Downtown Dallas

[texastrill]

Dallas Is just in a transitional phase......Sometimes it may seem busy sometimes it may seem dead.in about 1 year it will be an entirely different place, so all of the people who enjoy saying that downtown Dallas is dead had better get it all out now because soon that statement won't be valid.

You got that right!All the talking down on FW and DTFW wont get DTDallas anywhere.Dallas always solved its own problems when it comes to its identity.How many tall buildings there are doesnt say how cool a city is.Or how long it takes to walk around a DT.Dallas is Dallas,FW is FW,and Houston is Houston.Each of those cities have had their ups and downs.Recently its been FW's time to shine.DTD will come around again.

[The Great Hizzy!]

LOL, are you saying that they need some street lights??

Heh. Yes, I am. Actually, newer streetlights, as some of those in place now (and I've also noticed this myself on a few visits) have outlasted their useful life.

[houstonfella]

I wanted to go see a movie after dinner in Dallas (walking distance of course). That didn't happen. Did find a decent restaurant, but West End is history. I did not mean to disrespect Dallas' downtown, but the truth is there isn't much going on (yet). In Houston you can play pool at Slick Willie's, go to jazz clubs, enjoy the music at Sambuca and get drunk at Cabo's. Plus see a movie at Angelika. It is easier on the business traveler to have something to do (like walk over to Minute Maid Park or Toyota Center) without hassling with getting a cab. But ya do what ya gotta do. By the way, our firm moved into Fountain Place. A beautiful building and a nice restaurant in downtown Dallas (our Dallas office that is). No flame war intended here. Thanks.

[TheNiche]

The simple and not very satisfying answer is to wait. The current club scene is aimed at a fairly specific demographic. As such, Downtown has been typecast. New construction (HP, the park, Finger apartments) will draw a much broader demographic, making Downtown appeal to a wider audience.

The point is that government cannot make the right mix. The people dictate what works. Investors open what they think will work, and the public votes with their feet. In a year or so, Houston DT will see an upswing, as people try out the new offerings. Whether they stay depends on what is on the menu.

Very insightful, Red. Excellent post.

[dalparadise]

The simple and not very satisfying answer is to wait. The current club scene is aimed at a fairly specific demographic. As such, Downtown has been typecast. New construction (HP, the park, Finger apartments) will draw a much broader demographic, making Downtown appeal to a wider audience.

Another reason, I say wait, is that virtually all of the well known clubs are getting long in the tooth. Mercury has been around for about 8 years, ancient for a niteclub. The others have been around 5 to 6 years. Plus, those clubs started the trend. Like Deep Ellum, it was fun when it was new and edgy. Then, it matured and slowed down. The original club goers no longer thought it was hip, as the BMWs descended on it. Downtown is maturing, making the clubs more tame. The next generation will naturally not be as edgy, as the clubs move to a new scene, perhaps old Chinatown. Again, this is not necessarily bad, merely different.

This relates to Downtown Dallas, as well. As Dallas DT struggles to emerge from a several decade slump, it faces the same issues Houston DT did in 1998. Several ventures will try and fail before the proper mix is attained. It will takes years, just as Houston DT is taking years to reverse decades of neglect, and attain the right mix.

The point is that government cannot make the right mix. The people dictate what works. Investors open what they think will work, and the public votes with their feet. In a year or so, Houston DT will see an upswing, as people try out the new offerings. Whether they stay depends on what is on the menu. The same thing applies to Dallas, though recent reports of violence suggests that the City still needs to do some housecleaning.

Well, we've been waiting since 1998 -- the first year a smattering of new businesses opened on Main. Back then, the word was to wait while these clubs, bars and restaurants built the interest in the area and the train came. That worked, but the bars and clubs were supposed to maintain interest in Downtown long enough to build a solid residential base. That's beginning to worry me nine years into this experiment.

I agree that we have made amazing progress in revitalizing Downtown, overall. The past 18 months, or so have been very quiet, though, at least on any tangible front. There has been a lot of talk but no real dirt moving.

