Abortion Medical Procedures

[CDeb]

Good to see that the baby brain suckers have been practicing their inane rhetoric.

[nmainguy]

Good to see that the baby brain suckers have been practicing their inane rhetoric.

In the first place, Ricco requested we refrain from childish name calling. So far we've been able to honor his request.

In the second place, would you care to expand on your point in a more civilized fashion?

[CDeb]

Ricco requested we refrain from childish name calling. So far we've been able to honor his request.

Oh really?

The Taliban wing of the R-Party...

Silly me, I keep forgetting that for some people, comparing the quite large portion of the American citizenry that would like to see an end to the killing of children in the womb with a regime that murdered non-believers by the thousands is not only un-childish, but quite civilized.

In the second place, would you care to expand on your point in a more civilized fashion?

Just enjoying a laugh at your expense. The rabidly pro-abortion crowd is heavily invested in villification of its opponents to justify its unjustifiable position and your word choice throughout this thread is indicative of such. My word choice was a satire of your own, which, in hindsight, didn't translate well in this medium.

Edited January 23, 2007 by CDeb

[nmainguy]

Oh really?

Silly me, I keep forgetting that for some people, comparing the quite large portion of the American citizenry that would like to see an end to the killing of children in the womb with a regime that murdered non-believers by the thousands is not only un-childish, but quite civilized.

Just enjoying a laugh at your expense. The rabidly pro-abortion crowd is heavily invested in villification of its opponents to justify its unjustifiable position and your word choice throughout this thread is indicative of such. My word choice was a satire of your own, which, in hindsight, didn't translate well in this medium.

Could you document anyone that has said they are pro-abortion? I can't name a soul who has ever advocated abortion. I can document any number that have said they are pro-life AND pro-choice. The pro-choice side made a mistake when they didn't call the anti-choice advocates on their nomenclature. There has always been and will always be abortion. You can have it safe, rare and legal or illegal in the alley with a coat hanger as the anti-choicers have choosen. You would be well served to cease your advocacy of deadly back-alley abortions-whether you know what you are doing or not. You'll be better served by realizing abortion is never going away and no law will make it go away. Why aren't you advocating education to prevent abortion? Why are you advocating getting all up into a woman's womb to dictate a government policy?

[TJones]

Whoa ! How in the world did we get this far off track ? At least insert a candidate into your positions as to whom you would like to see as Pres. What are Hillary's and Obama's stance on abortion anyways ?

[nmainguy]

Whoa ! How in the world did we get this far off track ? At least insert a candidate into your positions as to whom you would like to see as Pres. What are Hillary's and Obama's stance on abortion anyways ?

Yo Yo! We're not off track...just offering up responses to posts. I've heard Sen. Clinton talk for years about safe and rare abortion. I've heard Brownback, Romney and McCain advocate basicly the same until now.The topic is about the 2008 election. One candidate's consistant position offered up beside three flip-flopping candidate's positions is a legitimate response to this thread. I can honestly say I havn't investigated Osamas' stand but I can definatly say many people haven't looked at Romney's, McCain's or Brownback's past positions. Perhaps a little digging into all the candidate's past stands would make for a better educated electorate.

[CDeb]

Could you document anyone that has said they are pro-abortion? I can't name a soul who has ever advocated abortion.

Planned Parenthood themselves, a couple of years ago began producing "I had an abortion" shirts.

http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2004/...s/index_np.html

Yeah, I doesn't say, "I'm pro-abortion" or anything as such, but it certainly implies a matter of pride, a matter of being in favor of what one has done. Of course, I wouldn't expect anything different from PP.

Now I personally know a couple of women who have had abortions and their feelings about it are anything but proud, and personally I feel that the vast majority of women who've had one probably feel the same way.

There has always been and will always be abortion. You can have it safe, rare and legal or illegal in the alley with a coat hanger as the anti-choicers have choosen.

This logic is quite fallacious. Our society will always have lots of ills, that doesn't mean they should be legal just because a law won't totally eliminate them. And I would hardly call 4,000 a day in the United States (200 in Texas alone) "rare."

be better served by realizing abortion is never going away and no law will make it go away.

