Trendy "Urban" Developments

[tierwestah]

I'm starting this thread in response to the exciting news of the new lovely Suburban development CVS going up in Midtown. I didn't want to be accused of hi-jacking the thread so i'm starting it here.

I just want to say that i'm trying hard not to give up on this city. But i am frustrated at how slow progress has been made in the Midtown area. I hate to see a city like Houston, "my home" get left behind in developing urban/pedestrian trendy type developments. Dallas is kicking our ___es when it comes to developing urban, mass transit- oriented pedestrian developments. Look at their Uptown area? It hurts me that while other cities similar to Houston such as Dallas, Atlanta, and even DENVER (A city i can't stand) is making progress in developing these type of developments. Driving through downtown Houston i see deserted, parking lot, and run-down buildings with no street life (Bums at Greyhound station hardly qualify).

I hate to be a downer yall but i've been following these architecture/skyscraper forums for about 2 1/2 years now and i've grown tired. Houston has these exciting plans for developments that rarely make it past the drawing board. Town & Country seems like a nice plan but i see 3 things wrong with it: 1) It's too freakin' far away from the city 2) There are no plans to have mass transit which gives city dwellers and visitors easy access to Downtown, Uptown/Greenway plaza areas. 3) The new Katy Freeway expansion is just repeating the same mistakes Houston's made in the past by strictly promoting more automobile use. I've been away from Houston for about 6 or 7 months and i come back and things are still the same. I go to Dallas and they are working overtime trying to insure Victory development doesn't miss a beat. Houston can't even get dirt moved for the Houston Pavilions, a promised plan of an Intermodal transit center, a stupid American Apparrel store downtown to add to shopping, or even more LIGHTRAIL.

ARRGH!!! :angry2: (Tierwestah takes a breath) :closedeyes: OK, i'm cool now!

I know what alot of you are probably gonna say already! " Move and don't come back to Houston if its not fast enough for you! " **** that! I just want to see my city be on par and move toward being a world class city like we see out of its sister cities!!! Is that too much to ask.... HOUSTON???

Now i like the plans for the new Urban park downtown, Hardy Railyard, and the Houston Pavilions (If it actually happens!!!) But right now i just don't see Houston picking up enough steam on these type of developments.

Sorry for the rant but either i rant here or take it out on my girlfriend

[RedScare]

Every couple of months, someone makes this same tired thread, completely clueless how long it takes to get $200 million projects off the ground. I'm not falling for this crap again. I'll let the clueless carp and moan. And, I'm not going to mention who I talked to, and what was said about a 5 block area of downtown next to Main Street, while I was at the Astros game last week.

Why? Because the same people will be whining in 3 more months. The whiners can have this thread.

[tierwestah]

OK whatever dogg. But what do you think about Dallas and Atlanta's new developments? See after visiting a few of these cities, you can see what i'm talking about. It just seems that our beloved city is "stuck". It can't get past the times of when the freeway dominated the earth. Why do these developments only take forever to get off the ground in Houston? Dallas's Victory project is on wheels. Houston will be lucky if we see some dirt fly.

So as to your little comment... WHINING? NO. It's called frustration and wanting to see more out of my city of Houston. It could be so much more.

[RedScare]

Dallas Victory - Remediation started in 1997.

Atlantic Station - Started in 1998.

You've only known about these two developments for 6 months to a year. You wake up one day, look at HAIF, and a new thread shows buildings being built, and you whine that Houston is behind. Brotha, please! If HP had been on the books for 9 years, as Victory has, or 8 years, as Atlantic Station has, I'd listen to you. HP has been around for about a year and you are already complaining. Same with Hardy Yards.

When you compare apples to apples, I'll listen....Dogg.

[JGraspo]

And, I'm not going to mention who I talked to, and what was said about a 5 block area of downtown next to Main Street, while I was at the Astros game last week.

