Northgate Forest Wants To Secede From Spring ISD?

[VicMan]

I wonder if Spring ISD will be just like Aldine in 15 years...

I wonder how Westfield and Spring people typically do on AP Tests. I passed English Language with a 3, so I guess that's a good sign...

By the way, I got "5"s on US History and World History.

[CDeb]

I wonder if Spring ISD will be just like Aldine in 15 years...

I wonder how Westfield and Spring people typically do on AP Tests. I passed English Language with a 3, so I guess that's a good sign...

By the way, I got "5"s on US History and World History.

I went to Westfield and got a 4 on the English Literature test, but that was back in 1995. We had an outstanding AP English teacher who has since retired.

[ChampionsAdam]

I support the residents of Northgate wholeheartedly. As a Greenwood Forest resident I can understand the frustration that they feel. While I could go on and on with the reasons why I feel both Spring and Klein have failed the homeowners in the area, I won't. Suffice to say I simply vote NO in the bond elections.

[ENGcons]

I support the residents of Northgate wholeheartedly. As a Greenwood Forest resident I can understand the frustration that they feel. While I could go on and on with the reasons why I feel both Spring and Klein have failed the homeowners in the area, I won't. Suffice to say I simply vote NO in the bond elections.

I am sorry to hear that, and I seriously doubt you can go on and on about how Klein has failed homeowners. I think the board is doing a pretty good job in dealing with the incredible growth in the area. I might disagree on some zoning issues myself but that is what School board meeting are for, and there is an opportunity for the citizens to speak at those. I grew up in Greenwood, graduated form KF in 1990, and my parents still live in Greenwood. It is unfortunate the decline at KF but that has nothing to do with the School Board, they have no control as to who moves into certain areas. The demographics at KF certinly have changed over the years, but how does voting NO in bond elections, which are needed so desperatly in Klein to build new schools for areas that are currently overcrowded solve your problem? Does holdng back on needed funds to upgrade facilities, and build new and better ones for kids solve your specific issue? No it doesn't, and your approach does not make sense. The rest of the district should not have to suffer because you are not a real-estate genius. Sorry, but the board did not tell you to buy your home where you did, and the board does not have a say in who moves into the Klein school district. You can always move.

[mrfootball]

Greenwood, Huntwick 5 & 6, Woods of Wimbledon, Brandonwood and Edinburgh Estates ought to do the same thing and threaten to leave Klein ISD (for Cy-Creek). If anything, they might swing a re-zone to Klein HS. Seems like Huntwick (sec. 5 & 6) should have an easy argument as most of the rest of the neighborhood opted back in the late 1970's for Cy-Creek and CFISD. A smart choice, looking back.

I grew up in Greenwood Forest through the 3rd grade (the current KISD superintendant, Jim Cain, was the Principal of GFE back then)...then moved to Ponderosa Forest. It's been sad to see these great neighborhoods get dragged down by the element that's moved into their respective school zones.

Simple solution to save them and instantly lift property (taxable) value?...rezone. It's a smarter choice for the district to foster growth and enrollment strategies that maximize property values and revenue, in Greenwood's case, I think it conceivable that with a more desireable school zone, avg home values ($144k) could rise an avg of $40k each x 1596 homes, raising the taxable value of this neighborhood alone by over $60,000,000/per annum.

I realize its not entirely that simple, but it does illustrate how much money they're (KISD) leaving on the table by having these neighborhoods zoned to these undesireable schools.

They can't control who moves into the district, but they can protect homeowners who pay more than their fair share in taxes due to the ridiculous funding scheme we've got here in Texas that places the brunt of the burden on homeowners.

The same applies to Olde Oaks, Northgate, Ponderosa and Westador over in Spring ISD as well.

[VicMan]

Yeah - I wonder how it would work if Spring ISD and Klein ISD were put together.

I am developing a plan for a different school district system in the Houston area... And I want to know how it would work if Klein and Spring (minus the Houston portion of Spring ISD; All of Houston would be in Houston ISD) were in one school district called "North Harris ISD".

