Grand Parkway Association Sends Out A Mailer

[ENGcons]

Niche, I know you are just trolling on this topic. Obviously you have nothing at stake with this road going through, and it is obvious you do not know the area of Spring very well, or anything about road construction.

Soundwalls are not inexpensive, and do not work, the fact that you think they are inexpensive is laughable. I would know,I spent many years in the Heavy Highway construction business. They are nothing more than an attempt in place to appease a neighborhood. When after the fact the neighbors find out they have nothing more than a 15' concrete wall in their backyard to stare at to go along with the noise.

And if you think it is ok to lower the propertyvalue on home that has been there for years before the route of this road was even put in to place, create noise pollution, and be an overall menace to an area that has announced many times that it does not want this road just to give a fraction of the access to a freeway that is already easily accessable then you are nothing more than an ass. Many homes above your estimated price range will be DIRECTLY affected by this road, not that the cost of any home should be an issue on this. Moving this road north puts it in a more rural area so it would have the most minimal impact on decreasing residential property values, yet increase the potential commercial values of the property around it.

[TheNiche]

Niche, I know you are just trolling on this topic. Obviously you have nothing at stake with this road going through, and it is obvious you do not know the area of Spring very well, or anything about road construction.

Soundwalls are not inexpensive, and do not work, the fact that you think they are inexpensive is laughable. I would know,I spent many years in the Heavy Highway construction business. They are nothing more than an attempt in place to appease a neighborhood. When after the fact the neighbors find out they have nothing more than a 15' concrete wall in their backyard to stare at to go along with the noise.

And if you think it is ok to lower the propertyvalue on home that has been there for years before the route of this road was even put in to place, create noise pollution, and be an overall menace to an area that has announced many times that it does not want this road just to give a fraction of the access to a freeway that is already easily accessable then you are nothing more than an ass. Many homes above your estimated price range will be DIRECTLY affected by this road, not that the cost of any home should be an issue on this. Moving this road north puts it in a more rural area so it would have the most minimal impact on decreasing residential property values, yet increase the potential commercial values of the property around it.

And it seems obvious to me that you do have something at stake. I am attempting to remain impartial as a third-party observer.

Soundwalls are poured concrete that is tilted and anchored into place...if there's anything more to it, then yes, something is escaping me. And they're a hell of a lot less expensive an option than are trenches...even shallow ones. Just try to prove me wrong on that one. I'm not saying that they're the most effective noise mitigation option, but for the price compared to what trenching would cost...

And yes, in the case of transportation, schools, fire stations, dumps, ports, and airports (NIMBY items), I accept that they have to exist and that somebody's going to have to bite the bullet. It sucks...and in an ideal world, they'd be at least partially compensated for those impacts (see Pareto Efficiency)...but it rarely works that way.

There's more to roads than increasing or decreasing property values in the road's immediate viscinity. There's a general positive effect that is felt throughout a broad area by improving accessibility, even if specific areas suffer. Routing the parkway to those northerly reaches would either require that The Woodlands and subdivisions just east of I-45 be affected just the same way but in a configuration that discourages use by residents of Spring, or would require a circuituitous route, just like Beltway 8 at Jersey Village. It wastes peoples' time and puts more traffic on alternate routes within the neighborhoods if a road isn't sufficiently direct.

My thought processes are highly influenced by my formal economic training in cost/benefit analysis. I hate citing economic theory from Wikipedia because they frequently get the little nitpicky things wrong, but they're reasonably close to what I mean to communicate and should provide a general concept. Please see the following:

Welfare Economics

Pareto Efficiency

Kaldor-Hicks Efficiency

[mrfootball]

Ummm, there are some multi-million dollar homes in Gleannloch that would be affected...and a bunch of $400k homes as well...

Doesn't really matter what the value...they need to go ahead and put this thing on 2920. Is it too much to use some ____ing common sense?

[ENGcons]

Again I am the idiot for responding to Niche, and now that you claim to be an economist shows me you have no real world experience.