Come on Red...you can PM me .....promise I won't moan

[largeTEXAS]

OK whatever dogg? But what do you think about Dallas and Atlanta's new developments. See after visiting a few of these cities, you can see what i'm talking about. It just seems that our beloved city is "stuck". It can't get past the times of when the freeway dominated the earth. Why do these developments only take forever to get off the ground in Houston? Dallas's Victory project is on wheels. Houston will be lucky if we see some dirt fly.

So as to your little comment... WHINING? NO. It's called frustration and wanting to see more out of my city of Houston. It could be so much more.

Alright, first of all dirt if flying on Kirby and Westheimer. Second, I can't always be the guy being Mr. Positive, but Houston is damn hot right now. Just got back from Vegas where everyone in the retail and real estate business nationwide was talking about Houston. Quietly there is a boom happening. The exciting thing is that 1) it hasn't really been acknowledged by the city 2) it is just about to start resulting in product. I won't bore you with all the numerous exciting projects and transactions but I can assure you this city will look quite different before you know it. So get out there and take some photos before it all happens.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

I won't bore you with all the numerous exciting projects and transactions

Bore us...that's what we're here for . But I can see why you don't want to let the cat out, if it doesn't start by next month the nay sayers will surface and you will be left to defend "wishful thinking, ideas that will never happen......"

Regulars know that largeTexas is pretty reliable, it will take years of nothingness to bring down my optimism in this city. Just a matter of time

[The Great Hizzy!]

LMAO

I guess it really had been a while since there was a meltdown type of thread like this. There's a thread over on Skyscraperpage in the "City Compilations" folder (The Houston Thread) that does an excellent job of debunking this type of panic-riddled posting.

Oh well.

The grass is always greener or it's always more exciting to contemplate jumping off a ledge or whichever cliche you wanna use.

Heh.

[tierwestah]

Ok maybe my initial post came off a little bit in panic. truth be told, i want best for Houston. I just can't stand it when i see other cities moving toward pedestrian-oriented environments when Houston is continuing with huge surface lots, massive sprawl and forever expanding freeways. While Dallas gets victory and hot new stuff in their uptown area, Houston is getting the same ol' suburban type CVS centers in its midtown. I'm just frustrated.

You can understand that huh Redscare aka...... DOGG!!!

[The Great Hizzy!]

The problem is that when you hear about developments in other cities, you focus on THAT development and you don't really keep in mind the other development in that area or city.

What if I told you that Atlantic Station, despite being hot, urban-minded and energetic, is half surrounded by a gutted warehouse district, unused land, decayed housing projects and infrastructure so bad that it's going to take hundreds of millions of dollars to make those areas even remotely attractive to future developers who might be interested in building there? The odds are that even if AS expanded, it would take a couple of decades to fully rehabilitate the serious blight surrounding the northern, western and southern borders of AS. Atlantic Station itself is a ten year effort that took the remediation of hundreds of square acres of unused warehouses, storage facilities and factories. It doesn't happen overnight.

Also, keep in mind that Uptown Dallas (another ten to fifteen year old project which sits on once blighted land) has been the CENTRAL focus of urban development in Big D--and that's fine; I don't disagree with that focus, but when comparing urban projects in Dallas to urban projects in Houston, you're using a 3-5 square mile area of Dallas as if it is representative of all development going on in that city while similarly taking a strip center in Midtown and assuming that it's representative of all the type of development that's not only going on in Midtown but in Houston overall.

Neither is even remotely true. Yet there seems to be a sizable number of posters at HAIF who take one or two "negative" factors and compare it to any and every "positive" that they've heard about in other cities. It's not a fair analysis and completely ignores the hard reality concerning development in Houston (or Dallas, Phoenix, Atlanta, Charlotte, etc). Developers develop for a wide array of potential customers, both hot and hip urbanist and traditional suburbanite.

The best thing to do for yourself in developing either a true positive or negative (or both) view of what type of development is going on in ANY city is to view the city overall rather than focus on one or two neighborhoods where new developments are most likely to be mentioned.

