Transit and Pedestrian Access

[TheNiche]

Do retailers in Houston (generally, not just Costco over at the HISD site) see any value (positive or negative) in pedestrian and transit access? In Houston is it ONLY about personal automobile access? Why or why not?

[This question carried over from the Costco/HISD thread to avoid a hijacking.]

[CDeb]

Do retailers in Houston (generally, not just Costco over at the HISD site) see any value (positive or negative) in pedestrian and transit access? In Houston is it ONLY about personal automobile access? Why or why not?

[This question carried over from the Costco/HISD thread to avoid a hijacking.]

IMHO, it depends on the type of business it is. I don't think you're average large grocery store or big box retailer is going to see any value in it because I would guess that many of their customers are going to find carrying their purchases home on mass transit inconvenient. But a business where people typically wouldn't carry much in or out might see some value in it.

[lockmat]

Do retailers in Houston (generally, not just Costco over at the HISD site) see any value (positive or negative) in pedestrian and transit access? In Houston is it ONLY about personal automobile access? Why or why not?

[This question carried over from the Costco/HISD thread to avoid a hijacking.]

Not a retailer, so I don't know. But to me, it would seem they wouldn't care until those means of transportations became more prevelant.

[TheNiche]

Not a retailer, so I don't know. But to me, it would seem they wouldn't care until those means of transportations became more prevelant.

Each dot on the map below represents 25 households that do not own a vehicle, per Claritas' 2006 estimates. Note the general concentration of car-less households in poor neighborhoods. The one really profound exception is Montrose and to a somewhat lesser extent, the Heights.

Each dot on the second map represents 25 employees that walk to work, per Claritas' 2006 estimates. Note how much more Montrose and the Museum District stands out here than in the first map. This is an indication to me that (for whatever reason) more affluent people will be willing to walk before they become willing to take the bus.

[lockmat]

Each dot on the map below represents 25 households that do not own a vehicle, per Claritas' 2006 estimates. Note the general concentration of car-less households in poor neighborhoods. The one really profound exception is Montrose and to a somewhat lesser extent, the Heights.

So maybe your question should/is directed towards those neigborhoods? I wonder if the retailers in those areas with more of those dots cater or care more about them?

How is value normally shown towards those who get around by foot or bus, anyway?

[ricco67]

IMHO, it depends on the type of business it is. I don't think you're average large grocery store or big box retailer is going to see any value in it because I would guess that many of their customers are going to find carrying their purchases home on mass transit inconvenient. But a business where people typically wouldn't carry much in or out might see some value in it.

Not a retailer, so I don't know. But to me, it would seem they wouldn't care until those means of transportations became more prevelant.

Each dot on the map below represents 25 households that do not own a vehicle, per Claritas' 2006 estimates. Note the general concentration of car-less households in poor neighborhoods. The one really profound exception is Montrose and to a somewhat lesser extent, the Heights.

I have to agree with everyone on here, these are all very valid points, especially with light grocery shopping. As I've said previously, people don't buy bulk when they live in a more dense living conditions, they just don't have the room for it.

The map I'd have to question as far as the montrose and heights areas. The dots maybe of the same diameter, but they cover more residences in some of the areas. Otherwise, I'd think it's relatively accurate overall.

[TheNiche]

How is value normally shown towards those who get around by foot or bus, anyway?

There usually isn't value assigned to those people except in very specific cases. For instance, projects that are Downtown or the in the TMC where parking is highly scarce. And even those projects typically only look to substantiate the excess capacity and cost of the closest few parking garages or lots.

I've come across some exceptions, but they are few and far in between.

The map I'd have to question as far as the montrose and heights areas. The dots maybe of the same diameter, but they cover more residences in some of the areas. Otherwise, I'd think it's relatively accurate overall.

It is a dot density map. Each dot represents a discrete number of households or employees, not a percentage of them.

[ricco67]

There usually isn't value assigned to those people except in very specific cases. For instance, projects that are Downtown or the in the TMC where parking is highly scarce. And even those projects typically only look to substantiate the excess capacity and cost of the closest few parking garages or lots.

I've come across some exceptions, but they are few and far in between.

It is a dot density map. Each dot represents a discrete number of households or employees, not a percentage of them.

I realize it's not a density map, but I'm just saying that a dot in one section covers more households in another section. that's all I'm saying.

