Galveston Feasibility Study

[J.A.S.O.N.]

Consultant to develop rail strategy

By Kelly Hawes

The Daily News

Published May 8, 2006

GALVESTON - "The city council last month asked its transportation consultant to develop a strategy to bring high-speed rail services to the island.

Barry Goodman, president of The Goodman Corp., said he thought the time was right to pursue such a project.

When you look at this region, it's amazing to me that more hasn't happened already, he said.

Goodman said that, with the current cost of gasoline, support for the idea of a commuter rail service could only grow...."

http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.l...9439824c6ab0398

Can a train take the strain from island life?

By Michael A. Smith

The Daily News

Published May 9, 2006

"How would the marketability of all those loft projects in downtown Galveston be affected if they were within walking distance of a high-speed rail station? It's not farfetched to think the service would open a new market of people who'd like to live near the Gulf but loathe making the drive to work in Houston..."

http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.l...a4f27966590d128

Edited May 10, 2006 by J.A.S.O.N.

[TheNiche]

"How would the marketability of all those loft projects in downtown Galveston be affected if they were within walking distance of a high-speed rail station? It's not farfetched to think the service would open a new market of people who'd like to live near the Gulf but loathe making the drive to work in Houston..."

The only really big hurdle is that the commuter rail would have a very long ramp-up period as those that would consider commuting from Galveston to Houston made new homebuying decisions over the course of possibly four or five years. I'm not sure that such a system could survive political pressures in the first year of operation if it isn't producing immediate ridership.

Even then, unfortunately, part of that decision to relocate and use the rail system entails that new Galveston residents buy not only real estate, but also homeowner's insurance supplemented with a windstorm and hail policy. Right now, that can easily equate to a $1,500 or more kick in the wallet each year...and it kind of negates savings on gasoline as far as most people would be concerned.

I also have trouble buying the evacuation BS that gets thrown around for every coastal transportation project...still I hope it happens and that folks have the political will to stick it out.

[RedScare]

The only really big hurdle is that the commuter rail would have a very long ramp-up period as those that would consider commuting from Galveston to Houston made new homebuying decisions over the course of possibly four or five years. I'm not sure that such a system could survive political pressures in the first year of operation if it isn't producing immediate ridership.

Even then, unfortunately, part of that decision to relocate and use the rail system entails that new Galveston residents buy not only real estate, but also homeowner's insurance supplemented with a windstorm and hail policy. Right now, that can easily equate to a $1,500 or more kick in the wallet each year...and it kind of negates savings on gasoline as far as most people would be concerned.

I also have trouble buying the evacuation BS that gets thrown around for every coastal transportation project...still I hope it happens and that folks have the political will to stick it out.

That might be true if homebuyers made decisions based on these criteria, but largely, they do not. Decisions are made on Quality of Life issues, or, more succinctly, "want" issues. If they want to live on the beach, and they can afford it, they will do so.

The more likely decision making process involves transit cost and time, relative to other options. Currently, a drive from the island is a 1 1/2 hour ordeal. Gas cost for a 60 mile drive at $3 and 20 mpg, is $9 per trip. If a train cost the same, and saves 30 minutes plus parking costs, many will see the advantage of relaxing on a train versus the stress of driving. On a personal note, I sold a couple of Island lots precisely because there was not even a bus commute to Downtown. I would not make that commute by car on a bet.

Politically, I see a train between the Island and Downtown as one of the easier sells. Galveston sees the value of bringing tourists from Houston. Metro is already studying commuter rail to Clear Lake. Lots of people like the idea of a weekend ride to the Island. It has a better chance than other routes, because more people can envision a use for it. And, 2006 is not 2000. A large percentage of people who dismissed mass transit on principle in the past are now at least considering its potential in high gas price times. Only the hard-core Libertarians are still vocally against it.

As for evacuations, it would have some use in transporting carless evacuees, which Galveston has a higher percentage of. It should not be built for the occasional hurricane evacuation, but it's usefulness during those times cannot be discounted.

[GovernorAggie]

That might be true if homebuyers made decisions based on these criteria, but largely, they do not. Decisions are made on Quality of Life issues, or, more succinctly, "want" issues. If they want to live on the beach, and they can afford it, they will do so.