Houston's urban redevelopment isn't reflected in just Midtown (in fact, only a minority percentage is).

To wit,

How quickly we forget how empty and gutted the Warehouse District east of DT was or how empty Midtown itself was or how industrial and decayed the Washington Ave corridor was prior to 2000. Those areas are all seeing signifcant changes, some faster than others. For perspective, just head up and down Washington, Memorial, Allen Parkway and W. Dallas to look at the shift in housing. There are new midrises and highrises on Montrose, new multi-unit townhomes and rehabilited structures housing stores or offices. The Fourth Ward was one of the most notorious ghettos west of the Mississippi and now it is over run with densely packed new residential properties sporting some good design with some bad design. All of this from the Jackson Hill Development to Bayou on the Bend to the Ballpark Lofts reflects a stronger than average approach to sturdy, urban living. Yet for some reason, people focus on any negative concerning Midtown. It's just really odd to me.

Re: CVS--the apparent perpetrator of this odd feeling of discontent and panic lately--the simple fact is that while CVS built the suburban style store on the northern half of Midtown, they did open what is probably the most urban of their urban-styled stores on Main Street. What does that mean? It means CVS is likely to open a store with a design that they think will give them the best access to their customers. In DT, it's a store along the sidewalk in a residential midrise, with hundreds of customers walking by everyday. In the upper Midtown location, it's designed to provide access to people who drive in or out to/from work as well as provide respectable access to hundreds and thousands of residents who live within four or five blocks. What will the new location look like? It's probably dependent on what's surrounding it.

And, believe me, I'm curious to see what the new CVS store's design will be but I certainly am not going to assume it's representative of what all new development in Midtown is going to be. After all, it's only one store out of dozens that have opened up in the area, particularly when you go in either direction on Elgin and see some significant urban developments, including the new retail center at the corner of Louisiana (Pub Fiction, etc) that was built with a solid urban focus. Why is that development not celebrated as much as a proposed CVS store is ridiculed? Again, seems like odd unbalanced criticism to me.

I guess what's most odd (and I imagine frustrating for some) about these rants is that people seem to really fixate on some small, insignificant development such as the CVS and yet hardly ever mention something like the Edge, which is coming along with almost no fanfare and which will be a massive presence in Midtown, ten times more impactful than even the most urban-designed CVS ever would be. Once again, it seems like a very odd focus to me.

If you're going to be extremely negative about a CVS (which hasn't even been built or whose designed hasn't even been revealed--at least, not to my knowledge), it would seem to reflect proper balance if you included a consideration of something like the Edge or the ongoing development of Hardy Yard, Houston Pavillions and the new park community in eastern DT.

And I haven't even touched urban redevelopment in the Museum District, Med Center, Greenway Plaza or Uptown/Galleria.

I mean, give the ol' town a little credit before you push her off the cliff.

[Subdude]

Thanks Hizzy. You said that better than I ever could have.

It is frustrating sometimes looking at the number of projects that don't make it for some reason or another, but anyone who has hung around boards like this long enough will realize that probably most large proposals never make it into reality.

As I said about Midtown, just because a lot of development hasn't necessarily been optimal, doesn't mean that there hasn't been some improvement. Many people have been unhappy with how neighborhoods have changed - CVSs in Midtown, "tin cans" in 4th Ward, townhouses instead of bungalows in Montrose - but net net the effect has still been positive for the city. I'm not sure if we'll ever be a city of "urban" pedestrian neighborhoods, but I think maybe developments like Houston Pavillions will start to get people thinking in that direction.

[GovernorAggie]

I think one key thing to note about Dallas, Atlanta, and Denver is that they are all landlocked and outward expansion is not an option for those cities proper. Redevelopment is the only way to keep things rolling and the tax rolls growing. In my opinion, Houston has a long way to go beforehand they meet the same time as those three cities. However, I will say that when the Chronicle posts on the front page next year sometime that Harris County dropped to the fourth largest county in the US (behind Maricopa, AZ) it will be a bit of a psyche blow to the powers that be here. Who knows how they may respond to Desert County taking over Space County.