[pineda]

I am developing a plan for a different school district system in the Houston area

Wow, that's pretty ambitious of you! Aren't you still in high school, Vic? Who are you developing the plan for?

[Chris]

Yeah - I wonder how it would work if Spring ISD and Klein ISD were put together.

I am developing a plan for a different school district system in the Houston area... And I want to know how it would work if Klein and Spring (minus the Houston portion of Spring ISD; All of Houston would be in Houston ISD) were in one school district called "North Harris ISD".

If Klein and Spring ISD were combined that would be about 74,000 students in over 65 Campuses. I want to see this plan you are developing.

[mrfootball]

I'm not sure that's such a great idea. Big school districts lead to slow decision making and cumbersome bureacracy. Often, everything gets muddled down to satisfy everyone and everyone suffers. Bigger is not always better. IMO, school districts should be smaller, more local, and made more accountable.

[Chris]

I'm not sure that's such a great idea. Big school districts lead to slow decision making and cumbersome bureacracy. Often, everything gets muddled down to satisfy everyone and everyone suffers. Bigger is not always better. IMO, school districts should be smaller, more local, and more accountable.

Even though HISD is the largest School District in the state and 8th largest in the country, It's by no means the best school district. I dont think it's that great at all, but every move they make ther're on the news.(Bond Programs ECT.)

[VicMan]

Wow, that's pretty ambitious of you! Aren't you still in high school, Vic? Who are you developing the plan for?

I eventually would like to submit the ideas to my Texas House Representative.

The idea to combine Spring and Klein is not particularly important, though; if the best thing for the residents there is to keep the two districts separate, I wouldn't mind that. I'm just trying to see if the idea would work. The main reason why I proposed the idea is so some neighborhoods currently split in half (with some in Klein and some in Spring) would now be in the same school district.

The main reason why I would like to create a larger Houston ISD, though, is to allow for more choice and for more specialization of schools in the Houston city limits. E.G. I would like to introduce more standalone magnets for a larger student "pool" which would consist of the entire Houston city limits, Bellaire, West University, Southside Place, all six Memorial villages, and some unincorporated sections of Harris County. I would also insert existing magnets into high-performing schools like Memorial and Kingwood to allow a select number of out-of-boundary students to attend the said schools and to add specialized course offerings to the said schools.

I understand, though, that creating a large (Houston) district would create more beauracratic hassles, so I wish to find a solution that would retain some local control while at the same time making the schools accountable to the same central authority.

EDIT: Had to include "Texas"

[ChampionsAdam]

I am sorry to hear that, and I seriously doubt you can go on and on about how Klein has failed homeowners. I think the board is doing a pretty good job in dealing with the incredible growth in the area. I might disagree on some zoning issues myself but that is what School board meeting are for, and there is an opportunity for the citizens to speak at those. I grew up in Greenwood, graduated form KF in 1990, and my parents still live in Greenwood. It is unfortunate the decline at KF but that has nothing to do with the School Board, they have no control as to who moves into certain areas. The demographics at KF certinly have changed over the years, but how does voting NO in bond elections, which are needed so desperatly in Klein to build new schools for areas that are currently overcrowded solve your problem? Does holdng back on needed funds to upgrade facilities, and build new and better ones for kids solve your specific issue? No it doesn't, and your approach does not make sense. The rest of the district should not have to suffer because you are not a real-estate genius. Sorry, but the board did not tell you to buy your home where you did, and the board does not have a say in who moves into the Klein school district. You can always move.

If you knew me I assure you you would not make the comment about my Real Estate knowledge, which again would beg the question if Greenwood Forest is not such a great investment why have your parents stayed? You are obviously looking for a debate and I'm not in the mood to entertain you. The decline at Klein Forest does have quite a bit to do with Klein ISD and it's leadership or lack thereof. When you cannot send your children to school because of problems (which I won't go into), then yes, there is a problem and the district needs to address them. The school has a perceived negative reputation and that in and of itself is a problem. As I've said before and I'll say it again, if Greenwood Forest declines so will the rest of the area and so will the tax base in the area. The districts need to listen on the desires of it's taxpayers.