The more likely decision making process involves transit cost and time, relative to other options. Currently, a drive from the island is a 1 1/2 hour ordeal. Gas cost for a 60 mile drive at $3 and 20 mpg, is $9 per trip. If a train cost the same, and saves 30 minutes plus parking costs, many will see the advantage of relaxing on a train versus the stress of driving. On a personal note, I sold a couple of Island lots precisely because there was not even a bus commute to Downtown. I would not make that commute by car on a bet.

Politically, I see a train between the Island and Downtown as one of the easier sells. Galveston sees the value of bringing tourists from Houston. Metro is already studying commuter rail to Clear Lake. Lots of people like the idea of a weekend ride to the Island. It has a better chance than other routes, because more people can envision a use for it. And, 2006 is not 2000. A large percentage of people who dismissed mass transit on principle in the past are now at least considering its potential in high gas price times. Only the hard-core Libertarians are still vocally against it.

As for evacuations, it would have some use in transporting carless evacuees, which Galveston has a higher percentage of. It should not be built for the occasional hurricane evacuation, but it's usefulness during those times cannot be discounted.

So do you think that Libertarians are more or less in favor of oil controls on gas prices?? Would they argue that gas taxes are the problem with gas prices?

Back on topic, I think that if there can be about 7,000 riders a day that would ride a Galveston-Downtown route, then it is very feasible as long as the railroads cooperate. They have a master lease on the RR bridge down there that is the longest that I have ever heard--999 years! But Galveston County owns the RR.

I wonder how many people from Galveston work in the Clear Lake/Webster/NASA area. If it's not a lot now, it would be a lot with commuter rail, IMO. Coastal suburban life in Clear Lake vs. Coastal (more) Cultural Life in Galveston??

[native_Houstonian]

One other segment of the population that may use the rail to Galveston, esp. if there was any way they could connect to IAH, are the cruise passengers. I only imagine that the cost of a cab rountrip from IAH to Galveston is astronomical.

[TheNiche]

That might be true if homebuyers made decisions based on these criteria, but largely, they do not. Decisions are made on Quality of Life issues, or, more succinctly, "want" issues. If they want to live on the beach, and they can afford it, they will do so.

The more likely decision making process involves transit cost and time, relative to other options. Currently, a drive from the island is a 1 1/2 hour ordeal. Gas cost for a 60 mile drive at $3 and 20 mpg, is $9 per trip. If a train cost the same, and saves 30 minutes plus parking costs, many will see the advantage of relaxing on a train versus the stress of driving. On a personal note, I sold a couple of Island lots precisely because there was not even a bus commute to Downtown. I would not make that commute by car on a bet.

Politically, I see a train between the Island and Downtown as one of the easier sells. Galveston sees the value of bringing tourists from Houston. Metro is already studying commuter rail to Clear Lake. Lots of people like the idea of a weekend ride to the Island. It has a better chance than other routes, because more people can envision a use for it. And, 2006 is not 2000. A large percentage of people who dismissed mass transit on principle in the past are now at least considering its potential in high gas price times. Only the hard-core Libertarians are still vocally against it.

As for evacuations, it would have some use in transporting carless evacuees, which Galveston has a higher percentage of. It should not be built for the occasional hurricane evacuation, but it's usefulness during those times cannot be discounted.

If they want to live on the beach, and they can afford it, they will do so.

Right...you've got the demand vs. affordability problem, and affordability is made somewhat more of a hurdle because insurance rates are high on the island. To clarify, I'm not arguing that the commuter rail wouldn't stimulate demand...that'd be an impossible position to defend. The problem as I see it would simply be that we may have a few years of low ridership (especially on weekdays) before the thing reaches its full potential. And its not like Metro can just reroute a few high-ridership bus routes and fill the thing up so that it suddenly becomes the highest ridership-per-mile commuter rail line in the country, either.

Btw, the initial light rail route only got as much opposition as it did because the line doesn't really go anywhere effectively...it should have been built as part of a system rather than as a starter-line. You'll notice that there's less opposition to the University Line or those that will connect with residential areas, but that is because integrated transit systems make sense and lines that don't effectively connect commercial areas with residential areas don't.

