More Than 500,000 Rally in L.A. for Immigrants' Rights

[nmainguy]

1) De-incentivize the immigrants from bringing families. Cut off access to all schooling, health care, and any other social services to those that cannot prove citizenship or a work visa. If they're dying of a gunshot wound, let them...that's a very good deterrent to coming here illegally.

A few years ago a 5 YO girl was shot in the head by a bullet someone had fired in the air in my neighborhood. 911 was called; the paramedics arrived; they acted quickly and saved the girl's life.

I feel confident they did not sit around and wait for someone to produce proof of citizenship. They simply did their job and saved a life.

Anyone who thinks letting a child-or anyone for that matter-die of a gunshot wound to prove a point...well, you just have to wonder...

[TJones]

News Max...yadda yadda yadda !

Nmain, what in the world does a fake U2 concert have to do with the price of tea in China? You gonna tell me the Washington Post and The New York Times or The Barnacle here, have never had to retract a story, or print an apology for receiving false info. and going with the story anyway ? C'mon, you know better than that. "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now," said Kornblum, in quotes picked up by the Washington Times.You saying that Judge Kornblum DIDN"T say those things before the Committee ?

[nmainguy]

Nmain, what in the world does a fake U2 concert have to do with the price of tea in China? You gonna tell me the Washington Post and The New York Times or The Barnacle here, have never had to retract a story, or print an apology for receiving false info. and going with the story anyway ? C'mon, you know better than that. "If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now," said Kornblum, in quotes picked up by the Washington Times.You saying that Judge Kornblum DIDN"T say those things before the Committee ?

It was a real concert.

Teaming up with the legendary rock group U2 for a one-night only appearance will be Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Penn.).

The thousand-dollar-a-seat concert has been put together by Sean and Ana Wolfington and will take place at the Wachovia Center in Philadelphia in support of Santorum

[nmainguy]

Ok, first I was made to listen to KPFT's 30-minute accusation-without-premeses-fest at 5:30AM for lack of choices, and now I'm hearing words put into the mouths of people that are more sly than to say such things. I consider myself libertarian, but I'm almost starting to feel sorry for the religious republicans out there. All this hate-mongering against such a broad swath of them, and I'm hard-pressed to think of any that really fit the description.

Can you please quote me a republican politician (whose first name is not Pat) that has ever said "Gays will destroy your marraige," "liberals are baby-killing satan-worshipping gay homosexuals," or "you may need to have more guns to protect you from gays". Soundbyte montages where the average clip is no longer than a couple seconds don't count, btw.

nmainguy, and a bunch of other folks out there...you should know who you are...I would appeal to you to please use reason with your accusations. I don't like a lot of the things that republicans or democrats do, which is why I don't tend to vote for either of them, but that doesn't mean that slander is called for.

Ultimately, if you folks want to win people over to your side, its going to take more than badmouthing. Put some teeth on your arguments, and you may have me. As it stands, I'm finding myself increasingly right-leaning, if only because I want to be associated with the people that are scandalous with class as opposed to being scandalous without class.

In the More Than 500,000 Rally in L.A. for Immigrants' Rights you state

"De-incentivize the immigrants from bringing families. Cut off access to all schooling, health care, and any other social services to those that cannot prove citizenship or a work visa. If they're dying of a gunshot wound, let them...that's a very good deterrent to coming here illegally."

For you to appeal to myself and others you term as "...folks out there...you should know who you are..." to use reason...where is the reason that would allow someone to leave another innocent human to die from a gunshot wound just to promote your warped sense of justice? Where is the basis for anyone to take a cold hearted person of your ilk seriously on any subject?

[TheNiche]

In the More Than 500,000 Rally in L.A. for Immigrants' Rights you state For you to appeal to myself and others you term as "...folks out there...you should know who you are..." to use reason...where is the reason that would allow someone to leave another innocent human to die from a gunshot wound just to promote your warped sense of justice? Where is the basis for anyone to take a cold hearted person of your ilk seriously on any subject?

