Janitorial Protesters in Houston

[ricco67]

I've been in downtown quite a bit over the past few days...

I've been noticing a large group of people, this is the only article that I've seen cover the protest.

Quite frankly, I think they deserve more money to be able to have a livable wage.

[Guest danax]

I've been in downtown quite a bit over the past few days...

I've been noticing a large group of people, this is the only article that I've seen cover the protest.

Quite frankly, I think they deserve more money to be able to have a livable wage.

When you've got illegals willing to work for the minimum, wages aren't going to rise. Then again, maybe a lot of these union workers are here illegally.

Maybe someone should find that out first before they negotiate for more money.

[ricco67]

When you've got illegals willing to work for the minimum, wages aren't going to rise. Then again, maybe a lot of these union workers are here illegally.

Maybe someone should find that out first before they negotiate for more money.

sorry, danax; but that was pitiful.

that's like asking everyone in your field if they're legal before getting a raise. this isn't an immigration issue, this is having the opportunity to have a living wage.

[MidtownCoog]

They are really mad at Hines.

Hines in NY and Chicago offer full time positions with benefits and pays $11.00/hr.

In Houston it's all part-time and minimum wage.

[Guest danax]

sorry, danax; but that was pitiful.

that's like asking everyone in your field if they're legal before getting a raise. this isn't an immigration issue, this is having the opportunity to have a living wage.

They should check everyone before they even get a job if they're legal. Illegal aliens have no right to any wage in the US, living or not, period.

I think it is an immigration issue because the illegals have undercut the wages of the union workers in the contruction and janitorial fields.

What's pitiful and ironic to me are that a lot of the same groups who historically have stood up for unions and now standing up for the illegals who break Federal law. Can't have it both ways.

[ricco67]

They should check everyone before they even get a job if they're legal. Illegal aliens have no right to any wage in the US, living or not, period.

I think it is an immigration issue because the illegals have undercut the wages of the union workers in the contruction and janitorial fields.

What's pitiful and ironic to me are that a lot of the same groups who historically have stood up for unions and now standing up for the illegals who break Federal law. Can't have it both ways.

you stated that it IS an immigration issue.

so you're against these people, who are just working to feed thier families, a living wage because they MIGHT be illegal? Regardless of the fact that its proven or not?

[Guest danax]

you stated that it IS an immigration issue.

so you're against these people, who are just working to feed thier families, a living wage because they MIGHT be illegal? Regardless of the fact that its proven or not?

The illegals are the reason that the wage floor is so low.

Yes, it is an immigration issue and no, I'm not against them, just against them being here illegally.

There shouldn't be any MIGHT in whether anyone's working illegally or not. That should be determined first, then talk wages.

The unions know the illegals are to blame but have taken the pragmatic, not the patriotic approach; they're organizing illegals to get the wage floor back up.

Someone needs to put the blame where it really is. If Americans are ok with this, then open the borders and let EVERYONE come over. America has become Latin America's punk, why not just roll over for the entire planet, since they only want to feed their families?

[MidtownCoog]

The illegals are the reason that the wage floor is so low.

Then why does Hines pay more in other cities?

[musicman]

In houston there are ALWAYS people willing to work for the minimum wage. Just go to the parking lot at home depot. Many were so poor in their home countries that minimum wage is a lot to them.

[TheNiche]

Quite frankly, I think they deserve more money to be able to have a livable wage.

The concept of a "living wage" in the first world is entirely warped as it implies that anything less is a non-living wage (i.e. a dying wage). The current minimum wage is well above subsistence levels. Moreover, the market rate for no-skill positions is very well above subsistence levels...after all, it wouldn't do a company any good to hire a starving man that's going to die within a couple weeks.

Now I'm not saying that the present minimum wage is a "comfortable wage", but why on earth should there be any guarantee to comfort? If people want comfort, they shouldn't drop out of school (provided for free to everybody who wants it), and if you're an unskilled immigrant who wants a comfortable life, learn English and get a GED...but then again, the immigrant probably has a greater appreciation for what little they've got and may already consider themselves comfortable enough.

[RedScare]

Yes, it is an immigration issue and no, I'm not against them, just against them being here illegally.

There shouldn't be any MIGHT in whether anyone's working illegally or not. That should be determined first, then talk wages.

