Statue Of American Soldier And Iraqi Girl In Iraq

[TheNiche]

http://www.army.mil/ is an Army website.

He was paid-not forced-by saddam and he didn't melt down anything.

To be clear, does anybody here think that a sculptor living in Iraq could have gotten away with refusing work from Saddam? I mean, the guy didn't exactly have a great track record when it came to dissidents. And of course Saddam had to pay his sculptor...otherwise this sculptor would starve and die instead of living and sculpting. Does payment mean anything else in this case? I doubt it.

I know that nmainguy ignores my posts, so it'd be helpful if somebody else would quote me in full. Thanks.

[Gary]

I agree. Why didn't the Army just leave it at that instead of embelishing with lies?

See this is what I'm talking about. You keep talking about what rotten scoundrels the military are because of there horrible lie, yet when the Dems put out there own piece of propoganda, you say nothing. No I don't know your families history, but time and again I here you and others riding the conservatives or military in a way that you won't ride your own.

As was said above, the U.S. military has and still does support our way of life. They are the most compassionate army on Earth, as well as the best army on Earth. Imo, They and their leaders deserve a little less anger and alot more gratitude than I see displayed on this forum.

[RedScare]

I think it's beautiful.

The government commissioned the Iwo Jima Memorial, so is that propaganda too?

*sigh*

I do agree though, I get SO mad when my Uncle (USN, ret.) sends me stuff that I just KNOW was twisted by somebody. Every once in a while, I have to send him an email back trying to clear some big rumor up...sometimes people just suck.

Well.....the memorial is based on a staged photograph. The original flag raising was not photographed. And, the photo was immediately used to sell war bonds. So, it could be argued that the memorial is based on propaganda.

I DO agree with your point, though. When crap is doctored up and sent through email, it cheapens the real thing. And, when the government does it, it raises suspicion about everything else.

[musicman]

http://www.army.mil/ is an Army website.

Clearly the email mirrors the mis-information put out by the Army. Did an officer compose and send the email? I'll concede that I don't know. I will however stand by my stated opinion that a sincere good deed needs no embelishment. To do otherwise only diminishes it.

I just read the army website post. It seems pretty benign vs. the initial post here. What mis-information did the Army put out on their website?

[Jeebus]

Well.....the memorial is based on a staged photograph. The original flag raising was not photographed.

The original flag raising was infact photographed, just not published. The second flag raising was not a staged photograph, but simply great coincidental timing of a bigger, more visible flag being put up with a photographer who had been there all day capturing another yet photograph. It wasn't until he got the film developed did he realize what he had captured.

The men did not pose for the photograph, nor was the photgraph altered, which is how I interpret "staged".

Just FYI..

[Mark F. Barnes]

The statue itself is propaganda. It's made to look as if Iraqi children (and therefor the people in general) support our troops. Whether they do or not depends on your perspective. But, commissioning this piece seems to try to influence that perception.

My son has been deployed in Iraq since his unit, the 10th Mountain Division, moved in from the north after being air lifted to Turkey from their original deployment in Afghanistan. This child's name is Afzal Muhammad he and his family are from Al Fallujah, where the 10th currently holds a position 40 miles from Baghdad. Afzal was not commissioned for this picture, nor was he forced into it. He just digs my son for some reason. I am sure there was a Hersey bar or two slipped to him over the past several years. And I know they like the MRE's they share with the locals. Point being there are actually people over there that are glad to see the troops there, and in the same instance there are little boys just like Afzal packing AK-47's and explosives that would blow Jason up in a minute. I am thankful everyday I get that email telling me otherwise. My son has been there throughout this entire conflict, because he feels he needs to be. He has had the option to remain stateside or TDY in another capacity, after his first three tours. However he chooses to stay. That is his choice, good or bad, it's his. Would I rather have him out of harms way, sure, any parent would. But he's a grown man, and when he graduated from A&M through the Corp, he obligated himself to at least six years in the military. I fly a flag in front of my property, he sent me from the sandbox, that flew in battle, and I fly it for him. and to show my support for what he is doing, and for no other reason. I don't honor the politics surrounding this battle, nor any propaganda that derives there of. Propaganda is nothing new in the time of war, it's been around since the days of the revolution. Sometimes it is used as a tool to boost morale of one side, sometimes it's used to break the morale of the other.

If any of you minnows out there are old enough to remember "Hanoi Hannah", she broadcast her propaganda radio show three times a day from Hanoi during the Vietnam War urging GI's to quit fighting the war, and if you were in country north of Pleiku you heard it everyday.