[lockmat]

There usually isn't value assigned to those people except in very specific cases. For instance, projects that are Downtown or the in the TMC where parking is highly scarce. And even those projects typically only look to substantiate the excess capacity and cost of the closest few parking garages or lots.

I've come across some exceptions, but they are few and far in between.

Sorry, I guess what I meant is this. What examples are there that we can look at to see how retailers value those people? Like in New York or anywhere else that those people are prevelant; how do retailers assign value to them?

Then maybe we can see if Houston retailers value those customers.

Or are we just talking about an idea of value that's in a retail owners mind?

[musicman]

I realize it's not a density map, but I'm just saying that a dot in one section covers more households in another section. that's all I'm saying.

Per Niche " Each dot represents a discrete number of households or employees"

[musicman]

IMHO, it depends on the type of business it is. I don't think you're average large grocery store or big box retailer is going to see any value in it because I would guess that many of their customers are going to find carrying their purchases home on mass transit inconvenient. But a business where people typically wouldn't carry much in or out might see some value in it.

This is common sense at its finest!!

I think most poeple would agree with you CDeb. I will add that as a driver, the Richmond area is crowded during rush hours now. A light rail being placed in the area will only make the situation worse, mainly because more traffic will be routed through fewer routes (cross overs at esplanades will most likely be closed as well as some crossovers at minor streets). This will force more traffic at fewer places for access. For the current line, since less people actually live along it, there is less interference than will be seen on Richmond. There was a story on the local news today concerning a business that says the rail is running their customers away. So limited access is definitely a factor in the survival of retail.

[ricco67]

are you going to start this argument AGAIN?

[JSB]

Sorry, I guess what I meant is this. What examples are there that we can look at to see how retailers value those people? Like in New York or anywhere else that those people are prevelant; how do retailers assign value to them?

Then maybe we can see if Houston retailers value those customers.

Or are we just talking about an idea of value that's in a retail owners mind?

As noted above, it seems that retailers would value these customers depending on how many of them are and how much they spend. I cannot imagine retailers would not welcome and try to accommodate customers who represented a decent size of their market.

That said, doing grocery shopping as a pedestrian or by public transportation is generally inconvenient, at least in my experience, so I'm not sure how big those numbers are or would be.

[TheNiche]

Sorry, I guess what I meant is this. What examples are there that we can look at to see how retailers value those people? Like in New York or anywhere else that those people are prevelant; how do retailers assign value to them?

Then maybe we can see if Houston retailers value those customers.

Or are we just talking about an idea of value that's in a retail owners mind?

NYC is a world apart. ...but they would assign greater value to foot traffic than to vehicular traffic for convenience-oriented retail. Destination retail is a different matter, but is very site-specific.

[lockmat]

NYC is a world apart. ...but they would assign greater value to foot traffic than to vehicular traffic for convenience-oriented retail. Destination retail is a different matter, but is very site-specific.

I don't think I understood the initial question. My bad.

[Double L]

Retailers want whatever will bring more people to their business.

I think our priority should be whether or not we're providing the best transportation services to the people and let the market forces work themselves out. There are a lot of people out there who would rather live in a pedestrian oriented environment. Those people will choose to move to the inner loop. As people move to the inner loop the higher population will sustain more businesses. As more people live in the inner loop you need pedestrian oriented transportation services because that is the best way to provide transportation service to a high density area. and then you've helped inner loop retailers because pedestrian oriented transportation is more efficient to move people around in those neighborhoods. What matters is that we provided the services to the people so that they can make their decision as to where they want to live and then the business will follow those customers. The better the transportation in the inner loop the more people will live there and the more people will live there the better for the businesses.

The people will decide if they want to move to a pedestrian oriented area or not and then the business will follow them.

[JSB]

Retailers want whatever will bring more people to their business.

I think our priority should be whether or not we're providing the best transportation services to the people and let the market forces work themselves out. There are a lot of people out there who would rather live in a pedestrian oriented environment. Those people will choose to move to the inner loop. As people move to the inner loop the higher population will sustain more businesses. As more people live in the inner loop you need pedestrian oriented transportation services because that is the best way to provide transportation service to a high density area. and then you've helped inner loop retailers because pedestrian oriented transportation is more efficient to move people around in those neighborhoods. What matters is that we provided the services to the people so that they can make their decision as to where they want to live and then the business will follow those customers. The better the transportation in the inner loop the more people will live there and the more people will live there the better for the businesses.

