US Constitution. They CAN take measurements that are publicly visible from the street or that would otherwise not be trespassing, but they cannot enter your home or climb a fence or otherwise violate your privacy. If, after I shut the door on him, the guy had walked around the front yard and taken measurements it would have been perfectly legal, but he just got in the car and left (I guess because he was pretty much in shock at how rude I was). Although he didn't get that far, I am pretty sure he was going to ask for permission to go into the backyard and was planning to use that measuring tape to measure the perimeter of the house and update their records at the District. He didn't care whether the repairs were finished (what effect would they have on the value of the house except to get back to where it was?), he was there so that they could have more information the next time someone protested the property assessment of this house. The permit is just an excuse and a signal to them to make sure they're getting as much money as they can. Bryan, the 2 differences with your scenario is that 1.) the the utility companies own the easements and grant you the use of them when you buy the property (that's why they can come cut down your trees if they interfere with power lines) and 2.) they are NOT THE GOVERNMENT. In the original post I wrote a couple a years ago, what REALLY made me mad was that the lady didn't even ring the doorbell or call or otherwise get permission. The house was under construction and she just walked in to take a look to check on the pace of construction (and jam as much into the current year's assessment as possible) and to see just how nice our countertops and fixtures were. Most people don't seem to mind, but to me that us a huge infringement of my property rights. EDIT: Does anyone know why I am viewing all posts this morning in the "collapsed" view? I don't like it and can't figure out how to change it back - no options on my controls as near as I can tell. Understand. However, if TX has a law similiar to AK... sounds like it was perfectly legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editor Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Looks like Bryan is correct, as of 1995.Any appraisal district employee who enters onto a taxpayer's property to inspect it for property tax purposes does not commit a trespass or invade the taxpayer's right to privacy. The Property Tax Code does not limit the appraisal district to one inspection visit only. Hawkins v. Groom, 893 S.W.2d 123 (Tex. App.-Eastland 1995, no writ).Source: http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/proptax/tc02/ch22a.htmIn the words of Snuffy Smith, "Durned revenuers!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Looks like Bryan is correct, as of 1995.Source: http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/proptax/tc02/ch22a.htmIn the words of Snuffy Smith, "Durned revenuers!"Editor is correct, but remember that "onto" and "into" signify different things. The revenuer may enter onto property to inspect and measure, but may not enter INTO a residence without permission or a court order. Of course, the property owner always has the right to register his displeaure with the revenuer, as cotton did, and achieve the same results. Whether this causes other inconveniences down the road is up for consideration, though, as Mark pointed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cottonmather0 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Editor is correct, but remember that "onto" and "into" signify different things. The revenuer may enter onto property to inspect and measure, but may not enter INTO a residence without permission or a court order. Of course, the property owner always has the right to register his displeaure with the revenuer, as cotton did, and achieve the same results. Whether this causes other inconveniences down the road is up for consideration, though, as Mark pointed out.Like I said, our appraisal is already capped and home sales prices in this neighborhood just keep going higher and higher, regardless of what is happening nationally, so I seriously doubt that there is much that they could do to us. And in any case, we're selling the house and HCAD will just have to accept the sales price next year for the new owner.After the railroading that we endured during our appeal over the summer it was quite cathartic to run the guy off - the look on the dude's face was classic when I told him I wasn't going to help him and for him to "just go away" and then shut the door in his face. Seriously, a $2000 repair permit for hurricane damage and they want to come inspect my property and remeasure everything? The COH is lucky I even pulled the permit in the first place. Jeez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipper Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Timely topic. I saw an HCAD jeep out in Westbury today.flipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Timely topic. I saw an HCAD jeep out in Westbury today.flipper 3 years ago, when I was having my driveway poured, I saw a white van with a square hole on each side and an HCAD sticker on the door. I guessed that they were taking pics of houses, but had never seen a pic of my house until I protested this past year. There was that pic, complete with the driveway guys standing around. Luckily, they took it before I had the house painted, so the house itself still looks like ass. When I tell them the value is to high, I don't even have to show them my pics. Their own photo makes them cringe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 when i was there in dec, they were also using google street pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Rich Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 To me, HCAD is just another government agent and needs my permission or a warrant to search my property.Good for you.I've witnessed some kind of city tax inspector come into a work office, and start counting desks and computers. There's actually some kind of city business tax based upon such things...To heck with 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codewarrior77006 Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Good for you.I've witnessed some kind of city tax inspector come into a work office, and start counting desks and computers. There's actually some kind of city business tax based upon such things...To heck with 'em!Yup, you ran into the Business Personal Property folks. That's their job, to count desks, chairs, equipment, etc. because some business owner did not file a rendition of the business's property in order to pay taxes on it and HCAD determined there might be cause for an audit.As for an appraiser entering your property, ...legally... they can do so to measure the 'exterior' of the home, NOT the interior. A good Residential Appraiser will first knock and talk to the property owner. If denied entry, they'll generally tell you they can use aerial photography (Pictometry Corp) but it would be in your best interest to give them the 5 minutes they need to take the measurements.Now, the latest scoop is that NO appraiser is EVER suppose to go into the back yard without specific permission from the home owner. It's not a trespassing issue in as much a safety issue. Too many appraisers have walked into bubba/open-mouthbreathing/homeowners brandishing guns despite the fact they knocked on the door, knocked on the fences and announced their entry. I feel sorry for the bubba home owner in that case. That appraiser is likely to make his 'little house on the bayou' look like a River Oaks mansion when he's done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codewarrior77006 Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Oh and BTW, HCAD appraisers use their own vehicles to do field work. If you saw a white Prius or a green jeep, it's because that appraiser owns it.My favorite is the guy (gal) in the Saab convertible working Acres Homes! I did a double take when I drove by that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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