Sound walls are more than poured concrete. Actually they are 8" thick precast concrete panels about 15' tall and 10' wide containing a few tons of steel reinforcement placed on a concrete grade beam with anchor bolts, and supporrted by additional cast in place columns on each side of each panel. Since you are a self proclaimed economist I guess you would know what concrete is going for these days, and steel is going for these days, not to mention the high cost of these being precast pieces as is industry standard. Your looking around $5,000 per panel, not including the grade beam work, the columns for support and the labor to install.

This is not an economics debate genius, it is an enviromental one, and how this road will impact the residential communites that already exists. You want the economics of it here it is, existing residential property will decrease, potential commercial property value will increase. More tax dollars are generated through the commercial business than from the residential, so guess who wins there. Not to mention developers like the ones in Gleannloch Farms have already filled up the residential zones in their community, no w they could care less abou those folks they are goin go to do whatever it takes to in crease the value of their commercial zones, which is why they have DONATED land for the GP. and already made plans on future commercial development around it. It is now nothing more than a money grab for them. As far as economics is concerned in this case you should know that the need for the road does not balance with the expense for it. This road is not driven by need, it is driven by the allmighty dollar.

And yes I do have something at stake in this, the value of my home, which by your logic is irrelevnat becasue it not worth a half million and located in West Universty, or the Woodlands. Us poor people in Spring who only have $350,000 homes can take the hit I guess.

[westguy]

The sound walls won't be 15'. If HCTRA builds this, they will be about 8' like the ones they've been using on other roads. They don't seem to do much anyway. If this is cutting through residential subdivisions then I can only assume that runoff will go into the neighborhoods. It's against the law, but if no one speaks up, they can do whatever they want to do.

[CE_ugh]

Is Dan Patrick still against the Grand Parkway?

[pineda]

Is Dan Patrick still against the Grand Parkway?

YEP!

So is Debbie Riddle, Mike McCaul and Ted Poe.

[GovernorAggie]

This goes back to what I suggested on the last big Grand Parkway thread...I think that those in the north can figth the Grand Parkway, but I think that you can be multi-dimensional about it. Fight it, but simulatneously as part of negotiations, work with TxDOT/HCTRA in designing a facility that you want to be in your neighborhood. Offer alternatives other than new locations, because that also isn't totally fair. That's like praying for a hurricane not to hit your city but to go somewhere else--it's not cool. After all, you're the ones that have to deal with it daily, not those who travel on it.

I also suggest that you implore TxDOT/HCTRA to be open on their tolling policy. If they're so concerned about the costs of making the roadway actually worth something rather than the cheapest facility they can get away with, get them to increase the tolls on the facility--maybe even the entire system. Instead of 1.25, make it 1.50 or 1.75. That would easily pay for better design for future toll projects. It's time for the County to get out of the easy chair. That extra .50 toll could become nearly $200 million--extra--for better design of tollways and context-sensitive planning.

[TheNiche]

Again I am the idiot for responding to Niche, and now that you claim to be an economist shows me you have no real world experience.

Sound walls are more than poured concrete. Actually they are 8" thick precast concrete panels about 15' tall and 10' wide containing a few tons of steel reinforcement placed on a concrete grade beam with anchor bolts, and supporrted by additional cast in place columns on each side of each panel. Since you are a self proclaimed economist I guess you would know what concrete is going for these days, and steel is going for these days, not to mention the high cost of these being precast pieces as is industry standard. Your looking around $5,000 per panel, not including the grade beam work, the columns for support and the labor to install.

This is not an economics debate genius, it is an enviromental one, and how this road will impact the residential communites that already exists. You want the economics of it here it is, existing residential property will decrease, potential commercial property value will increase. More tax dollars are generated through the commercial business than from the residential, so guess who wins there. Not to mention developers like the ones in Gleannloch Farms have already filled up the residential zones in their community, no w they could care less abou those folks they are goin go to do whatever it takes to in crease the value of their commercial zones, which is why they have DONATED land for the GP. and already made plans on future commercial development around it. It is now nothing more than a money grab for them. As far as economics is concerned in this case you should know that the need for the road does not balance with the expense for it. This road is not driven by need, it is driven by the allmighty dollar.