You can darn near eradicate it if you provide a support system to women who feel that an abortion is their only choice. I would not be in favor of banning it outright without that support system. While I think that many pro-life organizations do a good job of this, I think they should focus more on it. A woman in this position is very vulnerable and scared, and needs good advice, medical care, financial assistance, and possibly protection from others. My hope is that our society can give them a chance to give their child a chance.

Why aren't you advocating education to prevent abortion?

I am a huge advocate of education and alternatives to abortion. There are millions of couples (yes, millions) in the U.S. who would love to adopt a child, for starters. The demand well exceeds the supply (to put it not-so-delicately) of children in the U.S. Not to mention the others that I mentioned above.

Why are you advocating getting all up into a woman's womb to dictate a government policy?

Ah yes, that's all it's about, isn't it? Forget the fact that a living human being is killed in a quite brutal manner for the sake of another human's convenience. You can spin it any way you want to, and make it sound as oppressive as you like, but that fact doesn't go away.

Perhaps a little digging into all the candidate's past stands would make for a better educated electorate.

Such as how Sens. Gore and Leibermann used to be in favor of laws limiting abortion until they became national candidates?

[musicman]

Good points CDeb. I just never understood how many Dems were so pro choice regarding this subject but then when families were asking for a choice to send their kids to private school via a "voucher" system. the response was, you have no choice.

[nmainguy]

Planned Parenthood themselves, a couple of years ago began producing "I had an abortion" shirts.

http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2004/...s/index_np.html

Yeah, I doesn't say, "I'm pro-abortion" or anything as such, but it certainly implies a matter of pride, a matter of being in favor of what one has done. Of course, I wouldn't expect anything different from PP.

Now I personally know a couple of women who have had abortions and their feelings about it are anything but proud, and personally I feel that the vast majority of women who've had one probably feel the same way.

This logic is quite fallacious. Our society will always have lots of ills, that doesn't mean they should be legal just because a law won't totally eliminate them. And I would hardly call 4,000 a day in the United States (200 in Texas alone) "rare."

You can darn near eradicate it if you provide a support system to women who feel that an abortion is their only choice. I would not be in favor of banning it outright without that support system. While I think that many pro-life organizations do a good job of this, I think they should focus more on it. A woman in this position is very vulnerable and scared, and needs good advice, medical care, financial assistance, and possibly protection from others. My hope is that our society can give them a chance to give their child a chance.

I am a huge advocate of education and alternatives to abortion. There are millions of couples (yes, millions) in the U.S. who would love to adopt a child, for starters. The demand well exceeds the supply (to put it not-so-delicately) of children in the U.S. Not to mention the others that I mentioned above.

Ah yes, that's all it's about, isn't it? Forget the fact that a living human being is killed in a quite brutal manner for the sake of another human's convenience. You can spin it any way you want to, and make it sound as oppressive as you like, but that fact doesn't go away.

Such as how Sens. Gore and Leibermann used to be in favor of laws limiting abortion until they became national candidates?

As I said, you can't produce a source that states it is pro abortion. You tried the typical diversion tactic by aiming your bulletless gun at PP. It's not worked in the past and it doesn't work now.

The logic is not fallacious. It factual. It's hard to have a discussion with one who denies the facts so I won't persue that with you any longer.

Until you create the support system you advocate, stick to the facts and stop demonizing the majority of Americans who are PRO choice.

You and music will be be more credible when you stop muddying the waters with false information or lame diversions towards school vouchers instead of sticking to the facts.

[CDeb]

As I said, you can't produce a source that states it is pro abortion. You tried the typical diversion tactic by aiming your bulletless gun at PP.

PP aimed it at themselves. Do you mean to tell me that such a product does not indicate that one is in favor of abortion? Why would one produce or wear such an article otherwise? nmainguy, quite frankly you're stretching the bounds of human reason.

Regardless, you accuse me of diversion, yet this whole line of thought is merely a diversion created by YOU over my choice of the term "pro-abortion."

The logic is not fallacious. It factual.

You have yet to provide me with any FACTS in support of it, so until you do, it's not factual, it's your opinion, a red herring attempt to hide the truth of what an abortion really is. A scare tactic perpetuated on the American people to distract them from the reality of this "choice."

stick to the facts and stop demonizing the majority of Americans who are PRO choice.

