house okays oil drilling in wildlife refuge

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I understand where you're coming from, Moonman. I take it you're referring to Pearl Harbor, and America's response to it. No country has directly attacked America's mainland since. America has a pretty good history of response, and I think the world already recognizes that.

I think the difference between you and me is how to end conflict. I don't believe whole countries deserve a genocide if their government attacks us. I do believe that their brass needs to be taken out, and that country needs to be given the opportunity to rebuild because there are innocent people within that population, and they will need help to rebuild because they no longer have the power and resources. Do you agree yes or no? And if not, how should that country rebuild itself?

DJ, you guys are new school and in control now. My boys and i, the old school, have been run out of power and called mad men and insane :(

In the good old days, rebuilding would not be an issue.........

Im not a fan of the way the Afghan. operation was handled and im not a fan of the rebuilding process.

I wasnt speaking about Pearl though, i was speaking of all the non attacks on American soil that did NOT occur when the old school was in power. The old military planners didnt leave room for a rebuilding process, instead the message was clear cut...."F*CK with us and you die" With that sort of strategy and madness, no one dared call us to the mat for play. Our leader extraordinaire, mr. Clinton couldnt get rid of us fast enough :(

Now, we are tripping over ourselves with humane bombing and rebuilding--so much so that it sometimes put our troops in harms way. In our enlightened way of thinking, its a good thing. In an enemy way of thinking, its a weakness. Afraid to risk collateral damage to seek them out. Knowing that, they hide amongst the civilian populous and launch attacks from there :(

In the old days, the only fear we had was loosing, and we were all taught that loosing was not an option. Everything that could be done would be done to insure absolute victory with an acceptable outcome.

[nmainguy]

I don't believe I'm confused, I am pissed off. If the left would quit tying our hands...

I too am pissed. After 9.11 we had the world on our side. The left, right and middle were all for going after the people who struck us that Tuesday morning. But we pulled a half-ass operation and left osama to run free while we lied ourslves into attacking Iraq. If Bush had stayed the course-kept his eye on those that pulled off the attack, he could have been appointed Pope. He started out on the right foot [no pun intended] and screwed it up when he cut loose with the lies.

Like Red said, this is your guy's show. The Republicans wanted complete control of everything and they got it. Always watch what you wish for, buddy.

DJ, you guys are new school and in control now. My boys and i, the old school, have been run out of power and called mad men and insane :(

You're the one with all the "secret" info you can only allude to but can't really say because of "national security"? Well if you and your little "boys" are no longer in control-and I doubt you ever were-why can't you just spill the supposed over-cooked beans?

[RedScare]

Everyone thought the military was doing a good job until some of our own were getting killed by IEDs because we can't clean and sweep the dwellings of suspect houses, because we might spook a few women and children.

...but we need embedded reporters to chronicle all the goings on of war, then when they see what dangers our boys are put in, they cry foul.

Spook a few women and children? Is that the word you use when they shoot women and children? Read the news, dude. They're not spooking women and children. They're killing them. Kinda hard to expect them to think we're the good guys when that happens.

Man, you're memory of how this all came about needs some work. The Bush people WANTED embedded reporters, so the glorious war could be splashed across TV screens...and they could control it. Check it out. The left didn't put them there, Rumsfeld did. When it didn't work out the way they dreamed it, however, they regretted the decision. But, that just shows hoe deluded their thinking was about how easy this would be.

DJ, you guys are new school and in control now. My boys and i, the old school, have been run out of power and called mad men and insane :(

In the good old days, rebuilding would not be an issue.........

Old school? You mean World War II? We rebuilt Germany and Japan, and they are 2 of our closest allies, though Bush is trying to ruin that.

But you left in 1993, so you must mean a bit more recent...like Grenada. Yeah, that's it, Grenada. I don't think we rebuilt Grenada. Good job, guys. Grenada has never messed with us again.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I too am pissed. After 9.11 we had the world on our side. The left, right and middle were all for going after the people who struck us that Tuesday morning. But we pulled a half-ass operation and left osama to run free while we lied ourslves into attacking Iraq. If Bush had stayed the course-kept his eye on those that pulled off the attack, he could have been appointed Pope. He started out on the right foot [no pun intended] and screwed it up when he cut loose with the lies.

