Israel

[nmainguy]

And Muslims hate the US. Go figure!

I think maybe we should pull out of the Middle East. I think we need to leave, put up a rope all around the area, then let them fight it out, winner take all. Then the US can take on the winner!

...and if we could ween ourselves from their oil, we wouldn't have a reason to take them on. Just let them duke it out and leave us out of it. Israel, UAR, Iraq-the whole pack.

[TJones]

...and if we could ween ourselves from their oil, we wouldn't have a reason to take them on. Just let them duke it out and leave us out of it. Israel, UAR, Iraq-the whole pack.

We don't have to ween, just start more drilling in Alaska and The Gulf.

[west20th]

We don't have to ween, just start more drilling in Alaska and The Gulf.

A temporary fix at best. We need to seriously develop alternatives and not just pay lip service to curing our "addiction to oil". Finding new sources of oil will only ensure alternatives won't be developed.

PS, before you jump to the conclusion that barricades to drilling off-shore is solely the fault of Democratic, liberal, patchouli sniffing tree huggers keep in mind GOP Governors Swartsen......errrrr....Arnold and Bush are roadblocks to offshore drilling off their states.

[TJones]

A temporary fix at best. We need to seriously develop alternatives and not just pay lip service to curing our "addiction to oil". Finding new sources of oil will only ensure alternatives won't be developed.

PS, before you jump to the conclusion that barricades to drilling off-shore is solely the fault of Democratic, liberal, patchouli sniffing tree huggers keep in mind GOP Governors Swartsen......errrrr....Arnold and Bush are roadblocks to offshore drilling off their states.

Quit ASSUMING west. No political affiliation was stated nor implied................ for a change.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I want to know why the Israelis call ahead and let the Palestinians that are targeted, know they are coming and give them a chance to get out before the buildings are destroyed? Doesnt sound like a good military strategy to me, especially for a tiny country that has been demonized time and time again.

As for "giving something back" to the USA, most Americans dont have a clue on that one........

The military and intelligence as well as strategic contributions are staggering.

[Scharpe St Guy]

Ok NMM,

Honestly you must have your head inside of a bag to be so naive. In your mind shangra-la exists or by god should exist if only we would talk, get taxed more, and let the government decide our daily lives.

The PLO and Hamas can not be compared to a democratically elected party in any sort or fashion. This would be comparable to us (citizens) here in the USA electing the Neo-Nazis, KKK, Crips, or the Bloods. These organizations are not interested in you unless your Jewish or Black or you have something they want. Killing, taunting, raping is not past them and yet you compare the PLO and Hamas to elected parties such as the Republicans or Democrats or Independents? You have to be kidding me.

The PLO and Hamas share the goal of driving the nation of Israel out or better yet just killing them, that is there stated goal, they do not recognize Israel as a nation. Israel on the other hand is a democracy surrounded by regimes headed by ruthless individuals who won't step down unless they are killed.

Are you kidding me about the disproportionate force that Israel is using against Lebanon and the Gaza Strip? You don't go into a fight with an arm and legs tied up to make it a fair fight. You go in with intelligence on your adversary and every weapon at your disposal. In your view of things we should be replacing our armored Humvee's and Tanks in Iraq with some imported rickshaws from China so that the avg terrorist in Iraq has a 50/50 chance.

A quick suggestion, if you don't like how things are then go express yourself and head over to Syria and stand with the "Political Parties" over there such as the "PLO" and "Hamas" and pick up a few rocks while your at it and make your views known. Shoot I would even be willing to pitch in for your one way ticket over there.

God Bless you with Common Sense my Friend,

Scharpe St Guy

[TJones]

I want to know why the Israelis call ahead and let the Palestinians that are targeted, know they are coming and give them a chance to get out before the buildings are destroyed? Doesnt sound like a good military strategy to me, especially for a tiny country that has been demonized time and time again.

As for "giving something back" to the USA, most Americans dont have a clue on that one........

The military and intelligence as well as strategic contributions are staggering.

Moonman, you also forgot that they somewhat stabilize a balance of power in the Middleeast, they are willing to stand up to those who would mean them harm, which is literally every ARAB nation surrounding them. They don't condone suicide bombing and they are for Democracy and freedom for all, which is what The USA is all about. If the Palestinians could get on board with that program, all the violence would cease.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Moonman, you also forgot that they somewhat stabilize a balance of power in the Middleeast, they are willing to stand up to those who would mean them harm, which is literally every ARAB nation surrounding them. They don't condone suicide bombing and they are for Democracy and freedom for all, which is what The USA is all about. If the Palestinians could get on board with that program, all the violence would cease.