Someone needs to put the blame where it really is. If Americans are ok with this, then open the borders and let EVERYONE come over. America has become Latin America's punk, why not just roll over for the entire planet, since they only want to feed their families?

Yes, let's put the blame where it really is. FEDERAL LAW, which you are so quick to quote, requires that all employers verify that the worker is legal PRIOR to hiring them. So, since American employers never violate federal law, we can assume that the protesting janitors are all legal. The demand for a decent wage is obviously being made by LEGAL workers, since American companies would not hire illegals, right? And, on the off chance that the employer did not verify status, you wouldn't be sticking up for one lawbreaker over another, would you?

As for Niche's argument that we should stiff these workers because we can, well, that is exactly why these workers should unionize and strike...to bring a little fairness to the table.

[TJones]

Yes, let's put the blame where it really is. FEDERAL LAW, which you are so quick to quote, requires that all employers verify that the worker is legal PRIOR to hiring them. So, since American employers never violate federal law, we can assume that the protesting janitors are all legal. The demand for a decent wage is obviously being made by LEGAL workers, since American companies would not hire illegals, right? And, on the off chance that the employer did not verify status, you wouldn't be sticking up for one lawbreaker over another, would you?

As for Niche's argument that we should stiff these workers because we can, well, that is exactly why these workers should unionize and strike...to bring a little fairness to the table.

Why not unionize the lawyers also ? All lawyers get paid the same, no matter what education they recieved, or how well they do their jobs. Straight pay, across the board. Unions are a cancer to the fabric of a Capitalist society. Unionizing might be better recognized by it's other name, Socialism. It is why GM and Ford are about to close there doors, UNIONS.

My line of work is like that, everyone gets paid the same, but it is all commision, there is no union, and it is up to ME whether I feast or famon, maybe start paying garbagemen by how many cans they lift in a day ?

[musicman]

My line of work is like that, everyone gets paid the same, but it is all commision, there is no union, and it is up to ME whether I feast or famon, maybe start paying garbagemen by how many cans they lift in a day ?

remember the PC term is sanitation engineer and they dont lift cans anymore. it's all automatic now.

[TheNiche]

As for Niche's argument that we should stiff these workers because we can, well, that is exactly why these workers should unionize and strike...to bring a little fairness to the table.

Unions are just labor cartels. They damage society no more than does OPEC or any other cartel of businesses conspiring to artificially raise the prices of their goods/services to monopolistic levels. In efficient global capital markets, as exist in the present day, the result of unions in a given country is that investments that might've been made in that country are instead made in non-unionized countries where the cost of doing business is lower.

And the net result is that those few people that work in a unionized industry are made well-off, but that those industries will no longer expand their employment base domestically, meaning that anybody not employed in a union job is 1) less likely to be employed at all, and 2) even if you are employed in a non-union job, there is more competition for that job as a result of conclusion #1, so your wages are likely lower. The problem is particularly pronounced in countries with positive population growth, like the U.S., for instance. And I suppose that's your version of "fair", Red?

[RedScare]

It is why GM and Ford are about to close there doors, UNIONS.

Umm, GM and Ford are about to close because their non-union management designs and produces crap, cannot read the markets, intentionally installs poorly designed parts, so that they can make money on replacements, and relies on patriotic advertising reminiscent of the Soviet Union to shame consumers into buying inferior 'American Made' products.

If lawyers felt the need to unionize, I am quite sure they would do so. The same applies to service employees. However, the service employees have been so thoroughly propagandized by the corporate elites that they repeat the mantra of their bosses/oppressors without even giving thought to whether the mantra they repeat is actually good for them. In fact, it is not. American wages are not rising with profits, health insurance and retirement is being dropped, vacations are shunned as laziness, and hours increase, though the worker is paid salary.

Even Niche is bitten. A close inspection of his post reveals no actual facts, merely rhetoric (comparisons to OPEC). He also blindly assumes that 'efficient global capital markets' are so wonderful that only a moron (or a socialist) would question what is in it for the worker, as opposed to the owner. The fact is, the United States is a socialist country, along with Canada, Great Britain, Germany and France. But, there are powerful forces trying to undo all of the social programs, such as Medicare and Social Security. The dismantling of unions is just another way that the extremely wealthy are eradicating the middle class. And, with the help of non-wealthy who THINK they will one day be wealthy, they are succeeding.