Building rehabs on Main sit vacant. Commerce Towers, Hermann Lofts, Capitol Lofts, etc. aren't selling. Shamrock fell through, but the trailer sill sits there with weeds growing half-way up its side. Can you imagine something like that in the heart of any other major city? There is a parking garage being built on Main St., in what should be the busiest pedestrian zone in the city. It all just gets a little frustrating.

You say to wait and I am willing to do so. I hope Houston can stay enthusiastic about Downtown's revitalization and continue to find ways to keep it going, though. Is waiting enough? Will it take care of itself? The investors -- at least the small business owners -- seem to be slowly giving up. They are not being replaced by retail, grocery stores, restaurants, homes and residents. not at a satisfactory rate, anyway.

As for Houston Pavilions, I really do hope to see a shovel turn on that project soon. My limited knowledge of how retail centers work tells me Downtown is a real gamble for a place like this, though. Retailers look at residential base before moving into an area. Downtown looks about like Alvin, Tx. on paper, in this regard.

It's going to take some major sack to hang hundreds of millions on a "build it and they will come" gamble. But without a reliable tourism base and what I believe to be a piss-poor effort to draw major recurring convention business here, the only population you can count on are the locals. They are, as you say, voting with their feet and beginning to stay away from Downtown.

If I had a couple hundred million to spend, I'd look Uptown or in The Village first. That's where the people are.

[musicman]

Heh. Yes, I am. Actually, newer streetlights, as some of those in place now (and I've also noticed this myself on a few visits) have outlasted their useful life.

LOL i thought you weren't PC. LOL

[tierwestah]

i agree with both redscare and dalparadise views. But my frustration with Houston lately has me leaning toward agreeing with dalparadise viewpoints more. Very frustrating when you take a drive down through Midtown and still see boarded-up and blighted buildings. I've been gone from Houston for almost a year now. The only thing i see that downtown has done was add a starbucks downtown. I really do believe its going to be a matter of patience to see any change in both Dallas and Houston's downtowns.

Personally, i don't think that Houston can call Dallas's downtown dead anymore than Dallas say that about our downtown. San Antonio is hands down, the best downtown out of any Texas City. Fort Worth's is cool, Austin's is good too (just a little over-rated.) Houston's downtown is slowly getting there, but like Dal said, the momentum seems to have slowed down in Houston. Maybe when they hurry up and start construction of those many projects that were promised to downtown, i'll change my viewpoint.

[RedScare]

Building rehabs on Main sit vacant.

Have you checked out rents on Main Street lately? Through the roof. I know personally two different investors wanting to open establishments on Main, who cannot get even an expensive lease. They all want ridiculously expensive rates. It happens every time. Renovate an area, and the first few people get a decent lease. Once it appears successful, the landlord wants to gouge everyone else. Then everyone stop leasing and the area slows. The landlords do not figure it out until they see a bunch of empty space. Concessions are made, and the place fills up again.

That's the nature of the beast. It cycles. That's also why you see fewer small businesses. They can't afford it. However, if the bigger businesses take up Main, the smaller guys will go in off Main. It still works out. But, for us customers, we just have to wait.

[dalparadise]

Have you checked out rents on Main Street lately? Through the roof. I know personally two different investors wanting to open establishments on Main, who cannot get even an expensive lease. They all want ridiculously expensive rates. It happens every time. Renovate an area, and the first few people get a decent lease. Once it appears successful, the landlord wants to gouge everyone else. Then everyone stop leasing and the area slows. The landlords do not figure it out until they see a bunch of empty space. Concessions are made, and the place fills up again.

That's the nature of the beast. It cycles. That's also why you see fewer small businesses. They can't afford it. However, if the bigger businesses take up Main, the smaller guys will go in off Main. It still works out. But, for us customers, we just have to wait.

Good point -- I think that's exactly the case in Midtown, where property owners have been speculating for about 30 years that the area was about to boom. All the old buildings were cleared and vacant weeded lots sat waiting for someone to build, while prices kept climbing. It's been hard to get a whole lot of traction here, too, for that reason.

Regarding your points about Downtown's cyclical nature -- at what point does it stabilize to the point that the residents get a firm footing in the area? I think Downtown needs another 20,000-30,000 residents to be a viable urban neighborhood that can support the retail and service businesses it needs to be fully functioning.