It's not demonizing, it's calling this "choice" what it is. Again, it is a FACT that a living human being is killed in a quite brutal manner for the sake of another human's convenience. If you want to call that "demonizing," then go right ahead, but I have said nothing ill regarding pro-abortionists, only their indefensible position. If you and those of your ilk, be they the majority or not, don't like those facts, that's not my problem.

You and music will be be more credible when you stop muddying the waters with false information or lame diversions towards school vouchers instead of sticking to the facts.

And you'll be more credible when you stop accusing me of things I haven't done.

It's hard to have a discussion with one who denies the facts so I won't persue that with you any longer.

Can't say I blame you, as I am having one right now.

Edited January 24, 2007 by CDeb

[TJones]

CDeb, I can see that you have a stance that "life begins in the womb", but what if we get to heaven and God elbows you and says , "Hey Cdeb, btw............life starts as soon as you take your first breath of oxygen, not your first gulp of ambiotic fluid." What then ? Will you forgive all these, in what your opinion are, "baby killers"?

Just so you know.......... I am "pro-abortion" or a "pro-woman's right to choose to do with her body as she deems fit." After all, she'll get her judgement if she is indeed truly wrong, now won't she ?

Edited January 24, 2007 by TJones

[CDeb]

CDeb, I can see that you have a stance that "life begins in the womb", but what if we get to heaven and God elbows you and says , "Hey Cdeb, btw............life starts as soon as you take your first breath of oxygen, not your first gulp of ambiotic fluid." What then ? Will you forgive all these, in what your opinion are, "baby killers"?

Good question, and I'm glad that you want to have an intelligent discussion. While my faith no-doubt buttresses my personal position on abortion, said position is built on a foundation of logic and science, not religion. In brief, there's no doubt that children in the womb meet the scientific standard of life (we can discuss more if you wish). I come by that stance not based on my faith.

But to answer your question, I have already forgiven them. I do not stand in judgement of fellow humans faced with difficult decisions in an honest attempt to get themselves out of it. I pity them and wish that they could see that there is another way. I do not hate such people, I only wish for their act to cease.

Just so you know.......... I am "pro-abortion" or a "pro-woman's right to choose to do with her body as she deems fit."

If that "choice" doesn't include preventing another human being from making the same choice about their own body, I'm in agreement. Problem is, she's not only making that "choice" for herself.

After all, she'll get her judgement if she is indeed truly wrong, now won't she ?

If we're going to be religious, yes, we ALL get our judgement for our sins. However, that doesn't mean that we allow an evil to exist just because "they'll get their's in the end."

[TJones]

Ok, I can deal with your position in this matter. So, do you think that ALL abortions should be banned, or do you think that a 15 or 16 yr. old girl that is impregnated by her father should have to go ahead and have to live with this sin for 9 months, and the anguish and cruelty of classmates, and the worry of the possibility that the child may have some sort of birth defect from the DNA that has been crossed and possible lacking of chromosomes, only to give the baby up for adoption, should she be allowed to have an abortion? Perhaps you would like to adopt a crackhead's baby, who is blind and has withdrawls, has a malformed heart and liver and knows nothing but pain every 30 seconds and screams soooooooo loudly and intensely that you wind up having postpartum yourself, and you aren't even the one that had the child. How many of these babies, saved from the vaccuum shredder have you adopted ? And how many of your like minded friends ? One, two, ten ?

All I am saying is that there are special circumstances where you have to pick the lesser of two evils, and pray you have done the right thing , abortion is not ALWAYS a selfish act as you have implied. I don't know if you have ever been a party to an abortion, believe me though, it is NOT a selfish act on any woman's part, as far as I can tell, it is one of the hardest decisions they ever have to make. Even when they think they have definately made the right decision, and had no other choice, the guilt most of these women have is beyond comprehension and they know they have to live with that. If you indeed have the faith which I believe you do, you know that GOD doesn't let anything happen that isn't supposed to happen, that is why he gave us freewill to think for ourselves, but I know that MY God will be there for me of and when I need his guidance.