[ChampionsAdam]

Greenwood, Huntwick 5 & 6, Woods of Wimbledon, Brandonwood and Edinburgh Estates ought to do the same thing and threaten to leave Klein ISD (for Cy-Creek). If anything, they might swing a re-zone to Klein HS. Seems like Huntwick (sec. 5 & 6) should have an easy argument as most of the rest of the neighborhood opted back in the late 1970's for Cy-Creek and CFISD. A smart choice, looking back.

I grew up in Greenwood Forest through the 3rd grade (the current KISD superintendant, Jim Cain, was the Principal of GFE back then)...then moved to Ponderosa Forest. It's been sad to see these great neighborhoods get dragged down by the element that's moved into their respective school zones.

Simple solution to save them and instantly lift property (taxable) value?...rezone. It's a smarter choice for the district to foster growth and enrollment strategies that maximize property values and revenue, in Greenwood's case, I think it conceivable that with a more desireable school zone, avg home values ($144k) could rise an avg of $40k each x 1596 homes, raising the taxable value of this neighborhood alone by over $60,000,000/per annum.

I realize its not entirely that simple, but it does illustrate how much money they're (KISD) leaving on the table by having these neighborhoods zoned to these undesireable schools.

They can't control who moves into the district, but they can protect homeowners who pay more than their fair share in taxes due to the ridiculous funding scheme we've got here in Texas that places the brunt of the burden on homeowners.

The same applies to Olde Oaks, Northgate, Ponderosa and Westador over in Spring ISD as well.

Thank you

[mrfootball]

So is there any movement at a grass roots level in these other neighborhoods (other than Northgate)?

[ChampionsAdam]

So is there any movement at a grass roots level in these other neighborhoods (other than Northgate)?

I've heard rumbling in Ponderosa, Northgate would probably have luck working with Olde Oaks, Ponderosa and Westador...my sister home schools her children because Bammel Middle is so terrible, sad when you pay high school taxes and you can't even send your children to learn.

[ENGcons]

ChampoinAdam since you are unable to actually post a fact in your argument it has no credibility. My parents stay in Greenwood because they like the neighborhood, they have no more children in school and have lived in the house for years. Why move? The same question can be asked of you, if you are such a real estate guru why did you buy in Greenwood instead of a more stable neighborhood that would appreciate? There are plenty to choose from.

You just sound like a child who isn't getting their way. You choosing to where you buy a house is nobody's decision but your own, same with everyone else. It sounds like you are regretting it and want to cry on a message board about how you are getting screwed by the Big Bad Klein ISD Board who is out to get you and you and destroy your property value.

Instead of crying on a message board about your phantom issues try going to a school board meeting and presenting a credible argument in a constructive way. If you are upset Klein did not build a new HS down south or re zone Greenwood to Klein HS then you must be one of those people who want those evil minorities off your turf causing all those problems for you. You can forget it, the board made the right decision on how to spend the bond money at KF. Other areas in the district have far greater needs with overcrowding than what is going on at KF. Shame you are so wound up in your own mad cause that you won't/can't explain that is apparantly the KISD Boards fault. Sounds more like you are looking for someone else to blame for your own real estate problems. If the issues at KF that you have yet to speak of were so easy to solve don't you think they would be solved? Don't you think that every school district in the country that had a discipline problem at a school would take care of it easily if it were possible? Since you seem to know how to fix it, march down to the school boards office on Jan 9th at 7 pm and let them know. That is the next time they are meeting. Otherwise stay home on election day instead of voting no on bond issues that are needed just for spite, it is childish.

[mrfootball]

Ponderosa is still a pretty neighborhood, it's well-maintained. A lot of the original residents still live there. It's right across Cypress Creek from Cypresswood. Taking all of those neighborhoods on that side of 1960 and rezoning to Klein ISD would make geographic sense. Demographically they're identical to the KISD neighborhoods in the area.

There's also the option of creating a new school district, the Texas Education code states that you may do this if the area involved encompasses 8,000 students and 9 square miles (I would bet you could easily hit that number if you put all of the neighborhoods we've discussed in this thread and had them create a district. It could even be geographically contiguous).