[sevfiv]

"The union is asking for pay increases to $8.50 an hour"

so then, what is the current average pay?

oh well, this is a place where we can't even get a fair minumum wage set

[TheNiche]

If lawyers felt the need to unionize, I am quite sure they would do so.

They have no need to, of course, because there are barriers to entry to their labor pool.

American wages are not rising with profits, health insurance and retirement is being dropped, vacations are shunned as laziness, and hours increase, though the worker is paid salary.

Although many of your assertions are factual, you fail to provide an analysis that would lead to why these patterns are occurring. Without that analysis, appropriate policy action cannot be taken.

Even Niche is bitten. A close inspection of his post reveals no actual facts, merely rhetoric (comparisons to OPEC). He also blindly assumes that 'efficient global capital markets' are so wonderful that only a moron (or a socialist) would question what is in it for the worker, as opposed to the owner. The fact is, the United States is a socialist country, along with Canada, Great Britain, Germany and France. But, there are powerful forces trying to undo all of the social programs, such as Medicare and Social Security. The dismantling of unions is just another way that the extremely wealthy are eradicating the middle class. And, with the help of non-wealthy who THINK they will one day be wealthy, they are succeeding.

Somebody's been watching too much Lou Dobbs.

In fact, your rhetoric is really much more noxious than mine.

OPEC is a good example of a cartel because it is well-recognized as such and is highly influential; that is why I cited it. Domestic cartels usually occur at much smaller scales and either go under the radar or are quickly brought to a grinding halt by antitrust regulation. Labor cartels function in exactly the same way and are frought with the very same perils as are cartels (at least, when each exists in its 'natural' unregulated state).

I didn't say that efficient global capital markets are wonderful (and that I think that they are is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand), and that you would seem to deny that they exist or that union actions fail to interact with them doesn't reflect well on your intellect...of course, as much crap as you threw out there that has absolutely no bearing on what I'd said, it could just be a red herring to try and get me off topic. Nice try.

Next time you want to argue, bring some substance...otherwise, don't waste your time.

[wendyps]

"The union is asking for pay increases to $8.50 an hour"

so then, what is the current average pay?

oh well, this is a place where we can't even get a fair minumum wage set

The flyers they are passing out downtown say it is $5.15 an hour. or $20 for a nights work.

[TJones]

Red, poorly designed parts ? How much money do you think the big 3 makes off of Warranty work ? How long are they supposed to "insure" a man-made device ? For as long as you own the car ? Get real. The non-union mgmt. has kept the companies afloat all these years INSPITE of the poor labor practices and shoddy workmanship of the UAW who puts these parts together, that ultimately break. It all depends on how you treat your car. I don't care which name brand you go with, they are all built the same.

[TheNiche]

I don't care which name brand you go with, they are all built the same.

I've got to disagree with you on this one. Honda and Toyota build them here in the states (using non-unionized labor) and do a remarkably good job with quality control.

[sevfiv]

hype, or??

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/kho...s.77da1af9.html

Hererra said that before she could board a bus for the downtown protest, her supervisor attacked one of the women organizing the protest, Jesenia Reyes, union organizer.

[TheNiche]

The flyers they are passing out downtown say it is $5.15 an hour. or $20 for a nights work.

If they don't like it, they could steal $3.35 worth of company supplies per hour. Same thing as unionizing, really.

Kind of funny how there are social mores against stealing something without telling anybody, but if you and a throng of other people get together and decide to steal stuff, the owner basically has to sit there while he's openly ransacked by the mob. And that is permissible.

Hey Red, I've got a question that you might be able to answer. Is it legal to screen job applicants on the basis of their having belonged to a union at any point in the past? You know, just the same as screening for someone with a criminal record?

[TJones]

I've got to disagree with you on this one. Honda and Toyota build them here in the states (using non-unionized labor) and do a remarkably good job with quality control.