The people will decide if they want to move to a pedestrian oriented area or not and then the business will follow them.

What about the hundreds of thousands of Houstonians who don't live inside the Loop but who eat and shop there regularly? The density that would tend to build up along rail routes would presumably make it difficult and expensive to park. Would inner-Loop businesses want to forego outer-Loop customers who drive for the chance to attract inner-Loop customers who do not? Moreover, is it realistic to expect that large swathes inside the Loop can be interconnected with rail densely enough to make commuting and shopping by rail workable? Even along Richmond inside the Loop most businesses are far enough apart that a lot of walking would be involved.

And this is without considering whether the cost of rail is worth trying to create a kind of culture that does not significantly exist in Houston. It seems that that's a large part of what matters. Imposing rail on the city does not strike me as a market-oriented approach.

[ricco67]

I think that once the rail corridors and developers start building, it'll be a form of Darwinism will occur and only after a period of time will it be decided what truly stands a chance to thrive.

[Double L]

The businesses want us to have the most efficient transportation system possible.

A lot of people in Houston want to live in pedestrian oriented neigborhoods. That is why our pedestrian oriented neighborhoods are growing. That's happening in the inner loop and maybe a few new urbanism developments outside of it. As we build these pedestrian oriented neighborhoods due to this demand it will become more dense and therefore more difficult to drive and therefore more efficient to use public transportation.

[musicman]

What about the hundreds of thousands of Houstonians who don't live inside the Loop but who eat and shop there regularly? The density that would tend to build up along rail routes would presumably make it difficult and expensive to park. Would inner-Loop businesses want to forego outer-Loop customers who drive for the chance to attract inner-Loop customers who do not?

Bingo, access will always be important for drivers as most customers do not ride public transportation to their destination.

[Double L]

...but in cities of high density they do...and as Houston becomes high density they will.

[Double L]

Has anybody here ever owned a business in a pedestrian oriented area?

There are some businesses like coffee shops which only serve their direct neighborhood. For these businesses, business in pedestrian oriented areas and auto oriented areas is probably the same. There are also businesses like IKEA which require region-wide business. These businesses tend to not open in pedestrian oriented areas. Just like Sakowitz left downtown and amazingly Macy's stayed, they are both region-wide serving retailers. It takes a large amount of people in the area for them to open a store. Just like in San Francisco's Union Square, big league region-wide retailers like Macy's and Dillard's and Nordstrom's have opened there because there are so many tourists. However, mostly these regionwide serving retailers tend not to open in pedestrian oriented areas.

[JSB]

The businesses want us to have the most efficient transportation system possible.

A lot of people in Houston want to live in pedestrian oriented neigborhoods. That is why our pedestrian oriented neighborhoods are growing. That's happening in the inner loop and maybe a few new urbanism developments outside of it. As we build these pedestrian oriented neighborhoods due to this demand it will become more dense and therefore more difficult to drive and therefore more efficient to use public transportation.

But do lots of Houstonians really want to live in pedestrian-oriented neighborhoods where (1) rents and mortgages are higher due to dense clusters around rail stops, (2) parking is scarce and expensive and (3) congestion is much greater? Under this scenario, public transportation only becomes more efficient by making driving less efficient. In other words, you're not necessarily making things more efficient overall, you're just making the current mode of transportation less attractive, thereby making the alternative more attractive.

It makes little sense in a city (1) where the temperature is above comfortable levels for walking much of the year, (2) where most residences, workplaces and retail establishments are already significantly built up at driving rather than walking scale, (3) where land is relatively affordable and (4) where the road system is extensive to try to recreate the kind of high prices, congestion, parking scarcity and general inconvenience of city centers on the East Coast.

Have you ever walked to work in heavy rain or snow? Hauled bags of groceries several blocks? Crowded onto a train to get to work? Tried to figure out how to get there when the train is out of service? Spent more on a one-bedroom condo than a single-family home costs in the suburbs? The most established place in the city for living like this, downtown, is connected by a series of tunnels, because most people find it too uncomfortable much of the year to walk outside even if just to get lunch or a cup of coffee while working. That makes a pretty strong statement about the mass appeal about living that way all the time.

And all of this without considering the billions of dollars that rail costs.