Like Red said, this is your guy's show. The Republicans wanted complete control of everything and they got it. Always watch what you wish for, buddy.

You're the one with all the "secret" info you can only allude to but can't really say because of "national security"? Well if you and your little "boys" are no longer in control-and I doubt you ever were-why can't you just spill the supposed over-cooked beans?

Being a PROUD American and loving this country from dusk till dawn and in the sleeping hours, i will not tell things i swore to keep hush hush. If you want to know all the secrets, get off your duff and go to the military academy, attend submarine school, achieve a commission and high level security clearance. You will have more secrets than you could handle then. Shouldnt be too stressful for you, that ninny Clinton lower the requirements to qualify for the sub/nuke program.

The love of your life, Clinton, knew that we couldnt speak in detail of how BAD his enlightened way of thinking was, because ALL members of the armed forces involved with strategic affairs/planning are bound by an 85 yr rule....

And FYI, if you hear people in the media or otherwise refer to bombing as strategic, ask them what the rads are, and if the readings are being taken on the hour or the half hour. Ask them if it was an air burst or ground burst. Ask them the radius of the blast wave........

Strategic Bombing/Strikes is nuclear. Surgical Bombing/Strikes is the crap you see happening today on the tv cameras :)

[nmainguy]

Being a PROUD American and loving this country from dusk till dawn and in the sleeping hours, i will not tell things i swore to keep hush hush. If you want to know all the secrets, get off your duff and go to the military academy, attend submarine school, achieve a commission and high level security clearance. You will have more secrets than you could handle then. Shouldnt be too stressful for you, that ninny Clinton lower the requirements to qualify for the sub/nuke program.

The love of your life, Clinton, knew that we couldnt speak in detail of how BAD his enlightened way of thinking was, because ALL members of the armed forces involved with strategic affairs/planning are bound by an 85 yr rule....

And FYI, if you hear people in the media or otherwise refer to bombing as strategic, ask them what the rads are, and if the readings are being taken on the hour or the half hour. Ask them if it was an air burst or ground burst. Ask them the radius of the blast wave........

Strategic Bombing/Strikes is nuclear. Surgical Bombing/Strikes is the crap you see happening today on the tv cameras :)

The love of my life is at work but, yeah, that Clinton. Can you believe he pulled off Kosovo AND Bosnia without ONE fatality? What a looser. Opps! I'm sorry...I believe 2 airmen died in a training exercise over Albania.

All kidding aside, you continue to come on here posing as a living, breathing, sleeping "patriot" but it all rings so unreal. If you do indeed posess "secret" intelligence, don't you think it would be worth your while to keep it to yourself, lest someone smarter than you track your ISP address and torture it out of you by way of your family members. I'd never be so stupid to allude to government secrets on the internet. You just come off as a poser, dude.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Old school? You mean World War II? We rebuilt Germany and Japan, and they are 2 of our closest allies, though Bush is trying to ruin that.

But you left in 1993, so you must mean a bit more recent...like Grenada. Yeah, that's it, Grenada. I don't think we rebuilt Grenada. Good job, guys. Grenada has never messed with us again.

No. Old school was not WW2. Most of the leaders of the old school teachings were born out of WW2 but started the old school strategy during the Cold War. As for Germany and Japan, the ties are very strong. Dont believe for one second that the leaders of those countries do not know the score. What would you say if i told you that the German gov. on many levels as well as the French gov. on a much smaller scale was supporting the American ops. in Iraq? What would you say if i told you one of the main reasons they didnt want to openly support the Iraq ops is because they were afraid of angering the VERY LARGE Muslim populous in thier countries?

Grenada and Libya in the 1980's. All have forgotten Mr. Bush only threatened Libya, right after the Iraq op. was well underway, to surrender WMD's or else. They complied and the weapons were brought to Texas and dismantled.