And add to that the military contributions they make to the USA. Some of those fancy smart bombs we have are loaded with components built and designed in Israel. Israel has the rep. as being the silicon valley of the mid east. With the current rush on missle defense for the USA, now is not the time to turn our backs on the Israelis.

[TJones]

And add to that the military contributions they make to the USA. Some of those fancy smart bombs we have are loaded with components built and designed in Israel. Israel has the rep. as being the silicon valley of the mid east. With the current rush on missle defense for the USA, now is not the time to turn our backs on the Israelis.

Absolutely, and don't forget the Desert Eagle .357, .44 and .50. Need a hole made in something, call on an Israeli. >

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Unbelievable. More nonsensical diatribe from the person that thinks Iran is pursueing nuclear technologies because they are afraid of running out of oil. Makes me wonder if there has been an early release program in affect from the various nut houses around the country............

[TJones]

Your the famously referred to "Ugly American" arent you? We need to meet up sometime. I want to take some pictures with you.

Boo Friggin' Hoo Nmm, Your P.O.S. PLO leaders swore that "if only Israel would get out of the Gaza Strip, there would finally be peace." What happened with that, Israel held up their end of the bargain, but your bunch of loser "brothers in arms", still couldn't get their crap together. Then for some reason your little jerky brothers decide to hop the wall at a checkpoint and kill soldiers and take some hostage in order to try and get some more of your dirtbag punk@$$ "suicide bomber fantasy league" chumps released from jail, and you started the whole conflict again. The best part was when you cried about how Israel's retaliation is so unfair because they have bigger and better guns. Here's a solution to that problem, don't start what you know you can't finish. I remember someone around here on this forum trying to be very "MATRIX" like quoting "Cause and Effect, for every action, there is a reaction." Who was that ? Is that ugly enough for you ?

Do you like apples ?

[TJones]

Edited July 15, 2006 by TJones

[ricco67]

While the whole situation, I think is just a distraction for something else happening in the world (in other words, EVERYONE is being played), I think it has brought out some funny moments.

check out this video and transcript.

When you hear the first shot, play the benny hill theme in your head.

[TJones]

[ricco67]

Nice cartoons. New low for you.

I think this thread has lost much of its purpose. Like i said, you dont know half of it. You take bits and pieces and make them a whole.

For example, the Palestinian Peace Plan did give Palestine its own nation state, but the borders were pre-determined by Israel. In effect, you had a nation that wasnt joined. You had, if you can imagine a group of "island" states within Israel. One man from the Institute of Public Accuracy put it this way: "the Palestinians got themselves some bedrooms, but Israel controlled the hallways". Anyone who has worked with Israel in the past knows to live in disjointed districts is not a good idea. Not only are you surrounded by the enemy, but you have no means of communications with your fellow countrymen without Israel standing in the middle.

So you enjoy your unsophisticated, biased, ill-construed ideas. And you post your polarized cartoons. And you keep to what i can only think as a safe haven you have created for yourself. I wish you all the best.

The lines have been drawn in the sand, and we all know where we each stand.

Looking at the map, you are quite correct, the problem is that the various wars in the past determined where the land holdings were. It's the initial conflicts are just as much to blame as Israel's and palestine's demand for said lands.

While the logic may totally defy us here, it make sense there.

Logic would dictate that the strip would be surrendered and add the same amount of land elsewhere. but they were adament about WANTING that strip of land. So there you go.

[TJones]

I guess my cartoons hit a little too close to home for you ? When you finally wake up and wash the Hamas and Hizbollah out of your brain, maybe your young mind will understand.

Nmm, You never answered my question about Palestine's request for Israel to leave the Gaza Strip and that there would be peace, if Israel did that. So, what happened to make Palestine go back on their word AGAIN !?

[HeightsGuy]

Yes i really mentioned PLO and HAMAS. Hamas being a democratically elected party. If it was democratically elected, it means that the people favored them in power. If the people voted them in, it means that they share the same ideals.

And as we all witness today how Israel destroyed Palestinian infrastructure for the sake of one "kidnapped" soldier [and it was reported that this soldier was "kidnapped" (with all the connotations attached) rather then captured] we may see why. Complete and unrestrained aggression is propelled by nothing other then equal aggression. Newton's Law: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. . . . . And Israel warns to free the armed soldier who was trained to kill Palestinans or the Prime Minister dies. Go figure. :closedeyes:

The Palestinians more then likely want a government with a strong backbone.

