Transit and Pedestrian Access

[Double L]

I'd say a lot of businesses in Houston allready are relying completely on foot traffic in several of our neighborhoods. Whether those people live in the direct area or were visiting the area or not. For those businesses, they just want the best transportation system possible and the demand of people who want to be in those neighborhoods sustains those businesses.

Try living in the center of a dense Northeastern city and doing your shopping at a downtown Macy's. It's fine for going in, trying things on and carrying a few items home, but if you buy anything more than what you can easily carry, you get to face the following after making your transaction at Macy's:

1. Walk to the subway. Which may be a block or two away, or not, depending on how close Macy's is to the station.

2. Wait for the subway. Which may come frequently, or not, depending on the time of day.

3. Ride the subway. Which may be packed, or not, depending on the time of day.

4. Walk back to your apartment, condo or townhome. Which may be a block or two away, or not, depending on how much you were willing to spend to live near the station.

5. Get your car. Assuming it was worth having one, given the traffic, and whether you have the option and can afford to buy parking or there is street parking near where you live. Otherwise, you can wait for a friend or relative to give you a ride.

6. Negotiate the congestion back to Macy's. Which may be awful, or not, depending on the time of day.

7. Figure out where to park near Macy's. Which may be a block or two away, or not.

8. Haul your stuff from Macy's to your car.

9. Negotiate the congestion back to your apartment, condo or townhome.

10. Find parking.

11. Haul your stuff from your car to your apartment, condo or townhome.

Add beating sun, snow or rain to taste.

Making a run to Ikea is even more fun. It's usually an all-day affair, driving far, far, far out of town, which is the only place where Ikea could affordably locate. Fighting your way out, fighting your way back in, finding a loading dock to park to bring stuff up, getting into an argument with the building manager because you're using the loading dock when someone else has signed up for it exclusively to move that day, etc., etc., etc.

I'd just as soon go to the Macy's at Memorial City on the day after Thanksgiving to similate something similar in convenience and efficiency.

Maybe for you but for a lot of people who live in New York that is their preference. I'm sure there's a Macy's in suburban New York they coulda gone to.

[JSB]

Yes. Otherwise the rents and mortgages wouldn't be so high.

Your other points were valid, though.

Good point. I shouldn't be so categorical that nobody wants to live there. Some people do, and they're willing to pay the price.

[Double L]

For businesses, it doesn't matter if an area is pedestrian oriented or not. The businesses want to go where the people are and a lot of the people will want to be in a pedestrian oriented area.

[TheNiche]

I'd say a lot of businesses in Houston allready are relying completely on foot traffic in several of our neighborhoods. Whether those people live in the direct area or were visiting the area or not. For those businesses, they just want the best transportation system possible and the demand of people who want to be in those neighborhoods sustains those businesses.

Funny...I could've sworn that I've seen cars in storefront parking lots in Montrose. Perhaps I was mistaken.

Would you mind citing examples?

Maybe for you but for a lot of people who live in New York that is their preference. I'm sure there's a Macy's in suburban New York they coulda gone to.

Bull. It is nobody's preference to endure that hell. It is something that is tolerated because they find higher satisfaction in some other regard.

[JSB]

I'd say a lot of businesses in Houston allready are relying completely on foot traffic in several of our neighborhoods. Whether those people live in the direct area or were visiting the area or not. For those businesses, they just want the best transportation system possible and the demand of people who want to be in those neighborhoods sustains those businesses.

Maybe for you but for a lot of people who live in New York that is their preference. I'm sure there's a Macy's in suburban New York they coulda gone to.

But lots of people don't like it, so they move to other cities, such as Houston. The problem is spending billions of dollars to make inner-Loop Houston more like that, which affects not only the people who want to live there that way, but the people who right now can get there in their cars and don't live within walking distance or rail access.

As for what the businesses prefer, presumably there is an economic point (which is not necessarily easily discernible) between whether a pedestrian-oriented business or a car-oriented business is more lucrative. You seem to be overlooking the cost of business that is lost on drivers who will go elsewhere to avoid the congestion when speculating on the benefit of business from pedestrians who like to walk to their local coffee shop, restaurant, pub or boutique.