I'm with most folks here. While I understand T's vent--it's just that, a vent. He knows that Houston is on the up and up.

Now, largeTEXAS and RedScare, could you let us in on the potential news? I myself have heard some things for several blocks around Minute Maid. I'll tell if you'll tell

[The Great Hizzy!]

Now, largeTEXAS and RedScare, could you let us in on the potential news? I myself have heard some things for several blocks around Minute Maid. I'll tell if you'll tell

Dangit! I hate when you all do that.

[RedScare]

We really need to be honest with ourselves a bit, too. None of these projects in any of these cities is really a pedestrian oriented development. Why? Because the people that these developments attract do not get out of their cars. In another thread, posters complained, me included, about CVS. But, the fact is, even the residents of Midtown will drive their Beemers to the store.

Same rule applies to Victory. As exciting as it sounds, everyone knows that people will drive to Victory. There are only several hundred VERY expensive condos being built, meaning only several hundred rich people will live there. The rest will drive and park in the very large parking garages that you'll notice at the bottom of each tower.

It is a shame, but that is reality. And, the developers must deal in reality, or the projects will fail. Now, giving the driver the opportunity to walk to several shops after he/she drives to the area, is better than nothing. But, to expect NY or SF style pedestrian activity is to ignore the realities that are Southern big cities.

[rantanamo]

Interesting post, Red, but I don't think you're exactly right. Just because you build a parking garage, does not mean its not pedestrian oriented. Let's take the W or The House vs your typical Las Colinas tower. The Victory towers are built with 0 setback. They have large sidewalks, and ground floor retail. The garages in Victory are all built either above the ground floor level or below. I would call that pedestrian oriented. A tightly squeezed garage with an out of the way entrance/exit is not exactly what I'd call car oriented. In comparison, most Las Colinas towers are just a tower surrounded by parking or a small lawn with a skinny sidewalk and attached garage on the back. No retail. No movement. No people space except for that to get to and fro your car.

I think Mockingbird Station and West Village itself are examples of what not to do. Too much head in parking. The use of space is very pedestrian though. The rest of the Cityplace West are though is excellent. The garages are very hidden, and the developments are very pedestrian oriented and much easier to reach by rail(subway station and trolley) or bus. Just because car use is integrated does not mean it is not pedestrian oriented. Manhattan style urbanism is not the only way to do it. It just needs to be done right. I don't think Victory is exactly the example to criticize. All the individual towers going up in the Lower McKinney area and Turtle Creek on the otherhand are good examples.

[KinkaidAlum]

Red hit it on the head...

There have been several new midrise developments in my neighborhood in Boston (South End). All have been built to reflect the pedestrian feel of the greater neighborhood but my realtor friends laugh about the different demographics in each new project.

The Atelier is the grandest of them all. Has a concierge and valet parking and it was mostly marketed to folks outside of the neighborhood. While there's ground floor retail and wide bricked sidewalks, the majority of the building's inhabitants still drive everywhere. The inside joke amongst local realtors is that it was built for people who "think" they want to move to the city.

By comparison, there's Wilkes Passage. A new loft building that was widely marketed to folks who already lived in the city. The ground floor retail bustles and you see people actually walking in and out of the front doors with their dogs, groceries, dry cleaning, etc... instead of waiting for their car to be pulled around by a valet.

[RedScare]

I like your neighbors' sense of humor, KA.

Rant, my post was not to pick on any project, and certainly not Victory. Hillwood is doing the best it can with what it has to work with. Certainly, a Victory resident COULD walk around the project, once it is further along. But, there will only be 500 to 1000 residents of Victory. Where will all of the other "pedestrians" come from? Why, they will drive to Victory, of course.

The same problem exists in Midtown. Residents COULD walk, or bike, or taxi to where they need to go. But, most of them drive. Why? For the same reason they live in Midtown in the first place. It is hip and trendy. And hip and trendy folk don't walk, except on a treadmill. Hip and trendy folk drive their hip and trendy cars to be valet parked at hip and trendy cafes and shoppes.