13.101. CREATION OF DISTRICT BY DETACHING TERRITORY

ChampionsAdam - will they (Ponderosa/Westador) be making a similar announcement (a la Northgate) soon?

EngCons - no need to make it a personal thing with ChampionsAdam whom I think is right. Those schools (Westfield & KF) are nothing like what they were when we were there. They've become dangerous places - if it weren't for the drugs, gangs, fights, violence, distractions, and overall decline in learning environment, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this discussion about declining property values in areas that could (and should) be strong. It is what it is and people who live there have a right to be angry, people have a right to try and change things.

[ChampionsAdam]

I'm not sure what the answer is? Everyone in the area selling out would be devastating to the 1960 area, many have due to the declining schools in the area. redrawing the boundaries would be nice and it makes perfect sense for those living west of I-45 and north of 1960. The district would not like it as it has a higher tax base in those areas. The districts, both Spring and Klein are aware of the problems and the upset residents. My sister was told with a wink and a smile by a Spring ISD employee not to send her children to Bammel Middle, my niece spent one day there before her mother and grandparents pulled her out, she had been treated so poorly by other students and when she tried to talk to the administrators not only did they turn a blind eye but lied to my father (her grandfather). I have a neighbor who has a daughter attending Klein Forest and is bullied by the other kids, the parents have talked to the school about it and nothing has been resolved to my knowledge. The parents are now considering private school for their daughter. During the last bond initiative (and I've tried in vain to find it again online) the Klein ISD did a survey to find out why there was such a slim margin for the last bond passing, they discovered that most of those residents zoned to Klein Forest voted NO to the initiative. This was not to punish children, but hopefully to open the eyes of the district. I personally hate the idea of funneling almost $3,000 a year to schools that give my neighborhood a black eye.

[mrfootball]

How about something like this?

I don't think there'd be much trouble getting this through the county commissioner's office, as Bob Eckels lives in Woods of Wimbledon. I imagine he understands what it would mean to the county if the home values in this area rose by 20% or more.

[SpringTX]

I've seen first-hand that overcrowded schools (Bammel Middle School in particular) are exponentially more dangerous in terms of physical violence. My daughter and her friends and classmates were victims of some very bad stuff when Bammel was at its peak enrollment back in 2002 (I think it was 1,800 kids in the old building). I'm talking about kids getting jumped and being hospitalized. The district finally built another middle school (Claughton) and a lot of the violence was reduced the moment they reduced the numbers on campus.

If someone votes "no" as some misguided means of trying to "send a signal" to the district, they're not just being counterproductive...they're recklessly increasing the danger to those kids in those overcrowded schools.

Maybe it would be a different case at middle-class schools that become overcrowded. But when ghetto schools become overcrowded, they become war zones. Bammel was like a military zone of stringent rules to try to control the kids: rigid dress code, staircases and halls segregated by age, assigned seating at lunches, pep rallies discontinued, strict bus line procedures, harsh punishments for minor misconduct, etc.

But even at higher socioeconomic levels, overcrowding hurts: whether it's test scores or skipping school or petty vandalism or whatever. When they built the second high school in The Woodlands and finally relieved the pressure of overcrowding, academic ratings went up. And allegedly a lot of rowdiness went away.

And blaming the school district for reacting slowly or ineffectively against an influx of ghetto residents is a bit harsh. No school district is ever well-prepared for a situation like that. And no school district ever wants to have the appearance of being racist. And no school district can ever really avoid feeling like, no matter what action they took, they couldn't please everyone. Not to mention that these demographic changes sometimes happen very quickly, and in unpredictable patterns, and school districts are often very conservative organizations.

While re-zoning good neighborhoods in SISD and KISD to better schools would be nice, no matter how you do the math, you're going to wind up short. You can't create a 90% black high school with 3000 students and a 60% white school with 1000 students without Reverend Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson showing up outside your administration building with picket signs and TV cameras.