Im no fan of Rumsfeld or Cheney for that matter. Dont even get me started with the Cheney thing.......... I was around when that man stalked the halls of the Pentagon, not one of my favorite people. I rank him right up there with Mr. Clinton!!

[nmainguy]

No. Old school was not WW2. Most of the leaders of the old school teachings were born out of WW2 but started the old school strategy during the Cold War. As for Germany and Japan, the ties are very strong. Dont believe for one second that the leaders of those countries do not know the score. What would you say if i told you that the German gov. on many levels as well as the French gov. on a much smaller scale was supporting the American ops. in Iraq? What would you say if i told you one of the main reasons they didnt want to openly support the Iraq ops is because they were afraid of angering the VERY LARGE Muslim populous in thier countries?

Grenada and Libya in the 1980's. All have forgotten Mr. Bush only threatened Libya, right after the Iraq op. was well underway, to surrender WMD's or else. They complied and the weapons were brought to Texas and dismantled.

Im no fan of Rumsfeld or Cheney for that matter. Dont even get me started with the Cheney thing.......... I was around when that man stalked the halls of the Pentagon, not one of my favorite people. I rank him right up there with Mr. Clinton!!

Oooooooooo! Mort secret stuff!!!! Man, you are a hoot.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

The love of my life is at work but, yeah, that Clinton. Can you believe he pulled off Kosovo AND Bosnia without ONE fatality? What a looser. Opps! I'm sorry...I believe 2 airmen died in a training exercise over Albania.

All kidding aside, you continue to come on here posing as a living, breathing, sleeping "patriot" but it all rings so unreal. If you do indeed posess "secret" intelligence, don't you think it would be worth your while to keep it to yourself, lest someone smarter than you track your ISP address and torture it out of you by way of your family members. I'd never be so stupid to allude to government secrets on the internet. You just come off as a poser, dude.

Well aware of all of that. I havent broken any laws by posting here, hell even Helen Kellar can see that. Im also WELL aware that the looking into emails and phone calls, etc isnt a new occurance!!! Its been going on for years, now all of a sudden its in the spotlight...hmmmm. Makes a nice story for TV cameras.

Stop referring to the TV camera ops. Those weapons performed just as they were suppose to. Put on a good show for the cameras, and Americans can give themselves a pat on the back for tax money well spent. American public can fall back into a false feeling of security. Those same weapons and thier performance was used to further downsize military opts. There are 6 words every military planner and boss should know, "Attention to Detail" and "REDUNDANCY_REDUNDANCY_REDUNDANCY". There should always be backups for the backups for the backups. No weapons system works 100%, but thats the impression the tv cameras presented for you and you see it as a complete success. What happens when they come up against an enemy that knows how to defeat it? Your boy Clinton cut the military budget across the board"its the economy stupid" He should share a little blame for the intelligence failures leading up to the police action in Iraq.......

[RedScare]

What would you say if i told you that the German gov. on many levels as well as the French gov. on a much smaller scale was supporting the American ops. in Iraq? What would you say if i told you one of the main reasons they didnt want to openly support the Iraq ops is because they were afraid of angering the VERY LARGE Muslim populous in thier countries?

I'd tell you to tell me something I don't know. Afghanistan is an even bigger cooperation. The blame the French, Germans and Canadians thing is only for ignorant patriotic consumption...and Bill O'Reilly. I've always imagined Bush and Chirac chuckling over that, the way two sports teams feign hatred in their rivalries, only to go partying together later.

[nmainguy]

Well aware of all of that.

...and yet you continue to pose-bizzare.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I'd tell you to tell me something I don't know. Afghanistan is an even bigger cooperation. The blame the French, Germans and Canadians thing is only for ignorant patriotic consumption...and Bill O'Reilly. I've always imagined Bush and Chirac chuckling over that, the way two sports teams feign hatred in their rivalries, only to go partying together later.

Allright, who have you been talking to? Dont tell us, nmainguy might get amused again The avg. American or European citizen really doesnt understand how close the ties are between Europe and America. When it comes to Britain, the rest of Europe says "the English Channel is larger than the Atlantic Ocean", in reference to the super strong ties between the USA and UK. :) Years of extremely close collaboration will not be pissed down the drain over Iraq, no matter how much people protest on tv!!!

