Dallas Street Promenade

[RedScare]

Reading the threads today about Finger's new apartment building, the new Downtown Park, and of all things, the Dallas Victory thread got me thinking. There have been several suggestions here about what is or could be Houston's version of Victory. Well, here it is. The Eastside of Downtown.

First, a little background. Victory is a 75 acre remediated industrial site, upon which sits AA Center. A hotel/condo tower is nearing completion, as is an office/retail building. Several more buildings are proposed. The focus of the development is high dollar trendy residences, with the attendant restaurants and shops.

Houston's east downtown has been a motley collection of rundown buildings of little historic significance, surrounded by surface parking lots. 25 years ago, in an attempt to revitalize the area, the city built the George R. Brown Convention Center. The oil bust soon followed, and all downtown development stopped soon after.

During the 90s, a renewed effort to jumpstart this area began, along the same time that Dallas decided to salvage it's industrial wasteland. AA Center was built, with a promise to develop the rest of the property. In Houston, Toyota Center was started. But, that was not all. They added on to GRB, and built the long stalled Hilton Americas Hotel (after a few federal convictions).

But, that was not enough. Victory is stuck between I-35 and Harry Hines, on the other side of Woodall Rogers. Toyota was several blocks of surface parking from civilized Downtown. What to do? Break out with the parks! Dallas plans to build parks over Woodall Rogers to connect Victory and Uptown to Downtown. Houston's new park begins only a block from the Four Seasons Hotel. The 3 block long Houston Pavillions ends only 2 surface lots from Toyota and Hilton. The Finger apartments will fill in the block between the park and the Four Seasons.

Interestingly, the thread that ties all of these projects together is Dallas Street. And the main street fronting Victory is Houston Street.

Victory is a long slender strip of land, with Houston forming it's promenade. In downtown Houston, while not currently seen this way, Dallas Street is poised to do the same. As one exits the GRB on the south end, the park stretches out for 3 blocks to your right. Hilton Americas lines up for a block and a half on your left. As you proceed west on Dallas, you'll see Toyota Center a block to your left. Finger rises to the right. Eventually, there will likely be two more buildings in the block between La Branch and Austin, and two more between Austin and Caroline. Next you'll walk along three blocks of the Pavillions on your left and the Four Seasons and more retail on the right, followed by the Main Street rail, and on to Foley's and the beautiful Humble Marriott hotel.

Admittedly, these two differ in a lot of ways. One is on the outskirts of downtown, the other closer. One is a single developer, the other a patchwork of projects. But, the end result is likely to be similar. Both will be impressive stretches of street, once completed.

Thoughts?

[musicman]

I know the Dallas name has been a thorn in Jordy Tollett's side. When the Hilton was being planned, one thing that came up repeatedly was the name of the street and whether it should be renamed. He was head of the convention bureau at that time and was really pushing to change the name. In the end, i believe too many businesses said it would create havoc to rename that stretch so they left it as Dallas.

[Highway6]

What aspect of Victory are you proposing?

It doesn't seem there are lots of unused lots along Dallas to add the residential component downtown.

The East side..?.. are you saying extend on the other side of GRB?

Or are you proposing a tree-lined pedestrian only promenade... which I think would be great to connect the new park and Sam Houston park/Buffalo Bayou park.. But, i dont think it would be good having a barrier cars can;t cross down the middle of downtown... if thats what you're proposing..

I guess I'm lost. Can you be more specific, maybe a map.. I can't see what part of Victory you want to bring to Houston.

[Gary]

Hey Red, good analogy. Parts of it reminded me of the Lincoln/Kennedy legend.

[houstonsemipro]

I like to know what he's talking about myself. Besides, why they just don't do something to the old chinatown, for crying out loud?

[Gary]

I like to know what he's talking about myself. Besides, why they just don't do something to the old chinatown, for crying out loud?

Brilliant.

[RedScare]

Semipro, I don't know if I could type enough to make sense for you, but for everyone else, my point is that even though the Victory project has a name and a single developer, Downtown Houston is doing the same thing. If you look at a map of DT, you'll see that the east side of DT is/was full of surface lots. Using Toyota Center and the Hilton as a catalyst, things are starting to get built there. The Park has added to it, as now we see that Finger is building an apartment there. Pavillions is only a block or so from the area as well.

The size of these two areas is similar, too. A city block is 2 acres. If you count the blocks from Austin to the GRB, and from Rusk south to Toyota, you'll see that it is about 40 blocks or 80 acres, about the same as Victory. In that area, we have Toyota, GRB, the 1,200 room Hilton, the proposed park, Houston Center 5, completed a few years back, a proposed apartment building, another project in the works, and next to it all, Pavillions, with 140 condos, office space, restaurants and retail.

These are all of the same amenities being built in Victory, in the same size area. The only difference is we don't have a name.

[Gary]

That is exactly what I was thinking, in fact I see the Houston side as more positive in that it's actually downtown.

Far be it from me to be the educated one around here, but it seems as if Houston has stuff going on everywhere. Uptown has BIG things about to happen, Midtown is building up, The Med Center is building constantly with the tallest tower ever in that area, the Museum district is starting on it's 30 something story apartment tower and of course DT is quietly becoming a very cool urban area.

[bachanon]

interesting contrast and comparison of dallas street developments to the victory project. dallas street may need a lighting/landscaping theme to set it apart, something modern. great post red.