Edited January 24, 2007 by TJones

[CDeb]

Ok, I can deal with your position in this matter. So, do you think that ALL abortions should be banned, or do you think that a 15 or 16 yr. old girl that is impregnated by her father should have to go ahead and have to live with this sin for 9 months, and the anguish and cruelty of classmates, and the worry of the possibility that the child may have some sort of birth defect from the DNA that has been crossed and possible lacking of chromosomes, only to give the baby up for adoption, should she be allowed to have an abortion? Perhaps you would like to adopt a crackhead's baby, who is blind and has withdrawls, has a malformed heart and liver and knows nothing but pain every 30 seconds and screams soooooooo loudly and intensely that you wind up having postpartum yourself, and you aren't even the one that had the child. How many of these babies, saved from the vaccuum shredder have you adopted ? And how many of your like minded friends ? One, two, ten ?

Unfortunately, there are many children born into terrible circumstances. However, I find it frightening that we as human beings have set ourselves up to make value judgements as to which lives of our fellow humans are worth living. (I don't think you need me to go into the proverbial slippery slope that this presents.) When we make such judgements, we are making the worst of bad situations. Killing such children doesn't undo the horrific acts that led to their conception, all it does is end the life of a person who had no "choice" in how they were conceived. Besides, as you say, God lets everything happen for a reason. Perhaps there is a reason he allowed those children to be conceived in the first place. I know of such children. I know a pretty little girl who was a crack baby. She wasn't blind but had severe health problems, requiring much hospitalization. It was a trying time for her adoptive parents, but she is an amazing little girl now. I'm glad that someone did not decide for her that her life was not worth living.

To answer your question, I know many couples that would like to adopt children. Some would take on such challenging circumstances, even seek it out, some would not.

All I am saying is that there are special circumstances where you have to pick the lesser of two evils, and pray you have done the right thing , abortion is not ALWAYS a selfish act as you have implied. I don't know if you have ever been a party to an abortion, believe me though, it is NOT a selfish act on any woman's part, as far as I can tell, it is one of the hardest decisions they ever have to make.

This is where our disconnect is. Admittedly, I may have some ignorance here, but I cannot see where killing a child as a matter of convenience is the lesser of two evils. Yes, it is an extremely difficult act to commit. And I used the word "convenience," one of the definitions of which is something that makes ones life easier. (That does not mean it is an easy decision and I never meant to imply such) And, in essence, that is what an abortion does. The mother is making a decision about what she believes will make her life easier. Some may misguidedly THINK that they are also saving the child from a terrible life. Pity that the child never gets to make the decision for themselves.

Even when they think they have definately made the right decision, and had no other choice, the guilt most of these women have is beyond comprehension and they know they have to live with that.

Yes, I know a couple such women, and my heart aches for them.

[musicman]

As I said, you can't produce a source that states it is pro abortion. You tried the typical diversion tactic by aiming your bulletless gun at PP. It's not worked in the past and it doesn't work now.

The logic is not fallacious. It factual. It's hard to have a discussion with one who denies the facts so I won't persue that with you any longer.

Until you create the support system you advocate, stick to the facts and stop demonizing the majority of Americans who are PRO choice.

You and music will be be more credible when you stop muddying the waters with false information or lame diversions towards school vouchers instead of sticking to the facts.

I don't believe anyone was muddying the waters with false information. Your posts, to me, appear to be beyond educational but more filled with anger. IMO I believe CDeb's manner has been very professional. I ddidn't see her demoralizing "the majority of Americans who are PRO choice." As for denial of facts, I have to admit we are ALL in denial of many things in this instance.

[nmainguy]

Can't say I blame you, as I am having one right now.

...apparently with yourself.

Perhaps you could tell me what is your compulsion to tell one of my sisters what she can and cannot do with her body? Is it a Stalinistic upbringing? An uncontrolable urge to control another's life? A feeling of moralistic superiority? A need to "rescue" a woman you deem inadequate to make her own decisions in a city of over two million people and over 100 non-profit services to help her through her difficult decision?

I'm really not confused because many people on the anti-choice side are adamant that the government should have complete control over a woman's right to choose whether to have a baby by rape, incest or to save her life.

I would prefer you and the government to mind your own buisness and definatly keep out of mine. That is why I will continue to vote FOR pro-choice candidates like Guiliani, Clinton, Edwards, etc and AGAINST anti-choice blowhards who can't run their own lives much less mine.

Oh wait...I won't be able to vote for Guliani because you guys won't let him be the nominee. Too bad. He would have had a good chance at winning in 2008. Now you're stuck with Brownback who was pro-choice before he was anti-choice. What a wacky world.