The only proven successful formula is the one they've been using in HISD and other inner-city districts for years: magnet schools. Spring and Klein both have magnet schools now. And apparently the one in Spring is very good. I can't wait to see its state rating later in the year - if it gets a Recognized or even an Exemplary rating, you can bet that alone will increase property values 5% overnight. One of the magnet schools in Aldine gets Exemplary ratings from time to time.

If you live in Ponderosa Forest or Greenwood Forest, you need to stop worrying about the lost cause...and start focusing on the daylight. And the daylight is your new magnet schools.

[VicMan]

Hmm - What if one could compromise by including those areas (the areas wanting out of Klein Forest / Westfield ) in a large North Harris (Spring + Klein) ISD, and add a few apartment complexes to make the civil rights activists happy?

Each of the three schools (Klein Forest, Westfield, and the new school) would start out with around 2,000 students.

The new school could be named after:

* Any of the neighborhoods rezoned to the new school

* Elizabeth Kaiser Meyer (After the park)

* Jerry Eversole (Commissioner of Harris County Precinct 4)

By the way, I don't recall any Civil Rights complaints when West Briar Middle School opened in far West Houston in 2002. Almost overnight, Revere MS turned from a somewhat-middle class school with about a third White, Hispanic, and Black population to a low income Black and Hispanic school. West Briar started out as a 30% low income, 50% White school.

[VicMan]

By the way:

* http://dept.houstonisd.org/profiles/Westbriar_MS.pdf - West Briar - opened 2002

* http://dept.houstonisd.org/profiles/Revere_MS.pdf - Revere - Opened in the 1980s - Had a demographic change when West Briar opened

Ladies and gentlemen, we could have the new Spring/Klein HS as the "West Briar" and Klein Forest and Westfield as the "Revere"s.

[mrfootball]

I think the argument should be framed in a manner that eliminates race, because I don't think most people care about what race you are - it's more about values. Also, government studies show that once the 'economically disadvantaged' student population goes over a certain percentage - it generally detracts from the learning environment.

Many of these homeowners have watched their schools go from 5% Economicallly Disadvantaged to well over 65%.

There are enough apartments in the areas highlighted to satisfy any potential discord. The problem (as we recall) is that there are TOO MANY apartments zoned to Westfield and KF.

I can hear the battle cries now...

"We didn't land in the Ghetto...the Ghetto landed on us!"

[VicMan]

So, we could open a new high school (and possibly a new middle school too) that only has a few apartments, with a mostly homeowner population.

Mrfootball, what should be the working name of the proposed high school?

I think the argument should be framed in a manner that eliminates race, because I don't think most people care about what race you are - it's more about values. Also, government studies show that once the 'economically disadvantaged' student population goes over a certain percentage - it generally detracts from the learning environment.

Many of these homeowners have watched their schools go from 5% Economicallly Disadvantaged to well over 65%.

There are enough apartments in the areas highlighted to satisfy any potential discord. The problem (as we recall) is that there are TOO MANY apartments zoned to Westfield and KF.

I can hear the battle cries now...

"We didn't land in the Ghetto...the Ghetto landed on us!"

[mrfootball]

John Hughes High School

[houstonmacbro]

yeah, i was wondering the same thing. but i have a family member (that lives in champions) and wonder how he feels.

I think the argument should be framed in a manner that eliminates race, because I don't think most people care about what race you are - it's more about values. Also, government studies show that once the 'economically disadvantaged' student population goes over a certain percentage - it generally detracts from the learning environment.

Many of these homeowners have watched their schools go from 5% Economicallly Disadvantaged to well over 65%.

There are enough apartments in the areas highlighted to satisfy any potential discord. The problem (as we recall) is that there are TOO MANY apartments zoned to Westfield and KF.

I can hear the battle cries now...

"We didn't land in the Ghetto...the Ghetto landed on us!"

everything in this country eventually, and sadly ... boils down, at some point, to race, gender, or class.

[VicMan]

John Hughes High School

Ah, the director of Ferris Bueller's - In fact, I'll use that as a working name for the heck of it.