[DJ V Lawrence]

DJ, you guys are new school and in control now. My boys and i, the old school, have been run out of power and called mad men and insane :(

In the good old days, rebuilding would not be an issue.........

Im not a fan of the way the Afghan. operation was handled and im not a fan of the rebuilding process.

So your generation would bomb a whole nation, innocent people included, take the few prisoners, leave the land unrebuilt, and move on?

With all due respect to your military career, my school kicks ass, yo...

[nmainguy]

So your generation would bomb a whole nation, innocent people included, take the few prisoners, leave the land unrebuilt, and move on?

With all due respect to your military career, my school kicks ass, yo...

I suspect moonie is parrothead in disguise-she of the turning N. Korea into a sheet of glass.

Ah, genocide...so quick and easy-as long as you are not on the fireball end of it.

[RedScare]

Allright, who have you been talking to? Dont tell us, nmainguy might get amused again The avg. American or European citizen really doesnt understand how close the ties are between Europe and America. When it comes to Britain, the rest of Europe says "the English Channel is larger than the Atlantic Ocean", in reference to the super strong ties between the USA and UK. :) Years of extremely close collaboration will not be pissed down the drain over Iraq, no matter how much people protest on tv!!!

As evidenced by the US allowing the EU to take the lead in diplomatic negotiations with Iran. There are differences between the US and EU, to be sure, but they are not nearly as big as the differences between them and some other countries.

One of the biggest differences is the proximity of the EU to the Middle East, dictating a more diplomatic stance by the EU, as opposed to the US's sometimes bellicose approach.

I think most Europeans understand the relationship a little better than Americans. In the US, we tend to spend less time thinking about foreign policy, and when we do, we rely far too much on the lowest common denominator of television. Television responds well to natural disasters, where pictures are important. It does poorly when actual thought or debate is required.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

So your generation would bomb a whole nation, innocent people included, take the few prisoners, leave the land unrebuilt, and move on?

With all due respect to your military career, my school kicks ass, yo...

Strategic bombing would do just that........lay to rest every man, woman, child, ox and ass in its path........

I have to give you your props.....You guys kick MAD ASS!!!!! I hope and pray that you all are given every tool imaginable, military and political alike, to keep up the GREAT JOB!!!!

It takes an ENOURMOUS amount of courage and bravery to be put in the line of fire and to outperform even the best expectations, especially since sometimes you guys were not always provided the top notch equip. right away. Thats something to be most proud of!!!

As evidenced by the US allowing the EU to take the lead in diplomatic negotiations with Iran. There are differences between the US and EU, to be sure, but they are not nearly as big as the differences between them and some other countries.

One of the biggest differences is the proximity of the EU to the Middle East, dictating a more diplomatic stance by the EU, as opposed to the US's sometimes bellicose approach.

I think most Europeans understand the relationship a little better than Americans. In the US, we tend to spend less time thinking about foreign policy, and when we do, we rely far too much on the lowest common denominator of television. Television responds well to natural disasters, where pictures are important. It does poorly when actual thought or debate is required.

Someone has opened your eyes, or maybe you just know better :) The roles you see now are going back to traditional ones......Europe being the political muscle and America being the hammer that will beat any adversary into submission. The use of the EU or Europe to mediate isnt a new strategy, its just a return to the thinking of old :)

[DJ V Lawrence]

Strategic bombing would do just that........lay to rest every man, woman, child, ox and ass in its path........

I have to give you your props.....You guys kick MAD ASS!!!!! I hope and pray that you all are given every tool imaginable, military and political alike, to keep up the GREAT JOB!!!!

It takes an ENOURMOUS amount of courage and bravery to be put in the line of fire and to outperform even the best expectations, especially since sometimes you guys were not always provided the top notch equip. right away. Thats something to be most proud of!!!

I loved my time in the military, but we wouldn't be the military we were in that time period if it weren't for veterans like yourself that came before us. So thank you for giving us something to be proud of, and happy Memorial Day!