[Guest Marty]

With all due respect, the last thing I would look for is a candidate's stands on "moral" issues. I have no desire to have anyone tell me who I should sleep with; who has the right to tell my sisters what to do with their wombs;

That's what makes me agitated! Since when the Federal Government buy my body? It's mine and i can do what i want with it.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Marty

[CDeb]

Perhaps you could tell me what is your compulsion to tell one of my sisters what she can and cannot do with her body? Is it a Stalinistic upbringing? An uncontrolable urge to control another's life? A feeling of moralistic superiority? A need to "rescue" a woman you deem inadequate to make her own decisions in a city of over two million people and over 100 non-profit services to help her through her difficult decision?

Nope, no demonizing there. Nope. None at all.

Straight from the playbook, though. Juke. Dodge. Dive. Re-frame. Demonize.

Like my first post said, you've practiced the rhetoric well. No wonder you went ape when I called out PP.

Edited January 25, 2007 by CDeb

[lockmat]

With all due respect, the last thing I would look for is a candidate's stands on "moral" issues. I have no desire to have anyone tell me who I should sleep with; who has the right to tell my sisters what to do with their wombs; who has the right to determine which stem cells derived from blastocyst might be used to cure my buddy's diabetes. I'll leave the medical questions to medical proffesionals; I'll leave the tax/spend/borrow issues to the elected officials and suggest they leave me and mine alone when it comes to who we sleep with and what we do with our own bodys.

nmainguy, thanks for the 'due respect.' I give you the same. I've read the whole debate between you and Cdeb. So what I say may just reitterate what he/she said. But this is why I view those issues as moral issues.

Because they deal with right and wrong. Murder, is wrong. Choosing to take someones life away from them is wrong. I understand the rape, incest argument, etc. Cdeb made a good point on them, and honestly I'm not real sure about those specific issues. They're very tough decisions.

...

The government mandates laws for people who do "wrong" or are "evil." That's what they are there for; their purpose.

I believe murder of an unborn and an 80 year old are equally murder. Both are morally wrong acts and are bad enough that they warrant punishment by law.

The main issue we have between us besides it being morally wrong, is the argument of "choice." Arguing for pro murder of an unborn child, is like arguing for murder of an infant or any other age.

It's like saying this, "Why is the government telling me what I can and can't do with my daughter? If I want to kill her, it's my choice. They have no business getting into my personal family life." You could insert any other crime or morally wrong act in there and you'd get the same idea.

And the other big thing is that not everything is relative. It's not about what I think is okay and not okay, what's good or bad. There are absolutes in this world, and they apply to moral decisions as well, including whether or not it's okay to abort a child.

nmain, I understand your argument. I just think it's off. I hope you understand the argument me and cdeb are making and that you at least think about it.

And that is why I vote based on moral stances first, because life is too important.

I would also hope that we'd all reason with our thoughts in an objective selfless way, and when thinking about these things, we'd consider what my quote says by Abraham Lincoln down below.

With all due respect, that's my argument.

[nmainguy]

With all due respect, that's my argument.

Then we'll just agree to disagree. I usualy don't discuss things like this with people like Cdeb as he seems to have the anti-choice at any cost talking points down pat.

You on the other hand have obviously put some thought into what you believe. I just happen to disagree.

Edited January 25, 2007 by nmainguy

[TJones]

Lockmat, How about the arguement of putting the "Mother" at a 100% risk of dying, if she has the baby, and that the baby probably wouldn't make it through either. Is it worth losing 2 lives to adhere to YOUR morals ? Just put yourself in this position if this was YOUR wife, then answer this question.

Keep in mind that I have 2 babies of my own and I am pro-choice.

Edited January 25, 2007 by TJones

[lockmat]

Lockmat, How about the arguement of putting the "Mother" at a 100% risk of dying, if she has the baby, and that the baby probably wouldn't make it through either. Is it worth losing 2 lives to adhere to YOUR morals ? Just put yourself in this position if this was YOUR wife, then answer this question.

Keep in mind that I have 2 babies of my own and I am pro-choice.

TJ, I did mention that those type of decisions are very tough to make and I'm willing to say that it's somewhat of a gray area for me in my thinking. I don't know yet.