[houstonfella]

i agree with both redscare and dalparadise views. But my frustration with Houston lately has me leaning toward agreeing with dalparadise viewpoints more. Very frustrating when you take a drive down through Midtown and still see boarded-up and blighted buildings. I've been gone from Houston for almost a year now. The only thing i see that downtown has done was add a starbucks downtown. I really do believe its going to be a matter of patience to see any change in both Dallas and Houston's downtowns.

Personally, i don't think that Houston can call Dallas's downtown dead anymore than Dallas say that about our downtown. San Antonio is hands down, the best downtown out of any Texas City. Fort Worth's is cool, Austin's is good too (just a little over-rated.) Houston's downtown is slowly getting there, but like Dal said, the momentum seems to have slowed down in Houston. Maybe when they hurry up and start construction of those many projects that were promised to downtown, i'll change my viewpoint.

Go stay at a downtown Dallas hotel and then come back and say that. At least we have two pro stadiums, the largest theater district in Texas and most states and movie theaters downtown.

[KinkaidAlum]

In 2004, I came to Houston to check out buying a place downtown to move into. After 8 years in Boston, I wanted to stay someplace where I could walk to places I needed to get to instead of hopping in the car for everything.

After one weekend at the Hotel Icon, I quickly took downtown off of my list.

Why?

Because of the clubs and lack of anything else.

I think the death of the night club scene and the birth of the Houston Pavilions and new park will be the BEST thing for residential growth in downtown. I am 36 years old. I have ZERO desire to hang out at a club more than twice a year. I have less desire to be awoken at 3 a.m. to listen to 19-25 year olds bitching about their friends while standing around TEN FLOORS BELOW but sounding like they were in my bed! It was nuts.

During the day, especially on the weekend, most of the places I would want to go to were closed (Mission Burritos, Cafe Express) and there wasn't a grocery store or decent market anywhere. I had a tourist ask me where to go to buy film. I couldn't think of a single place outside of a hotel lobby (this was pre CVS). That does not make a good residential hood.

Now, give me some good restaurants, some local bars, a great new park where I could walk my dog, and 3 blocks of retail, and I'd be happy. These things are coming...

[tamtagon]

I think the primary root cause for the dead downtown dilemma among visitors and metro area residents of both Houston and Dallas is the lack of precedence to guage expectations for these evolving Sunbelt Central Business Districts.

[Houston19514]

I think the primary root cause for the dead downtown dilemma among visitors and metro area residents of both Houston and Dallas is the lack of precedence to guage expectations for these evolving Sunbelt Central Business Districts.

So your answer is to lower peoples' expectations so they won't be disappointed? That would be an interesting chamber of commerce promotion.

[troyboy]

So your answer is to lower peoples' expectations so they won't be disappointed? That would be an interesting chamber of commerce promotion.

I think what he is saying is because the idea of a residential and entertainment filled, 24-hour, urban downtown is still new to the sunbelt reigon, people don't really know what to expect. It can be difficult to gauge the success of a new idea. Sure you can compare Houston to Chicago, but is that really a valid comparison? Chicago has always been more densely populated thus more uban than Houston or Dallas..urban living is not a new idea there. Because urbanism is newer in this region, which city has set the precedence for downtown Texas.

[tamtagon]

So your answer is to lower peoples' expectations so they won't be disappointed? That would be an interesting chamber of commerce promotion.

Pretty much what troyboy said. A chamber of commerce dynamic promotion outlining where things are could realign expectations. Fifty years ago, a trip to the central business district in Houston or Dallas was reliable to fill just about any expectation of city experience. That reality is no longer true, but the expectation is still common.

[Dallasboi]

I think what he is saying is because the idea of a residential and entertainment filled, 24-hour, urban downtown is still new to the sunbelt reigon, people don't really know what to expect. It can be difficult to gauge the success of a new idea. Sure you can compare Houston to Chicago, but is that really a valid comparison? Chicago has always been more densely populated thus more uban than Houston or Dallas..urban living is not a new idea there. Because urbanism is newer in this region, which city has set the precedence for downtown Texas.

Well said Troy...I agree