[musicman]

...but in cities of high density they do...and as Houston becomes high density they will.

Houston will never be dense like NYC which is high density eveywhere and warrants a vast network of rail.. We may become more dense in some localized areas yes, but most will still travel by cars when entering/leaving the area.

[Double L]

Statistically pedestrian oriented neighborhoods in Houston are growing. Theey are growing because people want to live there. Screw the efficiency, a lot of people want to live in a pedestrian oriented environment and the businesses will follow them!

[TheNiche]

But do lots of Houstonians really want to live in pedestrian-oriented neighborhoods where (1) rents and mortgages are higher due to dense clusters around rail stops, (2) parking is scarce and expensive and (3) congestion is much greater?

Yes. Otherwise the rents and mortgages wouldn't be so high.

Your other points were valid, though.

[musicman]

Just like Sakoitz (sp?) left downtown and amazingly Macy's stayed, they are both region-wide serving retailers.

Sakowitz closed because of bankruptcy due to bad expansion decisions.

[ricco67]

Since most people won't use the transit system except to go into and out of dense areas, does that mean that the Houston P&R system is a failure, along with the P&R options for the rodeo and other major events?

Houston will be more dense and it will occur long after we're probably dead, but it will happen. Your argument that Houston will always be a car city is tiring. If what you say is true, houston shall be a city with a perpetual rush hour as the population increases and more business start moving into downtown.

[TheNiche]

Statistically pedestrian oriented neighborhoods in Houston are growing. Theey are growing because people want to live there. Screw the efficiency, a lot of people want to live in a pedestrian oriented environment and the businesses will follow them!

Count the dots on the map. There are only several hundred people willing or able to walk to work in any given neighborhood. Even if these areas with disproportionate volumes of pedestrian activity as compared to the region are growing (and it is debatable that any neighborhood in Houston is 'pedestrian-oriented'), pedestrian activity seems unlikely to increase at a rate rapid enough to justify businesses that can be entirely dependent upon foot traffic at any time in the immediate future.

[JSB]

Has anybody here ever owned a business in a pedestrian oriented area?

There are some businesses like coffee shops which only serve their direct neighborhood. For these businesses, business in pedestrian oriented areas and auto oriented areas is probably the same. There are also businesses like IKEA which require region-wide business. These businesses tend to not open in pedestrian oriented areas. Just like Sakoitz (sp?) left downtown and amazingly Macy's stayed, they are both region-wide serving retailers. It takes a large amount of people in the area for them to open a store. Just like in San Francisco's Union Square, big league region-wide retailers like Macy's and Dillard's and Nordstrom's have opened there because there are so many tourists. However, mostly these regionwide serving retailers tend not to open in pedestrian oriented areas.

Try living in the center of a dense Northeastern city and doing your shopping at a downtown Macy's. It's fine for going in, trying things on and carrying a few items home, but if you buy anything more than what you can easily carry, you get to face the following after making your transaction at Macy's:

1. Walk to the subway. Which may be a block or two away, or not, depending on how close Macy's is to the station.

2. Wait for the subway. Which may come frequently, or not, depending on the time of day.

3. Ride the subway. Which may be packed, or not, depending on the time of day.

4. Walk back to your apartment, condo or townhome. Which may be a block or two away, or not, depending on how much you were willing to spend to live near the station.

5. Get your car. Assuming it was worth having one, given the traffic, and whether you have the option and can afford to buy parking or there is street parking near where you live. Otherwise, you can wait for a friend or relative to give you a ride.

6. Negotiate the congestion back to Macy's. Which may be awful, or not, depending on the time of day.

7. Figure out where to park near Macy's. Which may be a block or two away, or not.

8. Haul your stuff from Macy's to your car.

9. Negotiate the congestion back to your apartment, condo or townhome.

10. Find parking.

11. Haul your stuff from your car to your apartment, condo or townhome.

Add beating sun, snow or rain to taste.

Making a run to Ikea is even more fun. It's usually an all-day affair, driving far, far, far out of town, which is the only place where Ikea could affordably locate. Fighting your way out, fighting your way back in, finding a loading dock to park to bring stuff up, getting into an argument with the building manager because you're using the loading dock when someone else has signed up for it exclusively to move that day, etc., etc., etc.

I'd just as soon go to the Macy's at Memorial City on the day after Thanksgiving to similate something similar in convenience and efficiency.