I agree that it works in some areas. I don't think it's desirable all over the inner Loop.

[Highway6]

It makes little sense in a city (1) where the temperature is above comfortable levels for walking much of the year,

I don't buy the argument that temperatures are a major factor in stopping Houstonians from walking.

It is not unbearable nor even uncomfortable the majority of the year. It unbearable 2 months a year. And guess what, its like that everywhere. NYC and Chicago have unbearable snow and cold for just as long each year.

I just got back from a short vacation in London where they were having record winds on top of their cold weather.. and it didnt stop me or millions others there from walking several miles each day.

The most established place in the city for living like this, downtown, is connected by a series of tunnels, because most people find it too uncomfortable much of the year to walk outside even if just to get lunch or a cup of coffee while working. That makes a pretty strong statement about the mass appeal about living that way all the time.

As for downtown business pedestrians, they walk down below becasue that is where the retail and restaurants are now... not because its hell on earth up above.

None of the new buildings that have gone up the past few years have added any significant streetlevel retail or restuarants.

Hopefully the Pavillions will change that. If the skyscraper/buisness part of downtown had more streetlevel retail and restaurants to attract pedestrians.. does anyone think our hellish temperatures would prevent them from becoming just as vibrant and used as the tunnel system ?

[musicman]

Since most people won't use the transit system except to go into and out of dense areas, does that mean that the Houston P&R system is a failure, along with the P&R options for the rodeo and other major events?

For weekday purposes, downtown is considered high density hence P&R is active and successful. For any other major event at ANY location,, buses are more adaptable to varying conditions. Many cities strive to model many aspects our P&R system as a result of its success. The resources used to develop a useful P&R system are far less than rail system as well for far more benefit.

I didn't say most people won't use the transit system except to go into and out of dense areas. You did. I said "most will still travel by cars when entering/leaving the area."

Your argument that Houston will always be a car city is tiring. If what you say is true, houston shall be a city with a perpetual rush hour as the population increases and more business start moving into downtown.

Not providing data to support your argument is tiring. Name one US that is becoming so dense that rail is necessary as it is in NYC? If what you say is true, you should be able to provide a list.

[JSB]

I don't buy the argument that temperatures are a major factor in stopping Houstonians from walking.

It is not unbearable nor even uncomfortable the majority of the year. It unbearable 2 months a year. And guess what, its like that everywhere. NYC and Chicago have unbearable snow and cold for just as long each year.

I just got back from a short vacation in London where they were having record winds on top of their cold weather.. and it didnt stop me or millions others there from walking several miles each day.

As for downtown business pedestrians, they walk down below becasue that is where the retail and restaurants are now... not because its hell on earth up above.

None of the new buildings that have gone up the past few years have added any significant streetlevel retail or restuarants.

Hopefully the Pavillions will change that. If the skyscraper/buisness part of downtown had more streetlevel retail and restaurants to attract pedestrians.. does anyone think our hellish temperatures would prevent them from becoming just as vibrant and used as the tunnel system ?

In New York, Chicago, London, Boston, D.C., etc., they do it because they have to, not necessarily because they want to. Yes, it's something they're willing to deal with, especially since driving and parking in those cities is miserable at times. That doesn't mean converting Houston into that is desirable.

And part of your question is answered by the fact that Houston chose to build the tunnels in the first place, just as Minneapolis chose to build the skyways.

[Double L]

I am amazed that there are people on this forum who believe that nobody wants to live in a pedestrian oriented environment. Flabergasted. Did you hear that? Flabergasted! Why is there a national trend of new urbanism development in formerly auto-oriented neighborhoods when they didn't need to choose such development economically or transportation-wise? Do some research, there are many books about the benefits of the quality of life of living in a pedestrian oriented neighborhood and many people want to. That's why they move to Houston and move to downtown instead of Memorial. Those two neighborhoods have the same traffic efficiency, same cost and different environment.

I'd say the entire inner loop is pedestrian oriented but I'd say Downtown, Midtown, Medical Center, Montrose and Greenway Plaza have foot traffic businesses.

[musicman]

I'd say a lot of businesses in Houston allready are relying completely on foot traffic in several of our neighborhoods.

Which businesses rely completely on foot traffic in our neighborhoods?