Evacuations out of Galveston are already very well handled. In fact, Galveston is probably among the most prepared cities along the Gulf Coast (that isn't in Florida) to handle evacuations. They use busses, and with good reason. They're relatively cheap, readily available, and do not have to operate along fixed routes. In fact, I'm not sure whether they're Galveston's school busses, but I'd imagine that they'd have to get those off the island anyway, so why not kill two birds with one stone and take some evacuees along for the ride?

[TheNiche]

Back on topic, I think that if there can be about 7,000 riders a day that would ride a Galveston-Downtown route, then it is very feasible as long as the railroads cooperate.

According to the Census, Galveston had a population of 57,355 in 2004. Assume only half of them work (optimistic), so your target commuter population is narrowed to 28,678. Then assume that only a third of them work on the island or very near to it, i.e. La Marque/Texas City (optimistic), so that your target commuter population is now 19,118. In order to meet that 7,000-rider goal, over one third of the target population would have to work in a location that is served by the commuter rail and then they'd have to choose to take it.

A lot of people like having the convenience of a car at work so that they can run errands at lunchtime. For others, it is a necessity that they have their car so that they can make it to business meetings. Far more others just don't work in League City/Clear Lake or Downtown.

[RedScare]

The ridership goes both directions, and for ridership projections, no one cares which direction you are going...it is still a round trip. That being said, anyone who has had the thrill of driving TO Galveston in the morning on a weekday, knows that there are plenty of workers on the Island who live on the Mainland. I don't know that it is enough for 3,500 round trips, but it could be.

FWIW, the Dallas to Fort Worth line was at 2,500 trips daily for awhile. It may be up to around 4,000 now. I don't know that a Galveston line needs 7,000 trips to be considered successful.

[GovernorAggie]

TheNiche,

While I can see some of your assumptions, I think you left some of them out, i.e. the high probability that a commuter line to Galveston won't just have a station in Galveston, but would likely have stations in League City, Clear Lake, etc. where people who also live in those places would/could ride further into downtown Houston and/or other locations.

It's a pipe dream that Galveston alone would generate 7,000 riders. It ain't gonna happen anytime soon. When I say 7,000, I mean the entire service area along the commuter line from Galveston Island to downtown Houston, which could include stations at Galveston, La Marque/Texas City, Dickinson, League City, Clear Lake area, a couple pre-existing park-and-rides along I-45, and downtown. That's a huge service area that's only going to grown in population.

I also called 7,000 riders feasible because other current/planned commuter rail lines in U.S. have/will have this sort of ridership and some have been in place a long time.

Regarding Metro's shuffling buses to the LRT for highest-ridership-in-the-country status, if I'm not mistaken, re-routing the buses to utilize the LRT line was a part of the plan. However, the sheer numbers still outdo projections.

[TheNiche]

TheNiche,

While I can see some of your assumptions, I think you left some of them out, i.e. the high probability that a commuter line to Galveston won't just have a station in Galveston, but would likely have stations in League City, Clear Lake, etc. where people who also live in those places would/could ride further into downtown Houston and/or other locations.

It's a pipe dream that Galveston alone would generate 7,000 riders. It ain't gonna happen anytime soon. When I say 7,000, I mean the entire service area along the commuter line from Galveston Island to downtown Houston, which could include stations at Galveston, La Marque/Texas City, Dickinson, League City, Clear Lake area, a couple pre-existing park-and-rides along I-45, and downtown. That's a huge service area that's only going to grown in population.

I also called 7,000 riders feasible because other current/planned commuter rail lines in U.S. have/will have this sort of ridership and some have been in place a long time.

Regarding Metro's shuffling buses to the LRT for highest-ridership-in-the-country status, if I'm not mistaken, re-routing the buses to utilize the LRT line was a part of the plan. However, the sheer numbers still outdo projections.

I did assume a Clear Lake/League City stop. I can tell you right now, though, that there can't be too many stops or the efficiency of the trip will be severely curtailed, especially in off-peak hours.

My understanding was that Metro would take care of the segment from CBD to Clear Lake and that Galveston would take care of the remainder...so I used 7,000 riders, your figure, as the basis to justify the Galveston connection.

Even if you take into account the round-trip rider, that's still a lot of riders out of the target commuter population. And yes, the service area is growing in size, but that is a long-term trend and only a fraction of it represents people commuting either to the CBD or to Galveston on a daily basis.