And they are not MY morals. Like I said, contrary to general belief, life and things in it are not relative. This argument goes much much deeper than abortion or any other issues that might come up in any election.

Edited January 26, 2007 by lockmat

[ricco67]

Let me get this straight, CDeb. If all life is precious and murder is wrong.

Does that mean that you are against The Death Penalty?

For the record: I'm Pro-choice.

And yes, I asked people to be civil, nice to know you took it too heart.

Edited January 26, 2007 by ricco67

[nmainguy]

Let me get this straight, CDeb. If all life is precious and murder is wrong.

Does that mean that you are against The Death Penalty?

For the record: I'm Pro-choice.

And yes, I asked people to be civil, nice to know you took it too heart.

It has been my personal experience that most people who are anti-choice are pro death penalty. I can never figure out how thet can justify it.

Must be something in the koolaid.

[west20th]

It is a big issue for everyone.

Maybe another thread? While it is on topic for a thread about the 2008 presidential race it tends to suck all of the attention to itself since it is a controversial topic and a big issue. However, it is not the only issue and tends to turn this thread into a debate on abortion instead of what it actually is.

[lockmat]

It has been my personal experience that most people who are anti-choice are pro death penalty. I can never figure out how thet can justify it.

Must be something in the koolaid.

Life is precious, but you're almost comparing apples to oranges. In one case a human life who has no choice and has not commited one single act in life is being killed, while someone who unjustly took someone elses life out of hate and the evilness of their heart is receiving justice for their actions. Two completely different cases. And while life is important, every crime and wrong-doing has a different degree of penalty.

And what I can't figure out is how people who are pro-abortion are anti-death penalty. Abortions take away lives of innocent babies, yet the same people want to save the life of an evil murderer?

Must be drinkin the same kool-aid, haha

Edited January 26, 2007 by lockmat

[DJ V Lawrence]

Life is precious, but you're almost comparing apples to oranges. In one case a human life who has no choice and has not commited one single act in life is being killed, while someone who unjustly took someone elses life out of hate and the evilness of their heart is receiving justice for their actions.

Are U saying that apples have no choice to live and oranges are evil? The nerve

[TJones]

I guess you don't recall making this comment ?

"And they are not MY morals. Like I said, contrary to general belief, life and things in it are not relative. This argument goes much much deeper than abortion or any other issues that might come up in any election."

The main issue we have between us besides it being morally wrong, is the argument of "choice." Arguing for pro murder of an unborn child, is like arguing for murder of an infant or any other age......

It's like saying this, "Why is the government telling me what I can and can't do with my daughter? If I want to kill her, it's my choice. They have no business getting into my personal family life." You could insert any other crime or morally wrong act in there and you'd get the same idea......

And that is why I vote based on moral stances first, because life is too important.

I don't know, I guess I must be misreading that word you kept putting in your post ?

So, whose morals are they then, if they aren't yours ?

The abortion issue boils down to this for me, it is whether or not you believe that life begins in the womb, or at what stage in the womb. I believe that is why doctors determine that after a certain point in a pregnancy, you are unable to have an abortion, or that the doctor will not perform one on the patient.

You are wrong about the death penalty issue, at least in my case. I say hang'em high, and put it on pay per view or perhaps have a primetime special, and I guarantee a drop in the crime rate.

.....and Trae, do you want Obama, simply because he is Black, or do you like his stance on issues ?

Edited January 26, 2007 by TJones

[lockmat]

You are wrong about the death penalty issue, at least in my case. I say hang'em high, and put it on pay per view or perhaps have a primetime special, and I guarantee a drop in the crime rate.

Sorry, I made a hasty generalization. But it seems from my experiences that for the most part, that's the case. There are always exceptions.

[TJones]

Sorry, I made a hasty generalization. But it seems from my experiences that for the most part, that's the case. There are always exceptions.

No, I agree that generalizing it IS usually how it plays out, it is strange, how left wing pro-choicers, would love to abolish the death penalty, and vice versa for the right wing religious. I don't understand it myself how you can defend people that have made a choice to commit henious crimes against humanity and a thinning of the herd is sometimes neccessary in cases like that, but these like minded individuals don't seem to think twice about terminating a "possible life", like I said, it depends on where you think life begins, that really had no choice in the matter of being concieved or not.