[JSB]

Since most people won't use the transit system except to go into and out of dense areas, does that mean that the Houston P&R system is a failure, along with the P&R options for the rodeo and other major events?

Houston will be more dense and it will occur long after we're probably dead, but it will happen. Your argument that Houston will always be a car city is tiring. If what you say is true, houston shall be a city with a perpetual rush hour as the population increases and more business start moving into downtown.

If congestion into downtown becomes so bad, then why would businesses move there rather than into the edge cities? I think the trend is that Houston will become more populated more quickly than it becomes more dense. While density in some areas will increase, more and more people will locate in the suburbs. The city is built on a flat coastal plain, which means that building out will virtually always be cheaper than building more densely in the more central areas. People may choose to live closer to where they work, but that won't necessarily be downtown or even near downtown.

[TheNiche]

I don't buy the argument that temperatures are a major factor in stopping Houstonians from walking.

It is not unbearable nor even uncomfortable the majority of the year. It unbearable 2 months a year. And guess what, its like that everywhere. NYC and Chicago have unbearable snow and cold for just as long each year.

I just got back from a short vacation in London where they were having record winds on top of their cold weather.. and it didnt stop me or millions others there from walking several miles each day.

As for downtown business pedestrians, they walk down below becasue that is where the retail and restaurants are now... not because its hell on earth up above.

None of the new buildings that have gone up the past few years have added any significant streetlevel retail or restuarants.

Hopefully the Pavillions will change that. If the skyscraper/buisness part of downtown had more streetlevel retail and restaurants to attract pedestrians.. does anyone think our hellish temperatures would prevent them from becoming just as vibrant and used as the tunnel system ?

After the holiday retail sales reports are released, there are basically two factors that economic analysts look at as explanatory factors: jobs/income and weather. Weather does impact shopping. There is an enormous amount of empirical research to back that up.

I've been foregoing grocery shopping lately for that precise reason. Been living off of non-perishable canned products.

[Double L]

When people are paying $2 million dollars to live in the Commerce Towers in Houston they are not paying that much because traffic congestion forced them to, it's because they wanted to.

http://www.commercetowers.com/index.cfm/Me...Group/Views.htm

...and don't say it's because of "the views" or "the hipness" a serious reason is a pedestrian oriented environment.

[lockmat]

I am amazed that there are people on this forum who believe that nobody wants to live in a pedestrian oriented environment. Flabergasted. Did you hear that? Flabergasted! Why is there a national trend of new urbanism development in formerly auto-oriented neighborhoods that didn't need to choose such development economically or transportation-wise? Do some research, there are many books about the benefits of the quality of life of living in a pedestrian oriented neighborhood and many people want to. That's why they move to Houston and move to downtown instead of Memorial. Those two neighborhoods have the same traffic efficiency, same cost and different environment.

I'd say the entire inner loop is pedestrian oriented but I'd say Downtown, Midtown, Medical Center, Montrose and Greenway Plaza have foot traffic businesses.

Me gusta.

Most people are ignorant to the idea of pedestrian friendly environments. If they knew the benefits, I believe more would consider it.

[JSB]

I am amazed that there are people on this forum who believe that nobody wants to live in a pedestrian oriented environment. Flabergasted. Did you hear that? Flabergasted! Why is there a national trend of new urbanism development in formerly auto-oriented neighborhoods that didn't need to choose such development economically or transportation-wise? Do some research, there are many books about the benefits of the quality of life of living in a pedestrian oriented neighborhood and many people want to. That's why they move to Houston and move to downtown instead of Memorial. Those two neighborhoods have the same traffic efficiency, same cost and different environment.

I'd say the entire inner loop is pedestrian oriented but I'd say Downtown, Midtown, Medical Center, Montrose and Greenway Plaza have foot traffic businesses.

Who says that nobody wants to live in pedestrian-oriented environments? But the claim that lots and lots of people want to live in pedestrian-oriented environments and that the entire inner Loop is pedestrian-oriented does not strike me as accurate.

If anything, much of the inner Loop, with the exceptions of downtown and parts of Midtown, are more akin to the medium-density parts of Northwest Washington -- where the subway stops are not all that close and cars are pretty much a necessity -- than to the thick urban density of Manhattan, downtown Washington or Boston or central London.