I know that re-routing busses to LRT was part of the plan...that was the problem. They did it to quantitatively-justify the route, but if you've ever sponsored a focus group comprised of many low-income Metro riders, they'd have told you that they now have to transfer more frequently and that the routes are less direct than they used to be. Just because it was planned doesn't mean that it was a good plan.

[GovernorAggie]

I did assume a Clear Lake/League City stop. I can tell you right now, though, that there can't be too many stops or the efficiency of the trip will be severely curtailed, especially in off-peak hours.

My understanding was that Metro would take care of the segment from CBD to Clear Lake and that Galveston would take care of the remainder...so I used 7,000 riders, your figure, as the basis to justify the Galveston connection.

Even if you take into account the round-trip rider, that's still a lot of riders out of the target commuter population. And yes, the service area is growing in size, but that is a long-term trend and only a fraction of it represents people commuting either to the CBD or to Galveston on a daily basis.

I know that re-routing busses to LRT was part of the plan...that was the problem. They did it to quantitatively-justify the route, but if you've ever sponsored a focus group comprised of many low-income Metro riders, they'd have told you that they now have to transfer more frequently and that the routes are less direct than they used to be. Just because it was planned doesn't mean that it was a good plan.

What I am saying is that I think that the line could have 7,000 riders total as a line from Galveston to Downtown. Of course, that number, IMO, would be less if it were ended at Clear Lake. If Galveston is putting in $$ on an extension from the Galveston County line to say, Galveston's transit center (mentioned in J.A.S.O.N's article) then I do think that it will be worthwhile.

Also regarding the long-term aspect of the numbers--that's precisely why I think 7,000 could work. No scientific basis for the number--it's just an amount that is not unheard of nationally. I wasn't talking about the moment the facility opens, unless it's in say, 2035. After all, the region is projected to have over 8 million people by then--many of which will be SE Harris and mainland Galveston County residents. I'm sure that 3,500 people can be found for a round trip today in that part of the region, let alone in 30 years.

I don't foresee many people commuting all the way to Galveston in the morning, but I do foresee people commuting from areas within Harris County to Clear Lake and from as far south as Galveston to downtown Houston.

As it stands today, if you commuted from downtown to say, Fairfield on 290 or Katy on 10 or the Woodlands on 45, you could spend 45-75 minutes at least fighting in traffic depending on how reliable it may be that day? A 40+ mile commuter train to Galveston with about 8-10 stations might take 75-80 minute ride at the most, but once you're home, you're looking at the Gulf and enjoying sea breezes. With the exception of the Woodlands, how do the others (Katy/Fairfield) compare? You reduce that time if you go to NASA 1 area or League City to get home. I think enough demand exists for this.

Look at this site. Special event traffic generated 3,000 riders in Galveston County alone--with no connection into downtown Houston. I'm not talking about the 2,800 free riders. I'm talking about the $16 round trip fare-paying travels. Transit likely won't cost $16 roundtrip.

http://www.texasgulfliner.com/overview.htm

[TheNiche]

What I am saying is that I think that the line could have 7,000 riders total as a line from Galveston to Downtown. Of course, that number, IMO, would be less if it were ended at Clear Lake. If Galveston is putting in $$ on an extension from the Galveston County line to say, Galveston's transit center (mentioned in J.A.S.O.N's article) then I do think that it will be worthwhile.

Also regarding the long-term aspect of the numbers--that's precisely why I think 7,000 could work. No scientific basis for the number--it's just an amount that is not unheard of nationally. I wasn't talking about the moment the facility opens, unless it's in say, 2035. After all, the region is projected to have over 8 million people by then--many of which will be SE Harris and mainland Galveston County residents. I'm sure that 3,500 people can be found for a round trip today in that part of the region, let alone in 30 years.

I don't foresee many people commuting all the way to Galveston in the morning, but I do foresee people commuting from areas within Harris County to Clear Lake and from as far south as Galveston to downtown Houston.

As it stands today, if you commuted from downtown to say, Fairfield on 290 or Katy on 10 or the Woodlands on 45, you could spend 45-75 minutes at least fighting in traffic depending on how reliable it may be that day? A 40+ mile commuter train to Galveston with about 8-10 stations might take 75-80 minute ride at the most, but once you're home, you're looking at the Gulf and enjoying sea breezes. With the exception of the Woodlands, how do the others (Katy/Fairfield) compare? You reduce that time if you go to NASA 1 area or League City to get home. I think enough demand exists for this.