To be sure, there are some pedestrians in Midtown (some post on this forum), and there will be a few in Victory. But, not many. Until there is a mindset that walking is preferable to driving, we will not see many pedestrian neighborhoods in Texas, merely a few pedestrian CAPABLE neighborhoods. And, it is hard to fault a developer for building what the people want, even in a pedestrian neighborhood.

[zebra]

i agre w/u redscare. i think for Texas to build the pedistrin frendly areas, it goes aganst the grain. for years texas has ben situatid around the automoble. now its starting to realise what it could of done to mk it better. i mean, its good to build neighborhood that encurage less driving. that wil definitly result in cleaner air, fewer trafic accidents, and etc. But you speek from realitee, the rest of us speek from fantisee. As much as we try, we are texas and we luv our cars!

[bachanon]

i agre w/u redscare. i think for Texas to build the pedistrin frendly areas, it goes aganst the grain. for years texas has ben situatid around the automoble. now its starting to realise what it could of done to mk it better. i mean, its good to build neighborhood that encurage less driving. that wil definitly result in cleaner air, fewer trafic accidents, and etc. But you speek from realitee, the rest of us speek from fantisee. As much as we try, we are texas and we luv our cars!

is this guy text messaging?

[C2H]

is this guy text messaging?

Not to attack anyone on this forum but everytime i start to read a post from Zebra or Plastic, i know i'm in for a laugh.

Back to the topic. I think what it takes is patience for Houston to see more of these newer lifestyle developments. Being a Colorado resident, i frequent Denver alot. I also go to Houston quite often because alot of my family and girlfriend lives there. I can confirm that Denver's downtown is definitely ahead of Houston's, Dallas's, and Austin's. Denver's downtown is even live on Sundays at 16th Street Mall. The only Texas city downtown that i think currently competes with Denver's downtown activity is San Antonio.

I think if i had hung out in Houston's downtown prior to the year 2000, i would have really been in tears. Right now, Houston to me appears like its picking itself up from a long slump. It's getting all these new exciting plans such as: The Downtown Park/Park Tower, Hardy Rail Yards, Houston Pavilions, and more. I want to see nothing but the best for Houston myself. I just hope that all this stuff doesn't start happening when i'm an old man.

[bachanon]

i think the thing that is missing from all of these developments is middle/low income housing options. it seems ironic that the people who can least afford transportation will have to drive and park to work in or enjoy these centers of activity.

perhaps a discount mall/walmart mixed-use development wave will be next.

[TAK]

i think the thing that is missing from all of these developments is middle/low income housing options. it seems ironic that the people who can least afford transportation will have to drive and park to work in or enjoy these centers of activity.

perhaps a discount mall/walmart mixed-use development wave will be next.

it may 'seem' ironic, but it is certainly by design.

[WesternGulf]

Isn't Victory connected by transit? I have a friend that is quite familiar with some of the plans going on in Dallas and he says the way Downtown and Uptown is shaping up, it does have the potential to become more of an area that intimdates the automobile.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I just want to say that i'm trying hard not to give up on this city. But i am frustrated at how slow progress has been made in the Midtown area. I hate to see a city like Houston, "my home" get left behind in developing urban/pedestrian trendy type developments.

I understand exactly where you're coming from particularly because of the new CVS in Midtown. Midtown's the perfect area to try pedestrian developments, and CVS could have been on the first floor of a high-rise instead of taking up space. Opportunity wasted with it's land. It's not over for Midtown though, because there's plenty that can be tore down or redeveloped.

Also, I think Town 'n Country will be successful, because it's not too far from the Memorial City developments. Perhaps the property between the two would become a hotspot as well?

[TheNiche]

I understand exactly where you're coming from particularly because of the new CVS in Midtown. Midtown's the perfect area to try pedestrian developments, and CVS could have been on the first floor of a high-rise instead of taking up space.