And yes I do have something at stake in this, the value of my home, which by your logic is irrelevnat becasue it not worth a half million and located in West Universty, or the Woodlands. Us poor people in Spring who only have $350,000 homes can take the hit I guess.

Environmental economics is a field highly dependent upon theories of welfare economics, like those that I referred you to. Dollar values can be placed upon all forms of impacts, both beneficial and adverse. The only trick is to have an objective study done by a competent professional...both qualifications can be hard to come by unfortunately. If you read through my links and take the time to understand them, perhaps you'll have a better respect for my position.

A couple things to bear in mind: 1) a community with particular demographics will support a certain amount of commercial space regardless of the presence of a freeway...the only difference between the with/without freeway scenarios is the specific location of those businesses. But in most cases, you can rest assured that the taxing entities would be the same and that the freeway won't induce a great deal of business that wouldn't have been there in the first place. 2) In welfare economics, the amount taxed doesn't typically matter in scenarios like this particular one...what matters is that the social benefit was greater than the social cost. 3) It doesn't matter who 'grabs the money'. They'll spend or invest their profit eventually, benefitting the economy. 4) Need can be measured in dollars. 5) The value of your home is relevent...it probably just doesn't weigh as heavily as you'd personally prefer...a good cost/benefit guy would certainly factor in the depreciated home value into the model...but saving peoples' time is money in a society's pocket.

If and when the road gets built past you, the depreciation potential of your home will be used again to decide which mitigation option is most preferable...if it doesn't warrant the cost of a trench (and I doubt it), then don't expect one. Noise mitigation walls are far from ideal, but at least they're something.

Btw, the low cost of noise walls cannot be considered either "high" or "low" unless compared with alternative options. The next less expensive noise mitigation option is to not mitigate. The next most expensive option is to dig trenches...relative to the cost of digging trenches (and putting up retaining walls like on U.S. 59, as was suggested earlier in the thread) is relatively massive. You certainly cannot dispute that.

[PureAuteur]

I'd be supportive of a freeway around there if it were not just a section of a greater loop around the Houston area. The Grand Parkway is a horrible idea because it allows criminals from SW and south sides of Houston to commit crimes in nice areas and then easily escape from the law.

I agree that they need to build a small freeway (2 or 3 lane) between Spring and The Woodlands, but it needs to be only for those residents and not part of a loop around Houston proper. So, maybe residents could work out some kind of compromise where the Grand Parkway doesn't go through Spring, but they get a separate freeway instead that only runs between I-45 and 2978 or something like that. I see Magnolia becoming a boom area in the future also. This might work.

It may be, however, that no freeway ends up being constructed. If I know Spring people, they will find a way to stop it. This is not just some suburb in Houston. It's a very very strong community with people who like things to be serene and tranquil.

[CE_ugh]

I'd be supportive of a freeway around there if it were not just a section of a greater loop around the Houston area. The Grand Parkway is a horrible idea because it allows criminals from SW and south sides of Houston to commit crimes in nice areas and then easily escape from the law.

I agree that they need to build a small freeway (2 or 3 lane) between Spring and The Woodlands, but it needs to be only for those residents and not part of a loop around Houston proper. So, maybe residents could work out some kind of compromise where the Grand Parkway doesn't go through Spring, but they get a separate freeway instead that only runs between I-45 and 2978 or something like that. I see Magnolia becoming a boom area in the future also. This might work.

It may be, however, that no freeway ends up being constructed. If I know Spring people, they will find a way to stop it. This is not just some suburb in Houston. It's a very very strong community with people who like things to be serene and tranquil.

Every post you make is sweeping generalizations. Yes, there are ABSOLUTELY NO criminals on the north side.

[mrfootball]

Crime rates are fairly low in the Far North, Far NW, and Far West Houston.