Look at this site. Special event traffic generated 3,000 riders in Galveston County alone--with no connection into downtown Houston. I'm not talking about the 2,800 free riders. I'm talking about the $16 round trip fare-paying travels. Transit likely won't cost $16 roundtrip.

http://www.texasgulfliner.com/overview.htm

You know, come to think of it, I work with someone who knows City of Galveston politics pretty well...and from what I've heard from him, I have to change my mind on this issue. Regardless of how bleak the present may seem, if there's anything that Galvestonians seem to have plenty of, it is optimism. Take Mardi Gras for instance--its hardly a solid money maker for the island, but that hasn't kept them from trying for years and years and years. Every year, we're reminded of how low turnout is through GCDN and the Chronicle, yet they keep on doing it. With that in mind, I'm sure that the City of Galveston's local leaders would love to slap their names on this proposal, even if nothing substantial came of it for a decade after implementation.

I'm still doubtful that the Galveston connection is a good idea for weekday service, and the Texas Gulf Liner doesn't really prove anything because it was a special event...that'd be the equivalent of expecting that ridership for the first three days of LRT service in Houston would be representative of the typical day a year from then. And I'd still argue that there'd be a pretty long ramp-up period, but if implemented effectively (only three or four stations), it might just work out in the long run.

[KinkaidAlum]

Commuter rail could make plenty of stops and still be efficient.

I rode the reverse commute rail from Downtown Boston area to Framingham for 3 years. The route went all the way to Worcester, Mass which is about 50 miles West of Boston.

My trip would start at the Back Bay/South End Station (the last stop is South Station) and make stops at

Yawkey (near Fenway Park/Kenmore Square in Boston)

Newtonville in Newton, Mass

West Newton in Newton, Mass

Auburndale in Needham, Mass

3 stops in Wellesley (Well Farms, Well Hills, and Well Square)

2 stops in Natick (Center and West)

Framingham

Each stop takes approzimately 5 minutes. It was still WAY less time than the road route (Mass Pike)

[TheNiche]

Commuter rail could make plenty of stops and still be efficient.

I rode the reverse commute rail from Downtown Boston area to Framingham for 3 years. The route went all the way to Worcester, Mass which is about 50 miles West of Boston.

My trip would start at the Back Bay/South End Station (the last stop is South Station) and make stops at

Yawkey (near Fenway Park/Kenmore Square in Boston)

Newtonville in Newton, Mass

West Newton in Newton, Mass

Auburndale in Needham, Mass

3 stops in Wellesley (Well Farms, Well Hills, and Well Square)

2 stops in Natick (Center and West)

Framingham

Each stop takes approzimately 5 minutes. It was still WAY less time than the road route (Mass Pike)

What was the travel time on the train for the 50-mile distance? What would the same distance be in a car?

[GovernorAggie]

I'm still doubtful that the Galveston connection is a good idea for weekday service, and the Texas Gulf Liner doesn't really prove anything because it was a special event...that'd be the equivalent of expecting that ridership for the first three days of LRT service in Houston would be representative of the typical day a year from then. And I'd still argue that there'd be a pretty long ramp-up period, but if implemented effectively (only three or four stations), it might just work out in the long run.

I agree that special event traffic is not the best forecaster of the future. However, I do think that if anything, it has shown that Galvestonians are not totally averse to rail-based transportation. I also agree that the increase in ridership will be gradual, but I would think that 3-4 stations would be the extent of the reach in Galveston County: Galveston Transit Center, La Marque/Texas City, and maybe 2 stations in League City (which will most likely be the largest city in Galveston County in 2035, IMHO).

[RedScare]

The Trinity Express that runs between Dallas and Fort Worth has nine stops over a roughly 40 mile route. 50 miles from Galveston to Houston could easily accomodate a stop every 5 or 6 miles, or 8 to 10 stops. It would not need to be a 5 minute stop either. It could be accomplished in 1 or 2 minutes.