A highrise wouldn't have been feasible.

[NewMND]

But what's going on around MMP? The curiosity is killing me.

[rantanamo]

Isn't Victory connected by transit? I have a friend that is quite familiar with some of the plans going on in Dallas and he says the way Downtown and Uptown is shaping up, it does have the potential to become more of an area that intimdates the automobile.

It is. The thing about Victory and the West End area is that they are easy to reach by car, but not the easiest place to park. People are intimidated by that already. I've heard it many times.

As for what would bring pedestrian traffic to that area? Office buildings, restaurants, residences, retail, the grocery, the park. The mix works in the Cityplace West/ West Village area already, and its not close to build out. If there are things that people have to or want to do in the immediate vicinity and walking from point to point is easier than finding a parking spot at each place, then walking ensues, no matter how one gets to that area.

[DJ V Lawrence]

But what's going on around MMP? The curiosity is killing me.

On the MMP side of the freeway...MMP. On the other side of the freeway...hundreds of homeless. SOOOOOOOO much potential in old China Town. I'm baffled and thrown off as to the lack of development there. THAT AREA NEEDS A TRENDY URBAN DEVELOPMENT MORE THAN ANY OTHER!!!! And by the way, what good is it to kick the homeless out of Downtown and Midtown, when all they do is migrate across the freeway to MMP? It's a joke. Where's the homeless shelters? Where's the emphasis on development immediately surrounding downtown (the Heights, old Chinatown, etc.)?

I think Midtown and parts of the Heights may be the only positive thing directly surrounding Downtown Houston. That's a shame because of the beautiful skyline we have.

[zebra]

Every couple of months, someone makes this same tired thread, completely clueless how long it takes to get $200 million projects off the ground. I'm not falling for this crap again. I'll let the clueless carp and moan. And, I'm not going to mention who I talked to, and what was said about a 5 block area of downtown next to Main Street, while I was at the Astros game last week.

Why? Because the same people will be whining in 3 more months. The whiners can have this thread.

hey redscare. can u tell us what the 5 block area next to main street is all aboute? I promis i wont say anithing. i just want a littel hope to go off of. i'll pm u

[C2H]

I can sort of relate to Tierwestah's frustration. I mean, i live in Colorado Springs and i get frustrated over the fact that a city that's over 1/2 million people can't even have a skyline that comes close to Amarillo TX. No buildings over 50 stories have been built here since 1991. Denver is only 60 miles from here but we're still a relatively large sprawled out mini- metro of our own. Everything new, hip, and exciting goes to Denver. We don't have the rivalry here in Colorado that Dallas and Houston does. Everyone in Colorado knows Denver is the premier city and always will be. Colorado Springs is more military, computer industry.

As far as tierwestah's angry rant of a post. I will say that it is easier to watch another city's projects and improvements if you don't live there. While Victory is great, i find it remarkable that Houston has many different business districts which makes it feel like there's actually 5 cities that sit in the city of Houston alone.

If i lived in Dallas or Denver, i could easily envy and say that the improvements Houston has made over the last 6 years have been nothing but colossal. Think about it: 3 new sports stadiums, GRB expansion, Main Street Square, Midtown redevelopment/regentrification (Camden and The Edge), TMC expansions, Uptown/Galleria expansions and developments, Town and Country, 4th ward regentrification, Town and Country, Endeavor Condos. I mean most of these things that i mentioned are happening in the city limits of Houston alone not to mention all the developments happening in Galveston, Katy, The Woodlands, Sugarland, Pearland. !!! That sounds like a hot city to me!!!

I don't know what some people here are so worried about. Houston seems to be doing quite well to me. The only major element it seems to lack is more mass transportation options. At least we know there's studies being done on it now so that's a good sign. But things will take time. I guess the next major thing i'm excited to hear about in Houston is the Houston Pavilions. If Denver Pavlions could do it for Denver, imagine what it could do for Houston!!