The US dropped these from C-130's all the time to make a futile attempt at breaking the morale of the VC. There were death cards used to play minds games with the enemy, you name it they tried it. From leaflets to Jimi Hendrix, the art of psychological warfare's main tool is propaganda. It's nothing new and comes in all forms, and it's all part of the game. What do you think those video tapes of the Taliban leaders are for? It's all propaganda and a ploy to direct emotions in the direction that their cause is targeted.

Perhaps the whole target for the emails was to start disruptive argument amongst the infidels! Well it's working isn't it. Emails like those I usually delete without full reading them, because 99.99% of them are bullshit factually and mostly someones view that they want to distribute for free via the Internet, to get a rise out of the people that go for it. There are websites full of them!

You don't have to like the Politics or the war, just don't let all the dislike keep you from caring about the boys and girls that are over there laying it on the line. They deserve respect from each and every individual in the USA, regardless of you political affiliation or views on the war.

[Gary]

Fantastic post Mark! You should bolg that.

[dalparadise]

You don't have to like the Politics or the war, just don't let all the dislike keep you from caring about the boys and girls that are over there laying it on the line. They deserve respect from each and every individual in the USA, regardless of you political affiliation or views on the war.

I merely stated that whether or not the people of Iraq support our being there is a matter of perspective -- and a frequently shifting perspective, at that. I did not state my personal perspective on the matter.

[Gary]

The statue itself is propaganda. It's made to look as if Iraqi children (and therefor the people in general) support our troops. Whether they do or not depends on your perspective. But, commissioning this piece seems to try to influence that perception.

First of all, "propoganda" is a very strong word. Secondly, either the Iraqi's like us or they don't "perspective" has nothing to do with it. Thirdly, what's wrong with trying to influence the perception of goodness and compassion? God know's that all we hear is negative things about the war, hardly ever do you see anything positive like this.

[Mark F. Barnes]

The statue itself is propaganda. It's made to look as if Iraqi children (and therefor the people in general) support our troops. Whether they do or not depends on your perspective. But, commissioning this piece seems to try to influence that perception.

I merely stated that whether or not the people of Iraq support our being there is a matter of perspective -- and a frequently shifting perspective, at that. I did not state my personal perspective on the matter.

What part of the original is not a personal perspective of yours? Are you quoting someone else? If not it's your post and it is a perspective in itself. Am I wrong? If you are quoting someone else I stand to be corrected.

[dalparadise]

What part of the original is not a personal perspective of yours? Are you quoting someone else? If not it's your post and it is a perspective in itself. Am I wrong? If you are quoting someone else I stand to be corrected.

I concede that I offer my interpretation of the statue, but I offer it objectively. Placing an Iraqi child in the statue consoling a soldier suggests to me that the message is "Iraq mourns our fallen soldiers". Stating this interpretation of the sculpture in no way indicates whether or not I agree with it.

I pointed it out as a vehicle of propaganda -- a point you went on to define for me as "part of warfare". We do not disagree on this.

First of all, "propoganda" is a very strong word. Secondly, either the Iraqi's like us or they don't "perspective" has nothing to do with it. Thirdly, what's wrong with trying to influence the perception of goodness and compassion? God know's that all we hear is negative things about the war, hardly ever do you see anything positive like this.

Well -- as Mark pointed out, there are Iraqis who fire guns on one group of soldiers on one day and mob others for chocolate bars the next. If you polled soldiers from both of those experiences, I'd bet you'd get varying perspectives. The fact that warring factions have risen up to try to kill our soldiers and disrupt our mission there, while others vote and plan for a new government is also evidence of varying perspectives. I never stated there was anything wrong with trying to influence one perspective or another. I merely noted that I believe the people who commissioned this statue were attempting to do it.

I do agree with you that perhaps "propaganda" as you may define it is not the right word -- it got a nasty connotation in the Cold War. But, it just means advertising, as I intended to use it...

prop?a?gan?da? [prop-uh-gan-duh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

Edited November 8, 2006 by dalparadise

[TheNiche]

I concede that I offer my interpretation of the statue, but I offer it objectively. Placing an Iraqi child in the statue consoling a soldier suggests to me that the message is "Iraq mourns our fallen soldiers". Stating this interpretation of the sculpture in no way indicates whether or not I agree with it.

I pointed it out as a vehicle of propaganda -- a point you went on to define for me as "part of warfare". We do not disagree on this.