Anyway - The attendance zone of Hughes HS would include the following elementary schools:

Spring ISD:

* Bammel

* Ponderosa

** most of it - north of F.M. 1960, is zoned to Hughes only

** south of F.M 1960 is a choice between Westfield and Hughes

* Reynolds

* Beneke (Not of "protesting" subdivisions)

* Part of Meyer (Westfield OR Hughes)

Klein ISD:

* Greenwood Forest (Klein Forest OR Hughes)

* Part of Mittelstadt (Klein Forest OR Hughes)

The areas of the proposed HS and MS are currently zoned to:

Spring ISD:

* Bammel MS

* Wells MS

(See middle school zoning boundary here http://www.springisd.org/docs2/attendance/...8-06_middle.pdf )

Klein ISD:

* Wunderlich MS

The portion of Bammel MS zone that is zoned to Hughes HS would only include Ponderosa/Bammel north of FM 1960 - the portion of Bammel MS south of 1960 that is also Ponderosa ES' zone is zoned to both Westfield and Hughes. The Ponderosa ES zone that is zoned to only Hughes has a choice between Bammel MS and Wells MS.

So, what we should do is build new schools to relieve Wells, Bammel, and Wunderlich of many of the apartment complex-zoned residents (the middle school to relieve Wells and Bammel should be built close to or east of I-45, while the school to relieve Wunderlich should be somewhere between Wunderlich and Klein IS/MS) . The attendance boundaries of those three middle schools should primairly be made up of residents of the Greenwood Forest/Ponderosa/Bammel communities. Portions of Wunderlich and Bammel (the portions with the said communities, of course) and all of Wells would feed into the newly established Hughes HS.

The actual portion of Greenwood Forest/Mittelstadt part/Wunderlich would be jointly zoned to Klein Forest and Hughes, with the parents of the zone deciding which high school to be assigned to (like Lee/Lamar/Westside in Houston ISD). Most of the "Spring ISD" portion of Hughes would be only zoned to Hughes, while some parts are jointly zoned to Hughes and Westfield.

This would give North Harris nine high schools and sixteen middle schools.

Mrfootball, be sure to critique my idea and tweak the attendance boundaries a bit, if you would like

[SpringTX]

The current situation is a kind of tragedy. You have all these communities like Ponderosa Forest and Greenwood Forest which have large, custom-built, well-made houses with lots of bedrooms, large lots, mature trees, lush ladnscaping, and reasonable prices (reasonable land values). These house are relatively young (built in the 70's and 80's) compared to stuff inside the loop, mostly well-maintained, and often upgraded. These were designed for families. You can't find subdivisions like these in the inner loop.

And simply because of the way the school districts are drawn, and because developers crammed way too many low-income apartment complexes into an area (which can actually be stopped on legal grounds for that very reason), families with kids can't live there. The home values aren't high enough for the private school crowd. And the values aren't low enough to attract low-income families who don't mind violent and low-performing schools.

These communities are trapped, catering mostly to older people without kids...who happen to want really large houses with lots of extra bedrooms. The communities attract middle-class blacks and middle-class Hispanics, but from my experience, these families have been fleeing just as fast as (if not faster than) the middle-class whites. More of the houses are becoming rental units. An increasing number are being abandoned. Some of the houses are being seriously neglected.

And every year, the real estate agents in the area sucker more unsuspecting victims who aren't familiar with the area. And most of these buyers turn around and try to get out within a couple years, inevitably at a huge monetary loss. And the realtors clean up again. When we moved last year, there were 13 For Sale signs on the 2 blocks of our street. It was ridiculous. It's just a big real estate shuffle, and the only ones getting rich are the real estate agents.

From an economic perspective, it's a completely inefficient situation. Great housing stock being left to rot. And the root of the problem is simply the school district lines. In HISD, families can choose different schools. The new magnet schools are a step in the right direction. Until some solution comes along to address the insane school boundaries for these communities, it's going to continue to be a tragedy.

[ChampionsAdam]

Agreed and re-drawing the boundary lines makes pefect sense.

[cfresident]

What is the new magnet school in Klein?