1million car recall for Toyota. I like the cars don't get me wrong. This is the article I wanted Red to read to see where GM and Ford's money is going. Red, you said there is no wage increase with profits, I am assuming you weren't including the Auto industry. Tell me if you heard about this story below.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-351179.htm

[RedScare]

Red, poorly designed parts ? How much money do you think the big 3 makes off of Warranty work ? How long are they supposed to "insure" a man-made device ? For as long as you own the car ? Get real. The non-union mgmt. has kept the companies afloat all these years INSPITE of the poor labor practices and shoddy workmanship of the UAW who puts these parts together, that ultimately break. It all depends on how you treat your car. I don't care which name brand you go with, they are all built the same.

Knock yourself out, dude. I'll keep driving my Toyota. I understand that you sell American cars, but my brother fixes them. I'll listen to the mechanic.

Next time you want to argue, bring some substance...otherwise, don't waste your time.

Niche. That was MY point.

[TheNiche]

1million car recall for Toyota.

Recalls are typically a design issue. But what I meant by quality control is that Toyota and Honda tend to produce a more consistent product than do the Big Three American automakers...that's mostly attributable to the quality of their (non-unionized) staff and the technology available at their production facilities.

[TJones]

Knock yourself out, dude. I'll keep driving my Toyota. I understand that you sell American cars, but my brother fixes them. I'll listen to the mechanic.

Niche. That was MY point.

No, I work for the second best selling car company in Japan. They are made here with the same 1mm tolerances as your Toy though. Like Toy, some are built here in the states also. Call me when you are still able to drive a 35 year old Toyota Tundra, and I still have my Olds, it'll be 60 something by then.

Recalls are typically a design issue. But what I meant by quality control is that Toyota and Honda tend to produce a more consistent product than do the Big Three American automakers...that's mostly attributable to the quality of their (non-unionized) staff and the technology available at their production facilities.

Niche, Toy has been resting on their laurels, and it has shown in the past 3 years or so. They are starting a trend like the Big 3 where they are relying on SUV and truck sales to get them through. They have been laxed in their old bread and butter with the Corollas and the Camrys, and it is showing. I get to drive them all side by side at the same time when they come out so I can contrast and compare.

Edited October 26, 2006 by TJones

[TheNiche]

Niche. That was MY point.

I really don't have time to give you a complete introductory microeconomics lesson. Read these; they are OK sources that you'll be able to apply pretty directly to the topic, but I'd still highly recommend that you pick up a used microeconomics textbook and take a look at the fundamentals of firm and capital market behaviors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_economi..._labour_markets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions#Criticism

Niche, Toy has been resting on their laurels, and it has shown in the past 3 years or so. They are starting a trend like the Big 3 where they are relying on SUV and truck sales to get them through. They have been laxed in their old bread and butter with the Corollas and the Camrys, and it is showing.

I'd actually agree with you on this, but it still makes for a good example from the production standpoint (if not design).

[TJones]

I wanted to get back to the Janitor issue though. $5.15 where others make $11. My question would be to go look at the cost of living in the other cities mentioned and then see if it is indeed fair or not. That should clear up the whole issue.

[RedScare]

1million car recall for Toyota. I like the cars don't get me wrong. This is the article I wanted Red to read to see where GM and Ford's money is going. Red, you said there is no wage increase with profits, I am assuming you weren't including the Auto industry. Tell me if you heard about this story below.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-351179.htm

I am well aware of that article. The fact that you ignore is that the Big 3 willingly agreed to that deal when they were flush with cash. No one put a gun to their head. The suggestion that US corporations, especially the largest ones, are somehow at a disadvantage to a factory worker with a high school diploma is comical.

There are extremes on both sides. Paying workers not to work is one extreme. Paying workers $5.15 an hour, with no insurance and part time hours is another. To suggest that all unions are bad is just as ridiculous as saying all corporations are good. Outlawing unions simply because management fails to negotiate well is silly. A company that cannot negotiate should fail. In actuality, there are numerous examples of unions making concessions to enable the company to succeed. For some reason though, only the companies' crying over their bad negotiations gets the publicity.

[MidtownCoog]

I wanted to get back to the Janitor issue though. $5.15 where others make $11.

Equal pay for equal work.

But it's more than that. The Houston jobs are part time. The other cities full time with benefits.

Kinda like what Metro is trying to do. They are only hiring new part time drivers and eliminating full time jobs with benefits.

I side with the unions. Metro and Hines know exactly what they are doing.