Well -- as Mark pointed out, there are Iraqis who fire guns on one group of soldiers on one day and mob others for chocolate bars the next. If you polled soldiers from both of those experiences, I'd bet you'd get varying perspectives. The fact that warring factions have risen up to try to kill our soldiers and disrupt our mission there, while others vote and plan for a new government is also evidence of varying perspectives. I never stated there was anything wrong with trying to influence one perspective or another. I merely noted that I believe the people who commissioned this statue were attempting to do it.

Interesting about your acceptance of varying perspectives, but your firm, "objective," stance that the statue sends the message that "Iraq mourns our fallen soldiers." Perhaps the message is that a little Iraqi girl once mourned a soldier. Perhaps it has nothing to do with Iraqis as a whole and everything to do with the individual experience of one individual soldier and one individual girl in a time of sorrow. Or perhaps the girl symbolizes a particular subset of the Iraqi population. Children perhaps...or children within a particular region or faction...or perhaps children have very little to do with it at all...perhaps the statue symbolizes some aspect of the new freedoms afforded many Iraqi women. Or perhaps the statue can mean all these things and much more to many different people. In any case, your interpretation is hardly objective, whether or not you agree with yourself.

Edited November 8, 2006 by TheNiche

[nmainguy]

http://www.army.mil/ is an Army website.

He was paid-not forced-by saddam and he didn't melt down anything.

Clearly the email mirrors the mis-information put out by the Army. Did an officer compose and send the email? I'll concede that I don't know. I will however stand by my stated opinion that a sincere good deed needs no embelishment. To do otherwise only diminishes it.

What mis-information did the Army put out on their website?

The above^: "He was paid-not forced-by saddam and he didn't melt down anything." The Army melted down the bronze. The Army commisioned the sculptor and supplied the bronze. Why embellish an already great story? All you do is devalue the otherwise good intention. Now everyone questions the validity of the entire incident whereas if the Army hadn't lied, we would not be discussing it. They have no one to blame but themselves.

[TheNiche]

The above^: "He was paid-not forced-by saddam and he didn't melt down anything." The Army melted down the bronze. The Army commisioned the sculptor and supplied the bronze. Why embellish an already great story? All you do is devalue the otherwise good intention. Now everyone questions the validity of the entire incident whereas if the Army hadn't lied, we would not be discussing it. They have no one to blame but themselves.

Somebody please quote post #31 in full. Thank you.

[TJones]

nmain, Niche really really wants you to please read this.

To be clear, does anybody here think that a sculptor living in Iraq could have gotten away with refusing work from Saddam? I mean, the guy didn't exactly have a great track record when it came to dissidents. And of course Saddam had to pay his sculptor...otherwise this sculptor would starve and die instead of living and sculpting. Does payment mean anything else in this case? I doubt it.

I know that nmainguy ignores my posts, so it'd be helpful if somebody else would quote me in full. Thanks.

Edited November 8, 2006 by TJones

[Mark F. Barnes]

I concede that I offer my interpretation of the statue, but I offer it objectively. Placing an Iraqi child in the statue consoling a soldier suggests to me that the message is "Iraq mourns our fallen soldiers". Stating this interpretation of the sculpture in no way indicates whether or not I agree with it.

I pointed it out as a vehicle of propaganda -- a point you went on to define for me as "part of warfare". We do not disagree on this.

I do agree with you that perhaps "propaganda" as you may define it is not the right word -- it got a nasty connotation in the Cold War. But, it just means advertising, as I intended to use it...

prop?a?gan?da? [prop-uh-gan-duh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

Edited November 8, 2006 by Mark F. Barnes

[dalparadise]

I am not questioning anyone's patriotism whatsoever. We all have choices and opinions, and the right to express them, but just remember those who died to give you that very right. Whether it was on the frozen ground at Valley Forge or the shores or Normandy, someone gave their life for you and everyone else in this country. Military people are military people, not everyone can be a soldier. Some people aren't built that way. Thank God there are those that are, because we need them. And those that aren't should support those that are, IMHO. Through all the politicians in a hole and bury them for all I care, but love your soldiers, because they love you. If they didn't they wouldn't be there, military life is a life of passion, they have to do it because they are passionate about their country and what it stands for. Like the politics or dislike them, we still live in the greatest country on earth. When disaster strikes or the crap hits the fan, everyone turns to the USA for help and guidance, like it or not, it's a fact. We have our demons to deal with, but it's still a great place to be.

We don't disagree on these points either.

Quote: "I was merely addressing your broad statement of the "perspective"(as you put it) of the Iraqi people and how they felt."

My "broad statement" was that the Iraqi people do not have a unanimous opinion on our presence there. You may have read into this as a statement of dissent. It was not my intention.