In Galveston, it could start in the Strand, with a second stop near the new Courthouse complex at 59th. A stop at Texas City, Dickinson, League City and Webster would mean stops every 5 miles. Clear Lake, Ellington and Hobby stops in Harris County, before heading downtown, would mean 7 stops over 50 miles. Not too bad.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

The Trinity Express that runs between Dallas and Fort Worth has nine stops over a roughly 40 mile route. 50 miles from Galveston to Houston could easily accomodate a stop every 5 or 6 miles, or 8 to 10 stops. It would not need to be a 5 minute stop either. It could be accomplished in 1 or 2 minutes.

In Galveston, it could start in the Strand, with a second stop near the new Courthouse complex at 59th. A stop at Texas City, Dickinson, League City and Webster would mean stops every 5 miles. Clear Lake, Ellington and Hobby stops in Harris County, before heading downtown, would mean 7 stops over 50 miles. Not too bad.

This would open up Galveston to people who would normally not go because of the drive and vice versa.

It's been years since I last went to Galveston

[tamtagon]

Trinity Rail Express should run between Galveston and Fort Worth.

[Houston19514]

The Trinity Express that runs between Dallas and Fort Worth has nine stops over a roughly 40 mile route. 50 miles from Galveston to Houston could easily accomodate a stop every 5 or 6 miles, or 8 to 10 stops. It would not need to be a 5 minute stop either. It could be accomplished in 1 or 2 minutes.

In Galveston, it could start in the Strand, with a second stop near the new Courthouse complex at 59th. A stop at Texas City, Dickinson, League City and Webster would mean stops every 5 miles. Clear Lake, Ellington and Hobby stops in Harris County, before heading downtown, would mean 7 stops over 50 miles. Not too bad.

And we should note it takes 1 hour and 5 minutes to travel the 32 miles between downtown Dallas and downtown Ft. Worth. (One thing you have ignored is the deceleration and acceleration time required for each stop. Even if they only stay at the station for 1 or 2 minutes, the total time lost is perhaps at least 5 minutes for each stop.) If a train ran at the same pace from Galveston to downtown Houston, we're talking something like a 1 3/4 hour trip.

[GovernorAggie]

And we should note it takes 1 hour and 5 minutes to travel the 32 miles between downtown Dallas and downtown Ft. Worth. (One thing you have ignored is the deceleration and acceleration time required for each stop. Even if they only stay at the station for 1 or 2 minutes, the total time lost is perhaps at least 5 minutes for each stop.) If a train ran at the same pace from Galveston to downtown Houston, we're talking something like a 1 3/4 hour trip.

Here's the thing with most transit vs. auto time comparisons in the United States. For some reason when people see "85 minutes from one end to the other" the instant reaction is "well I could do better than that in my car and still have my privacy, etc. etc." That could be true, but the problem comes in with the reliability of the travel. Let's say it takes 90 minutes to get from Galveston Transit Center to Houston Intermodal Center. For a downtown worker, it would require a transfer onto the Red Line which at the most would add 10 minutes to their trip. 100 minutes. Sounds like a lot because it is.

If you drive the 60 mph speed limit for the same 50 mile trip, you should take 50 minutes. However, during the peak hour, travel speeds are unlikely to consistently be 60 mph over the course of the 50 miles. Let's say the average travel speed in the peak hour on I-45 is 40 mph. This decreases the speed by 1/3, increasing the normal trip time to approx. 65-70 minutes. Add maybe 10 minutes for the time spet

noodling through streets in Galveston and Houston and getting to your parking space and you have 75-80 minutes. Of work. Of fighting.

Or you could spend that same amount of time reading/resting/surfing the internet (Albuquerque's--yes I said ALBUQUERQUE!--new commuter rail vehicles will have wi-fi access as will Salt Lake City's).

Then again, I've also heard, "well who drives just the speed limit anyway? Most people drive 75-80 mph on the freeway..." That may be true, but they do it because their cars can, not because it's legal and it's not very safe. A lot of commuter trains can travel up to 80-100 mph but don't because of physical, safety, and legal constraints. And then if you use DMUs which has quicker acceleration, you decrease that factor also.

[RedScare]

While all of what Aggie said is true, it still comes down to individual preference and choice. There will always be those that believe commuter travel is somehow beneath them, or some other deal killer. However, there is a growing number of people who realize the benefits of mass transit. From cost savings to stress relief, mass transit is worth it to a certain segment of the population.