Even with extensive investment in rail, people living in pedestrian-oriented enviromments would still find it necessary to use their cars from time to time. And if these people are so gung ho about it, why are they avoiding the fairly extensive bus system already in place?

[TheNiche]

I am amazed that there are people on this forum who believe that nobody wants to live in a pedestrian oriented environment. Flabergasted. Did you hear that? Flabergasted! Why is there a national trend of new urbanism development in formerly auto-oriented neighborhoods that didn't need to choose such development economically or transportation-wise? Do some research, there are many books about the benefits of the quality of life of living in a pedestrian oriented neighborhood and many people want to. That's why they move to Houston and move to downtown instead of Memorial. Those two neighborhoods have the same traffic efficiency, same cost and different environment.

Do some demographic research. Per the December 2006 issue of DATABook Houston, published by the UH Institute for Regional Forecasting, between 2005 and 2010, about 5,911 people per year will be added to the Inner Loop, while 136,393 people per year will be added to the Houston MSA. That means that for every one person that moves inside the loop, 22 people will move elsewhere within the region.

It isn't that nobody wants to live in urban areas. It's just that they're relatively few in number.

[JSB]

Me gusta.

Most people are ignorant to the idea of pedestrian friendly environments. If they knew the benefits, I believe more would consider it.

How would you expose them to it? Would you expose them to the inconveniences as well? How about in a place like Houston, where the infrastructure is already largely built at driving scale, as opposed to walking scale?

[Highway6]

In New York, Chicago, London, Boston, D.C., etc., they do it because they have to, not necessarily because they want to. Yes, it's something they're willing to deal with, especially since driving and parking in those cities is miserable at times. That doesn't mean converting Houston into that is desirable.

And part of your question is answered by the fact that Houston chose to build the tunnels in the first place, just as Minneapolis chose to build the skyways.

Yes.. Houston also once built the Astrodome to deal with the unbearable heat and mosquitos.... Why, we had this new thing called air conditioning, so might as well use it to the fullest. Now, we have two stadiums with retractable roofs. Why? because as unbearable as Houston weather might be for 2 months in the summer and 2 months in the winter... the remaining 8 months of the year can be downright beautiful.

I'm not at all suggesting we turn the inner loop into NYC. I do see the need to maintain parking and maintain vehicular access to walkable areas. I just think its absurd to think our weather is a legitimate threat to walkable enclaves in this city.

Even in those cities though.. do they really have to.. you always have the option of taking a cab. OR they can choose to move from those cities. Yes, there is lack of parking, but I would say that the desire to walk and be outdoors could just as much be considered a Pro to living there and not a Con.

[JSB]

Do some demographic research. Per the December 2006 issue of DATABook Houston, published by the UH Institute for Regional Forecasting, between 2005 and 2010, about 5,911 people per year will be added to the Inner Loop, while 136,393 people per year will be added to the Houston MSA. That means that for every one person that moves inside the loop, 22 people will move elsewhere within the region.

It isn't that nobody wants to live in urban areas. It's just that they're relatively few in number.

And how do those numbers work out per capita for the cost of rail that is supposedly necessary to draw people to and accommodate people in pedestrian-oriented environments?

[Double L]

Rail is more efficient than bus and that is statistically true if you look at ridership numbers. For it to be possible to live in a pedestrian oriented neighborhood at all you need good public tranportation. That is why it is so important.

...and if the people want to live in a pedestrian oriented area the businesses will follow them.

[TheNiche]

Rail is more efficient than bus and that is statistically true if you look at ridership numbers. For it to be possible to live in a pedestrian oriented neighborhood at all you need good public tranportation. That is why it is so important.

...and if the people want to live in a pedestrian oriented area the businesses will follow them.

Efficiency can be derived in many different ways. If you are going to cite 'statistical truth', please be more specific or cite sources.

[Double L]

If only one person wants to live in a pedestrian oriented area you need to build it for them. You can't tell them what to do. This is America.

(they'll even pay $2 million for it)

[TheNiche]

If only one person wants to live in a pedestrian oriented area you need to build it for them. You can't tell them what to do. This is America.