But i can see why Americans have a hard time understanding the plight of the Palestinans.

1. Judeao-Christian Heritage that blinds.

2. Americans themselves trace their lineage back to the first European Settlers that encroached on Native American lands. Back 200 years ago when it was populary believed God favored Manifest Destiny at the expense of the native settlers - i can see the American-Israeli parallels.

And HeightsGuy, i understand what your saying - but look at it in context. These terrorist groups "Hamas, Al Qaeda, Al Jihad, etc" never exised in the 1950s. You see them in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I wholeheartedly believe they are a reaction to their surroundings. Research the 1967 Israeli War and American opinions about it. It was a war based on the "Pre-emptive Strike policy". Understand that the people of the Levant realized if they dont create organized military groups, they were doomed to destruction and victims of land encroachment.

Also look into Israeli violations of the United Nations. Just search something very vague like "Israel violates United Nations".

Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".

Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".

Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".

Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".

Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".

Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".

Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".

Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".

Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".

Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".

Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".

Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.

Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".

Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.

Just some of the many. Look them up.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Look, im not saying Jews are 'bad'. Im saying your replacing one group of refugees with another. You gave the Jews Palestinian land and called it a day? And you dont expect the Palestinains to put together a crummy military organization to protect themselves?

Add one more to those Americans dead on the USS Liberty. http://www.rachelcorrie.org/news.htm

Hey nmm, that's a great point about Hamas being democratically elected. Question though, wasn't Hitler democratically elected? Not making any comparisons here other than to say just because someone is elected doesn't mean it was the right choice.

Also, aren't you the first to jump up and say how stupid Bush is, I mean, we did elect him....

So, let's get back to Hamas. I am not condoning Israel's actions, but for context I think it is important to read the Hamas Covenant:

Hamas Covenant 1988

There are more than a few lines in it that are important to the current crisis:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine (including modern-day Israel - Heightsguy edit) is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."

So, this is a democratically-elected group who charter says that Israel needs to be obliterated. Sorry, but that doesn't sit well with me, and I am pretty sure it doesn't sit well with most Israelis.

Another comparison to think about. We all know the horror we inflicted on Native Americans in the 19th century (and some would say continue to inflict). What do you think would happen if a group of Native Americans on an Arizona Reservation created a charter that said the US invaders must be obliterated. What if that group came to power on that reservation. What if that group then blew up a few buses killing dozens of people in Phoinex to get their point across regarding US oppression.

What do you think our reaction to that would be?

And if Native American is a bad example, go ahead and switch it out with Hawaii, Guam, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Wake, Midway, Samoa, or any of our other territories that we "took".

Edited July 17, 2006 by HeightsGuy

[nmainguy]

Hey nmm, that's a great point about Hamas being democratically elected. Question though, wasn't Hitler democratically elected? Not making any comparisons here other than to say just because someone is elected doesn't mean it was the right choice.

Actually Hitler never won an election. However his party did.

July 1932:

German president Hindenburg reluctantly runs for re-election, fearing Hitler's election if he does not. Hindenburg wins the election, but Hitler gets 37 percent of the vote, making the Nazi Party the largest party in the parliament.

January 1933:

President Hindenburg names Hitler chancellor of Germany.

Also, aren't you the first to jump up and say how stupid Bush is, I mean, we did elect him....

"We" didn't elect him in 2000. "We" elected Gore.

Gore: 50,999,897

Bush: 50,456,002

As far as Israel goes, we continue to fund them with 30% of our annual aid-the majority of which is spent on it's military. Why is beyond me but I agree, I wouldn't be too keen on having a neighbor who's avowed goal is to destroy me.

Edited July 17, 2006 by nmainguy

[TJones]

"We" didn't elect him in 2000. "We" elected Gore.

Gore: 50,999,897

Bush: 50,456,002

As far as Israel goes, we continue to fund them with 30% of our annual aid-the majority of which is spent on it's military. Why is beyond me but I agree, I wouldn't be too keen on having a neighbor who's avowed goal is to destroy me.

Hmmmm.... The Electoral College, which of course you know nmain is what is used to decide who is INDEED President, would seem to disagree.

Bush- 271

Gore- 267

So, if your party just would have moved some people from New York, to a couple of other states, it was those stupid little chads, they just ruined everything. But, the situation in Israel is not about Bush, so let's stay on target here.

[nmainguy]

Hmmmm.... The Electoral College, which of course you know nmain is what is used to decide who is INDEED President, would seem to disagree.