Strategic bombing would do just that........lay to rest every man, woman, child, ox and ass in its path........

Now, that's not cool. What would make us any better than extremists like Bin Laden or the Nazis if we did that? We should work as Americans, not savages...

[TJones]

Red, if the soldiers just went in there "guns a blazin'", which is highly unlikely, then the evidence will present itself and the soldiers will be handled for war crimes. If the women and children were held up where suspected insurgents were firing RPGs and AK-47 rounds, and the boys had to fire back, then that is collateral damage. It is a double edged sword for our men and women though, they can't trust anyone over there, so they have gone back to a creedo you may have heard before, "Kill'em all and let GOD sort 'em out." I have heard the reports on the news, how is that you know what the whole story is before there is even a finished investigation ? You go ahead and keep listening to CBS, they ALWAYS get the story right don't they?

Apparently I had surgical strike and strategic strike backwards. Sorry Moonman.

DJ, it should be enough of a deterent for "extremists" that we NOT have to use these sorts of weapons on them because they know what the weapons can do, and that they stop their terroristic ways. These yahoos are bold and either know that we are unlikely to use such a weapon, or they infact DON"T know what these weapons that we have can do, SO sometimes a little demonstration is in order. I think that such a showing might lead them to believe that we may be a little serious about them not being terrorists anymore, quit leaving there punk ass bombs on the side of the road, and let us get to the rebuilding of their country and give them and their families a better life.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I loved my time in the military, but we wouldn't be the military we were in that time period if it weren't for veterans like yourself that came before us. So thank you for giving us something to be proud of, and happy Memorial Day!

Now, that's not cool. What would make us any better than extremists like Bin Laden or the Nazis if we did that? We should work as Americans, not savages...

Dont you dare thank me!!!! March your ass over to the nearest mirror, take a look into it, and thank yourself! Then thank all the others that served with you. Then thank all those that continue to wear the uniform and be put in harms way. You all are the reasons we are free today, not me. Its not so easy to be away from your friends family and safety of your surroundings at home. It takes strong individuals like you all to tolerate that along with battlefield conditions, and still do an outstanding job! My time was a while ago, will be 12 yrs this yr since i wore the uniform. I have nothing but gratitude and respect for you guys, keep up the good work!

As for the nuclear option, its more than not cool, its down right madness. That madness, backed by the strong will to use it, was a very good deterrent for a long long time :)

Apparently I had surgical strike and strategic strike backwards. Sorry Moonman.

Its not a problem. Even the so called experts get it confused too :) :) Over the past few years since the Iraq invasion, i only recall 2 former generals using the terminology correctly :) It seems to be a common mistake. When watching those briefings, listen to them and see if they get it right next time :)

[DJ V Lawrence]

Dont you dare thank me!!!! March your ass over to the nearest mirror, take a look into it, and thank yourself! Then thank all the others that served with you. Then thank all those that continue to wear the uniform and be put in harms way. You all are the reasons we are free today, not me. Its not so easy to be away from your friends family and safety of your surroundings at home. It takes strong individuals like you all to tolerate that along with battlefield conditions, and still do an outstanding job! My time was a while ago, will be 12 yrs this yr since i wore the uniform. I have nothing but gratitude and respect for you guys, keep up the good work!

You gotta give your peers before you the respect where respect is earned. We had to learn from your mistakes and your successes to improve our readiness. That's very appreciated. I know the next generation will do the same as well.

As for the nuclear option, its more than not cool, its down right madness. That madness, backed by the strong will to use it, was a very good deterrent for a long long time

You've got to recognize the fact that using a nuclear threat is no longer a deterrent. We dropped two on Japan in WWII, and Japan surrendered because it was the biggest...and only series of nuclear bombs ever seen in military combat, and Japan didn't know how to respond to it. Times have changed. Now everybody and they' mama got a nuclear weapon or WMD including us. They may not have the precision technology that we do, but that doesn't neccesarily matter when it comes to a weapon that big.

That was also one of the reasons why the U.N. was created in the first place...to prevent nuclear war and/or WWIII. God forbid the world ever sees that from ANY two or more nations...