[tamtagon]

interesting contrast and comparison .... great post red.

word

[scarface]

Redscare, i kind of already adressed the similarities between these two developments in another thread. You're basically stating what i did in my opening post of this thread- see below

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...?showtopic=4405

[RedScare]

You're right, scarface. I missed that completely. Obviously, I agree with you as far as the layout. There is currently a bit of disconnect between HP and Toyota/Hilton/Park, due to the two empty blocks, but once HP starts coming out of the ground, I would not be surprised to see some proposals for the empty lots.

As for lighting, the HP rendering shows the same up lights that you see on Main Street. I wonder if the intent is to use those?

[Houston19514]

I know the Dallas name has been a thorn in Jordy Tollett's side. When the Hilton was being planned, one thing that came up repeatedly was the name of the street and whether it should be renamed. He was head of the convention bureau at that time and was really pushing to change the name. In the end, i believe too many businesses said it would create havoc to rename that stretch so they left it as Dallas.

That's all correct, except for you conclusion. They did change the name. The Hilton's address is 1600 Lamar. No havoc created because the Hilton is the only thing on that short stretch of street.

[SMUrban]

I hate to be the lone voice on descent, but I see nary a resemblance between these two "projects". First Victory is a $3 billion+ development that is in the middle of phase two. The chance that the project completes all phases is very high considering over the last year they have gained a number of financial backers that are serious players. The only similarity between the two "projects" is that they both contain a park, although the Victory one is a couple acres at best.

Houston has yet to see dirt move on the park or the tower so let us all hold our comparisons for now. I do have high hopes for both the park and tower, but if that area of DT was to develop exactly as my wildest dream, it would not really compare to Victory. Victory is an amazing development that any city would be lucky to have (wish it was Houston).

I think a more fair comparison would be to the Hardy Yard Project. Both the Dallas and Houston site would be considered brownfield sites and are comparable in size and pretty goddamn close in shape of the parcel. They are both also about the same distance from their respective downtowns and should have the same product mix, although I don't think Hardy Yards will be as upscale as Victory, but that's not a bad thing (better neighborhood feel).

Edited May 16, 2006 by SMUrban

[2112]

I do see the similarities that Red points out. Although, the way I see it, Victory is a conscious effort to create something via a grand plan, while in contrast, what will become of Houston's east DT is more organic, as there is no grand plan, and it has sorta just burst out from a critical mass of momentum that has been building up in DT Houston as the various components have slowly been put in place. Dallas had a plan, while Houston did not, not really. Once again, this just comes to show somewhat of a variant in philosophy between Houston and Dallas, if you will. The chaotic, organicallly grown existence that is Houston, although wild and unappealing to the procedurally minded, is a hallmark of Houston. It is what I was trying to point out - albeit somewhat retorically - when I compared Dallas to the Krispie Kreme Donut, if you may recall. Be that as it may, what really interests me at this point is WHY, for crying out loud, does Winnie-the-pooh never wear any pants?

[bachanon]

i felt that redscare was careful to point out the contrasting elements of the projects/nonprojects. it was not a simple comparison. he pointed out similarities and differences. he also noted that one was a single developer and the other a connect-the-dots maturity of a downtown area.

2112 points out an idea i wholeheartedly agree with. houston's free wheeling marketplace is creating vibrant areas without a masterplan (yes, i hear you all..........this coming from a woodlands' resident). critical mass is upon our downtown grid. the dots are connecting. the end result, barring a new depression or world war, will be a truly livable, walkable downtown/midtown houston. the urban village concept will occur with or without planning. we will, hopefully, connect these vibrant areas experiencing critical mass (med center, downtown, midtown, uptown, museum district, greenway plaza and so on) with consistent mass transportation (errr, rail).

[dbigtex56]

Besides, why they just don't do something to the old chinatown, for crying out loud?

"They" already are. There's been some significant investments in that area, especially nightclubs, live music venues and loft apartment conversions.

The chaotic, organicallly grown existence that is Houston, although wild and unappealing to the procedurally minded, is a hallmark of Houston.

This approach works surprising well so long as the city government is responsive. When new developement springs up, it's up to the city to provide sidewalks, traffic control, drainage and whatever else is needed to serve the people. Fortunately, Mayor White seems to share this point of view, and has a good record for getting things done.

I hope that new or upgraded sidewalks and consideration of street placement, signage, lighting and traffic lights are in the works between GRB, Toyota Center and the Hilton over to the new developments in the Chinatown area. A couple of weeks ago I walked over to Sheryl Swoopes new club, and crossing the freeway was downright terrifying. A few minor changes could help to make the transition more safe and pleasant. This could really do a lot to promote the area at very little expense.

Be that as it may, what really interests me at this point is WHY, for crying out loud, does Winnie-the-pooh never wear any pants?

Because he never knows when he might find himself in the woods.

And as an aside: there's a difference between "it's" and "its". The first is a contraction, not a possessive. It's short for "it is". That which belongs to something is spelled "its". It's a possessive pronoun, and therefore does not take the apostrophe. For example, you wouldn't punctuate "that which belongs to her" as "her's", would you? No. It's "hers".

Here's a couple of examples:

"It's fun to watch the dog lick its own 'nads."

"Houston takes pride in its modern architecture, and its ability to lick its own 'nads."

That concludes today's punctuation lesson.

[bachanon]

thanks for the punctuation lesson, dbigtex. i will forever see a dog licking its own nads when i use the word it's or its.

ditto on the responsive city government statement.

as an aside, development does not require an extra "e" (developement). for instance, the word management requires the "e". develop+ment. manage+ment. sorry, i couldn't help myself.

[RedScare]

I have found it is always dangerous to correct someone on this forum.