Bush- 271

Gore- 267

But, the situation in Israel is not about Bush, so let's stay on target here.

I think you know exactly what I mean. The poster said "we". Ultimately you are correct because "we" don't elect the president. However, in 2000, the voters-as in "we"- voted for Gore over Bush-something Republicans seem to be amnesic about.

Now, continue on with your war-of which no one has offered solutions to, except some of you guys who need a macho feel-good moment.

[TJones]

I think you know exactly what I mean. The poster said "we". Ultimately you are correct because "we" don't elect the president. However, in 2000, the voters-as in "we"- voted for Gore over Bush-something Republicans seem to be amnesic about.

Now, continue on with your war-of which no one has offered solutions to, except some of you guys who need a macho feel-good moment.

Yeah, you know I am just raggin' ya !

It would appear that Israel is our only true ally besides the U.K. in the "War on Terror." Israel is the U.S.'s PITBULL, and we have decided to let go of the leash. I will be the first to call it like it is.

You know how this works, Israel does not have to answer to anyone because THEY are not a "SUPERPOWER", they can rock n' roll with Iran, Lebanon, Syria, whoever they want, and they are willing to fight on all fronts. They are just as "fearless" when it comes to war as any of those who oppose them. Islam says they will remain until Islam conquers them, well, Islam has been called to the mat by the Jews in a winner take all Battle Royal, and we are gonna get "drug" into it. I say "drug written like this because we aren't really gonna get "drug" into anything, the U.S. needs to see just how committed and arms capable the enemy is, i.e. Nuclear capabilities, if any, and once evaluated, we will jump into the fray.

Reminds me of the last episode of Deadwood, where Dan met a much larger foe, and found a way to win. Even if things start to go bad for Israel with the Arab nations pulling together to fight what they call "the little satan." I believe Israel has the weapons and testicular fortitude to take on all comers.

Edited July 17, 2006 by TJones

[westguy]

There's over a billion Muslims. Most of them do not hate Jews. Therefore this isn't the religious war you've been hoping for.

Israel isn't a good ally because its costing us access to an oil supply this country cannot live without. Because, you know, there's that whole peace thing that is never going to happen.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

There's over a billion Muslims. Most of them do not hate Jews. Therefore this isn't the religious war you've been hoping for.

Israel isn't a good ally because its costing us access to an oil supply this country cannot live without. Because, you know, there's that whole peace thing that is never going to happen.

Too funny..........

[KinkaidAlum]

I used to have some sympathy towards the Palestine cause, but not any more.

This latest fight isn't about Palestine. It's about Iran and Syria testing the waters and it's about to get really ugly IMO because it seems the Sunni states aren't so unified behind the largely Shi'ite ones (Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan).

Edited July 18, 2006 by KinkaidAlum

[TJones]

There's over a billion Muslims. Most of them do not hate Jews. Therefore this isn't the religious war you've been hoping for.

Israel isn't a good ally because its costing us access to an oil supply this country cannot live without. Because, you know, there's that whole peace thing that is never going to happen.

I have to assume you are talking to me west, about me wanting a "religious war" ? I do not advocate a "CRUSADE" of any type, I have never even said anything to the like, that went out with The Inquisition. So, your post is way off target, I am NOT of the "religious right" as you would hope me to be, just because I am a heterosexual Republican, doesn't make me a bible thumper chief ! We have plenty of "OIL" in Iraq. This new ME conflict has nothing at all to do with oil, it is about being fed up, and doing something about it. Pres. said it best today, "We need to convince Syria to tell Hizbollah to knock this $#*t off !" Israel, will stop on a dime if we ask them, but Syria and Iran are helping the Palestinians launch missiles into Israel. Hizbollah started killing soldiers and taking them hostage. Israel is tired of this type of Guerilla crud, and have decided that enough is enough, if Palestine thinks they can wipe Israel off the planet, well, here's their chance.

Edited July 18, 2006 by TJones

[nmainguy]

This new ME conflict ...

That's your problem, TJ...it's always "ME ME ME!!!" Well sometimes it's not just about YOU! Sometimes it's about what's happening in the Middl...uhhhhhhhhh....[never mind]

[Heights2Bastrop]

I think it

[nmainguy]

I think it

[RedScare]

I think it

[TJones]

Touche.

Oops. That was French.

Might as well throw them into the mix also. I hear George is a little upset at the Swiss army too, he cut his hand with one of their knives.

Edited July 18, 2006 by TJones