The last two years of high gas prices, combined with the growing certainty that they will stay high for awhile, gives this idea added traction. Just five years ago, it was a pipe dream. Now, there is a larger group that would consider using it. Add in the coming glut of retirees (baby boomers start turning 60 next year) and Galveston city leaders and developers must be salivating over the possibilities.

Living in a beach town, while being able to go to big league sports, museums and theatres, PLUS shopping, without getting in a car? What more could an old fart want?

[GovernorAggie]

Living in a beach town, while being able to go to big league sports, museums and theatres, PLUS shopping, without getting in a car? What more could an old fart want?

:lol:

[skwatra]

about ridership going both directions- how many riders are you really going to get that do not work right downtown? i don't know about in Galveston, but for the rest of the stops on 45 its most likely going to be pretty difficult to get to your place of work after getting off the train.

i'll be moving to midtown soon, and i've considered taking the bus to the bay area P&R, but it just doesn't make sense. i would have to take the train downtown, the bus for 30 minutes, then either leave my car down there on the weekdays and drive 10 minutes to work, or take a shuttle to NASA, then a second to my building which would take another 30 minutes.

On the other hand my reverse commute by car is only 23 minutes average.

don't get me wrong, i would love to have it. if it existed when i lived in Clear Lake i would have taken it to go to galveston on the weekends, and UH on the weekdays (if it stopped at Eastwood TC, which it probably wouldn't now that i think about it).

Edited May 11, 2006 by skwatra

[GovernorAggie]

about ridership going both directions- how many riders are you really going to get that do not work right downtown? i don't know about in Galveston, but for the rest of the stops on 45 its most likely going to be pretty difficult to get to your place of work after getting off the train.

i'll be moving to midtown soon, and i've considered taking the bus to the bay area P&R, but it just doesn't make sense. i would have to take the train downtown, the bus for 30 minutes, then either leave my car down there on the weekdays and drive 10 minutes to work, or take a shuttle to NASA, then a second to my building which would take another 30 minutes.

On the other hand my reverse commute by car is only 23 minutes average.

don't get me wrong, i would love to have it. if it existed when i lived in Clear Lake i would have taken it to go to galveston on the weekends, and UH on the weekdays (if it stopped at Eastwood TC, which it probably wouldn't now that i think about it).

From the news article, it looks as if a lot of the reverse commuters could be heading to UTMB in Galveston. It said that most of UTMB's workers live on the mainland. Galveston is much more walkable, so the issue is getting around once down there isn't as big of a problem.

I would also think that there could be some sort of connection to the University LRT line, possibly at a transit center that would serve the TMC as well.

[skwatra]

I guess all the people i know at UTMB are students and they live on the island. My mom did actually start working at the Cruise Terminals, i could see her taking a train if it went down Harborside.

Speaking of, that would be some riders - Hobby to the Cruise Terminals. My mom tells me that she sees people daily coming from all over (US, Canada, Europe, even Asia) to take a cruise that take busses from the airports.

[KinkaidAlum]

The most obvious issue not spoken about yet is the TRAFFIC.

Projections are calling for EIGHT million people in the greater Houston area by 2025. The traffic is already beyond sucking at rush hour on I-45. Imagine it with 3 million more people in the area.

At some point, we're going to realize that clear cutting a one mile wide section of land for roadways simply won't cut it anymore. I give it the 2 years after the "New Katy" opens before people realize that point. Bigger roads just encourage more cars and more development which render those bigger roads obsolete in the long run.

[TheNiche]

New data from the Director of Galveston County EDC, presented in this morning's Envision Houston Region - Texas City event.

Galveston's active daytime population (residents plus employees) is over 80,000 people, with 5 to 7 million visitors per year and an uncertain (but large) number of folks with vacation homes. Two thirds of the employees commute from the mainland, mostly from Galveston County, but some from Harris.

Also, I met this Goodman fellow. I don't personally like him because he seemed to want to run government like a business, whose objective is to increase net worth. He doesn't seem to care very much how that is accomplished, even if it requires violation of property rights (i.e. economic redevelopment by eminent domain). However, he has experience in the matter as he was the first President of Metro.