Edited November 8, 2006 by dalparadise

[dalparadise]

Interesting about your acceptance of varying perspectives, but your firm, "objective," stance that the statue sends the message that "Iraq mourns our fallen soldiers."

I said that it "suggests to me" this interpretation. I believe this to be an objective opinion. The fact that my interpretation may be incorrect makes it no less objective. I simply offered my interpretation and attempted to reach a logical conclusion as to the motives of the person who commissioned the piece.

That is the core of the discussion here -- since it has been revealed that this was not the inspiration of the sculptor, we can assume that there is some kind of motive on the part of the person commissioning the work. It may be the one I suggest or another. I believe this to be the very definition (granted, the third definition) of propaganda. That's the only thing I stated as fact.

On all the ramifications of the sculpture, I offered only my opinion and stated it as such.

In any case, your interpretation is hardly objective, whether or not you agree with yourself.

I didn't mean to mislead you into thinking I suggested that I didn't agree with myself (confusing, sorry). I meant to say that my stating my interpretation of the meaning of the statue was not intended to reflect my personal position on that meaning. It's merely what I saw in the statue.

[TheNiche]

It's merely what I saw in the statue.

So it is a subjective opinion. Not objective.

[dalparadise]

So it is a subjective opinion. Not objective.

touche.

In giving the opinion, I was trying to remain objective, relative to the way the original argument was going.

Will somebody please re-post all of this so nmainguy can read it?

Edited November 8, 2006 by dalparadise

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

You don't have to like the Politics or the war, just don't let all the dislike keep you from caring about the boys and girls that are over there laying it on the line. They deserve respect from each and every individual in the USA, regardless of you political affiliation or views on the war.

Very well said and very much appreciated!!! Tell your son to be safe and thanks for volunteering to keep us safe!

Its the US military juggernaut, staffed with very brave and highly skilled individuals that keeps us safe and free and not some overbloated politician barking to the masses. I get highly offended and often times belligerent to the core when people talk down on the military, especially those that dont know what its all about and i will not apologize for it!

I thought this was interesting and thought for sure someone here would know the specifics behind it. Glad to see that the knowlege here is so widespread. Keep on HAIF'ing HAIF'ers.

[nmainguy]

touche.

In giving the opinion, I was trying to remain objective, relative to the way the original argument was going.

Will somebody please re-post all of this so nmainguy can read it?

save your bandwidth

[musicman]

http://www.army.mil/ is an Army website.

he didn't melt down anything.

according to the article link you posted (i think) it says he casted it.

what are you reading that says he didn't?

Edited November 8, 2006 by musicman

[Parrothead]

Clint Eastwood's Flag of Our Fathers. Now Playing.

Great. That tells me...nothing.

I have a 17 month old at home. The next movie I am going to get to go see is probably going to be animated.

[nmainguy]

according to the article link you posted (i think) it says he casted it.

what are you reading that says he didn't?

In July 2003, Army engineers blew up the two Saddam statues, cut them into pieces, melted them down, and delivered them to Mr. Alussy's house.

He did cast it. That's what a sculptor does-or his assistant.

The army melted down some statues and gave him the bronze. I'm sure after he made his mould, he re-melted the bronze, pored it in and viola! It is cast!

[dalparadise]

Great. That tells me...nothing.

I have a 17 month old at home. The next movie I am going to get to go see is probably going to be animated.

It's the story of how the Iwo Jima Memorial was used as propaganda to raise war bonds during the waning years of WWII. Before anybody crucifies me -- in my opinion this fact does not take anything away from the memorial or what it represents.

[nmainguy]

It's the story of how the Iwo Jima Memorial was used as propaganda to raise war bonds during the waning years of WWII. Before anybody crucifies me -- in my opinion this fact does not take anything away from the memorial or what it represents.

Exactly my point. Why do all these gung-hoer's feel the need to embelish an already admirable jesture with lies. In my mind, the jesture speaks for it's self.

[Guest Marty]

I remember seeing the statue a while back on Fox cable news. It shows that the majority of Iraq's people appriaciate what America did for them.

[dalparadise]

I remember seeing the statue a while back on Fox cable news. It shows that the majority of Iraq's people appriaciate what America did for them.

Well, I guess that settles it. Where were you 60 posts ago?

[nmainguy]

I remember seeing the statue a while back on Fox cable news. It shows that the majority of Iraq's people appriaciate what America did for them.

Actually, it showed one sculptor's appreciation for the cash. I really don't see how you can gleam any more than that out of a commisioned sculpture.

Oh Wait!!!!! You mentioned FOX...now I get where you're coming from.