(they'll even pay $2 million for it)

If that person is willing to pay for it, then I've got no problem with that reasoning. Otherwise, this is America and you can't tell me what to do with my hard-earned money.

[JSB]

Yes.. Houston also once built the Astrodome to deal with the unbearable heat and mosquitos.... Why, we had this new thing called air conditioning, so might as well use it to the fullest. Now, we have two stadiums with retractable roofs. Why? because as unbearable as Houston weather might be for 2 months in the summer and 2 months in the winter... the remaining 8 months of the year can be downright beautiful.

I'm not at all suggesting we turn the inner loop into NYC. I do see the need to maintain parking and maintain vehicular access to walkable areas. I just think its absurd to think our weather is a legitimate threat to walkable enclaves in this city.

Even in those cities though.. do they really have to.. you always have the option of taking a cab. OR they can choose to move from those cities. Yes, there is lack of parking, but I would say that the desire to walk and be outdoors could just as much be considered a Pro to living there and not a Con.

I don't think it's absurd at all. Wasn't the introduction of air conditioning a factor in facilitating the growth of many of the cities in the South, and perhaps most of all Houston? I'm not saying nobody is going to walk outside when it's hot, but given the choice between walking and driving during much of the summer, I believe the weather would be a significant deciding factor for a number of people.

[lockmat]

Who says that nobody wants to live in pedestrian-oriented environments? But the claim that lots and lots of people want to live in pedestrian-oriented environments and that the entire inner Loop is pedestrian-oriented does not strike me as accurate.

If anything, much of the inner Loop, with the exceptions of downtown and parts of Midtown, are more akin to the medium-density parts of Northwest Washington -- where the subway stops are not all that close and cars are pretty much a necessity -- than to the thick urban density of Manhattan, downtown Washington or Boston or central London.

Even with extensive investment in rail, people living in pedestrian-oriented enviromments would still find it necessary to use their cars from time to time. And if these people are so gung ho about it, why are they avoiding the fairly extensive bus system already in place?

I agree.

I'd like to quote the famous planner Andres Duany, ""I'm a ruthless realist,' he said in response. 'I don't want to force people not to drive. I want to invite them to walk."

Most of America will most likely always need their car for some thing and time to time. But the pedestrian oriented community invites people to walk more often.

[Double L]

About the bus vs. rail ridership statistics. Just a quick google search got me this.

http://www.heritagetrolley.org/articleTennyson.htm

Scroll down to the table.

[JSB]

Rail is more efficient than bus and that is statistically true if you look at ridership numbers. For it to be possible to live in a pedestrian oriented neighborhood at all you need good public tranportation. That is why it is so important.

...and if the people want to live in a pedestrian oriented area the businesses will follow them.

More efficient in what way? What's the difference in cost per mile, both capital and operating cost? Bus routes can be added, subtracted, modified, stops put in different places. Rail routes are fixed. Why wouldn't an extensive bus system, with lots of stops and regular service, not have the same effect as rail if so many people really enjoyed a pedestrian-oriented lifestyle?

[Double L]

If not a lot of people want to have pedestrian oriented neighborhoods then not a lot of businesses will move there and not a lot of people will move there. But they do and they move to these neighborhoods along with businesses and they voted to approve a metro rail plan. We have enough demand in Houston for these things to be happening.

As a transit system it is not inherently damaging to business. It attracts people and that attracts business.

[JSB]

I agree.

I'd like to quote the famous planner Andres Duany, ""I'm a ruthless realist,' he said in response. 'I don't want to force people not to drive. I want to invite them to walk."

Most of America will most likely always need their car for some thing and time to time. But the pedestrian oriented community invites people to walk more often.

But it sounds like the only way to form pedestrian-oriented communities is to spend billions of dollars on rail. Why can't people form their pedestrian-oriented communities around where they live to walk in, and then get in their cars and drive when necessary? Why is it necessary to spend billions of dollars to provide them with something they could have without that kind of investment?

[lockmat]

How would you expose them to it? Would you expose them to the inconveniences as well? How about in a place like Houston, where the infrastructure is already largely built at driving scale, as opposed to walking scale?

Personally, I would tell them the inconveniences. But people should be able to think for themselves as well.