The City of Galveston seems to have quite a few restrictions on development. According to their guy, they had a team of South Korean investors down there yesterday, but they wanted to build a large mixed-use project comprised of several mid/high rise buildings on multiple blocks, and the City seems to be concerned that it would be a visual blight.

I'm now firmly of the belief that we need a 2nd causeway, but am still uncertain about the train.

Edited May 11, 2006 by TheNiche

[J.A.S.O.N.]

New data from the Director of Galveston County EDC, presented in this morning's Envision Houston Region - Texas City event.

Galveston's active daytime population (residents plus employees) is over 80,000 people, with 5 to 7 million visitors per year and an uncertain (but large) number of folks with vacation homes. Two thirds of the employees commute from the mainland, mostly from Galveston County, but some from Harris.

Also, I met this Goodman fellow. I don't personally like him because he seemed to want to run government like a business, whose objective is to increase net worth. He doesn't seem to care very much how that is accomplished, even if it requires violation of property rights (i.e. economic redevelopment by eminent domain). However, he has experience in the matter as he was the first President of Metro.

The City of Galveston seems to have quite a few restrictions on development. According to their guy, they had a team of South Korean investors down there yesterday, but they wanted to build a large mixed-use project comprised of several mid/high rise buildings on multiple blocks, and the City seems to be concerned that it would be a visual blight.

I'm now firmly of the belief that we need a 2nd causeway, but am still uncertain about the train.

"Visual blight" to our city officials could mean anything. That could be the coolest project ever, but "Galveston" won't ever think outside of the box when it comes to contemporary development. We have what I like to call; "small-time mentality, with big-time real estate".

[SpringTX]

The problem with the potential time savings with a rail line is that it just gets you to and from the train terminals. Most folks have to add a drive from their home to get to the outbound rail station. And then they have to walk or take a cab to get from the disembarking rail station to their ultimate destination. For example, let's say you're headed to the new convention center on the Seawall. You're probably talking about a 10-minute cab ride from the Strand. And then you're without a car while you're there. For example, let's say you want to go out for lunch. Do you take another cab down the Seawall several miles? And then back? Or let's say you want to dash on over to a CVS to get some aspirin. This isn't Manhattan - you don't see a flock of taxis on every block in Galveston.

While parts of Galveston are very walkable (i.e. the Strand), most of the island isn't. For someone living on Jamaica Beach, a rail station in the Strand is going to mean extra time driving and parking there. For a tourist headed down to Galveston for the day, a rail station on the Strand is going to mean maybe hopping on the trolley to get to the Seawall, or taking a cab to get to a beach. A cruise ship passenger landing at Hobby airport would be all set (if there were a rail station at Hobby), but not one landing at Bush airport.

A year ago, some of us on this forum were tossing around the idea of high-speed rail service in the Houston area, like they have in Europe and Japan, where the trains go 200 mph. One of the lines suggested was from Houston to Galveston. I personally always liked that idea.

I have a hard time imagining this project working with a train going 60 mph from the Strand to downtown Houston, and making half a dozen stops along the way. I actually think they had that kind of thing running for many years, back in the earlier part of the 20th century. I am told that folks rode the train down to Galveston on weekends. And I think they finally discontinued it after many years.

Imagine a train running 200 mph between Houston and Galveston. We're talking about a 20 minute trip. That's going to be a time savings for anyone coming and going from anywhere in the vicinity of the rail stations. And time is money. Many folks in the Houston area gladly pay an additional $10,000 or $20,000 for more upscale cars simply because of the comfort, style, and status. Make a high-speed train with roomy, comfortable seats, wi-fi access, and an upscale image. And there will be folks who will pay $5/ticket or even $10/ticket (each way) for that. The upscale suburban commuter buses charge that much and they have solid ridership.

If they can do it in France...

Edited May 12, 2006 by SpringTX

[Gary]

"Visual blight" to our city officials could mean anything. That could be the coolest project ever, but "Galveston" won't ever think outside of the box when it comes to contemporary development. We have what I like to call; "small-time mentality, with big-time real estate".

While the project is cool, I love the way Galveston stay's "unmodern". Don't get me wrong, I love the highrise trend etc, but still think the Island should be careful in how it builds.

I'd hate to see the feeling and culture change.