There are statistically higher crime rates the closer you get to freeways.

[TheNiche]

Crime rates are fairly low in the Far North, Far NW, and Far West Houston.

There are statistically higher crime rates the closer you get to freeways.

Be careful when citing correlations...even if your assertions are accurate (and they are), those kinds of statements carry the implicit message that there is a causality link between freeways and crime.

There are indeed higher crime rates when you get closer to freeways, but areas within Beltway 8 are almost all within close proximity to freeways...and are also denser, generally less affluent, and have a lower median population age.

[GovernorAggie]

Be careful when citing correlations...even if your assertions are accurate (and they are), those kinds of statements carry the implicit message that there is a causality link between freeways and crime.

There are indeed higher crime rates when you get closer to freeways, but areas within Beltway 8 are almost all within close proximity to freeways...and are also denser, generally less affluent, and have a lower median population age.

Yes I agree. And if you're including crime reports like shoplifting, car burglary, and the like--then of course areas near the freeways will be higher--since that's where more cars and retail outlets are.

[nmainguy]

Is this road needed or just wanted? If needed, by who? If wanted-same question.

[TheNiche]

Is this road needed or just wanted? If needed, by who? If wanted-same question.

For all practical purposes, "need" equates to "want". I know that you're going to try to nail me on this assertion, but all you're going to do is incite me to write a few pages of deconstructive literature about the uselessness of the word "need". That's something that I'd rather not do...and you won't agree with me anyway...so lets not go down that road.

The road is wanted by commuters who stand to shave a few minutes off of their drive. The road is also wanted by developers because developers understand that once the road is place, many people will want a home in the general area because the area has become more accessible. Other developers want the road because they understand that commercial tenants will want stores situated in the most accessible place to the greatest number of people that would want the services provided by those stores.

People presently living at a residence within a mile (and particularly within a half-mile) of the proposed freeway may not want it, however, because they fear that externalities will reduce the number of people that would want their home.

That's really the jist of it.

[ENGcons]

Niche it is becoming painfully obvious to me and probabaly a few others that you have no idea about things that occur outside a book. Don't get me wrong, when it comes to quoting economic theories that can be looked up in a half second on google your great, but, when the real world needs a problem solved you would probably be one of the last people to call.

I suggest that if you don't know the particular details about a very controversial topic like the Grand Parkway, speciffically segment F-2, and concrete sound barriers you shouldn't chime in. Leave the discussion to those who actually do know what is going on.

Economist

[TheNiche]

I suggest that if you don't know the particular details about a very controversial topic like the Grand Parkway, speciffically segment F-2, and concrete sound barriers you shouldn't chime in. Leave the discussion to those who actually do know what is going on.

Of course, because we ALL know that Spring is an absolutely unique place, where the historical experiences of other communities simply cannot be applied. To do so would in fact be a travesty!

The rules just...change once you exit I-45. The whole notion of causality is reversed. Correlations must inherently be causal. Freeway noise is amplified and ubiquitous within many miles of the source. The citizenry likes to be stuck in traffic and will in fact avoid alternative routes in favor of hitting stoplights. And of course, prospective homebuyers refuse to gravitate to any place that is too accessible.

Get over yourself.

[nmainguy]

For all practical purposes, "need" equates to "want". I know that you're going to try to nail me on this assertion, but all you're going to do is incite me to write a few pages of deconstructive literature about the uselessness of the word "need". That's something that I'd rather not do...and you won't agree with me anyway...

I was hoping for a reply from those directly impacted-not another wordy screed opening with another whiney attack.

Anyone?

[TheNiche]

I was hoping for a reply from those directly impacted-not another wordy screed opening with another whiney attack.

Anyone?

"Directly impacted"? Well I've driven every single peice of freeway (except Fort Bend Pkwy) in Houston within the past year in order to complete work-related assignments...I'd say that the odds are good that I'll one day use F-2, thus making me "directly impacted", as per your requirement. I'll probably also be tolled in the process...another "direct impact".

Happy?