You misunderstand. I'm not advocating that anyone be shot. I'm not advocating that anyone be denied healthcare or basic human rights. You know how people sometimes have to sign liability waivers that say something along the lines of "...you hereby agree to enter the premesis at your own risk. The owner is not held responsible in any way for death, injury, etc. and so on and so forth..." Alternatively "...trespass at your own risk." Those are standard legal contracts that (if worded accurately and precisely) prevent an owner of a tract of land from incurring almost any form of legal or financial liability for those that would trespass. I'm just saying that we need to apply that to the whole country. If you're our guests, then we treat you well. If not, then we won't treat you at all...one way or the other. Sure as hell beats the "Trespassers will be shot" policy, which I do not advocate.

Basically, if someone is here illegally, they've made the choice to bear the risk and THEY will have to face possible consequences rather than inflict those consequences upon an unsuspecting society. I don't see what's so reprehensible about self-responsibility.

Now, can you please do as I asked and quote me a republican politician (whose first name isn't Pat) that has made any of the statements that you accuse them of making?

P.S. If my immigrant policy were implemented, I'm sure that there'd be an instant wave of non-profit hospitals being founded to provide healthcare to illegals...the difference there is that individuals CHOOSE to give money to the cause of caring for illegal aliens, rather than the burden being placed on unwilling masses of taxpayers. I see the current system as little more than theft.

[nmainguy]

You misunderstand. I'm not advocating that anyone be shot. I'm not advocating that anyone be denied healthcare or basic human rights. You know how people sometimes have to sign liability waivers that say something along the lines of "...you hereby agree to enter the premesis at your own risk. The owner is not held responsible in any way for death, injury, etc. and so on and so forth..." Alternatively "...trespass at your own risk." Those are standard legal contracts that (if worded accurately and precisely) prevent an owner of a tract of land from incurring almost any form of legal or financial liability for those that would trespass. I'm just saying that we need to apply that to the whole country. If you're our guests, then we treat you well. If not, then we won't treat you at all...one way or the other. Sure as hell beats the "Trespassers will be shot" policy, which I do not advocate.

Basically, if someone is here illegally, they've made the choice to bear the risk and THEY will have to face possible consequences rather than inflict those consequences upon an unsuspecting society. I don't see what's so reprehensible about self-responsibility.

Now, can you please do as I asked and quote me a republican politician (whose first name isn't Pat) that has made any of the statements that you accuse them of making?

I don't think anyone misunderstands you. Beyond all your twisting and turning what you actually said is "If they're dying of a gunshot wound, let them"

Are you confused as to what that really means?

...and then you ask me to "do as I asked..."

I'll repeat this once more: Where is the basis for anyone to take a cold hearted person of your ilk seriously on any subject?

[TheNiche]

Where is the basis for anyone to take a cold hearted person of your ilk seriously on any subject?

First, I'll try my best to answer your question, but the question is fallacious because it presupposes that I'm cold hearted, and that I belong to some dreaded "ilk". I would submit to you that the most warm-hearted people are those that take personal responsibility for themselves and others, not try to mandate it into law. By mandating a law, you FORCE people who may disagree with you to support your own side. I see that as immoral. If you're bleeding on the street, I'll be the first one to try and render aid...but I don't EXPECT anyone else to come and help you. I won't pull out a gun and force a passerby wearing scrubs to give you medical attention, for instance. If they walk past, that's their choice, and I'll respect it...all the while trying to save your life...even if you've already identified me as some inhuman beast belonging to some ficticious "ilk". By the way, to cover ground that I've already touched on, I don't belong to a group. Don't categorize me. I am what I am - nothing more or less. I am not like you, like my parents, like my girlfriend, or like anyone else. I'm very simply TheNiche. Having cleared up those portions of the flawed question, "why should you take me seriously?" I don't really have an answer to that. I'm not quite sure why I should take you or anyone else on this board or in my life seriously...I just do...to get by, I suppose. Its just something that TheNiche does. You don't have to take me seriously. I don't expect that of you, just as I would not expect for you to come to my aid were I bleeding. I'd like that if you did, and would extend my greatest gratittude ...but I won't force you. That would be cold hearted.

Now, going back to the topic at hand, I was talking about governmental policy. There is a difference from what you and I as individuals would do and what I would want an on-duty government-paid employee of Ben Taub to do. For that matter, private hospitals would be free to take a loss on the guy. Its their choice to make.

And let me get this straight...you don't agree with what I've said in one post, so when I challenge you to back up a premise-less argument in another post, my comment is irrelevant even though it has nothing to do with the issue from the previous post? Sounds to me like someone's throwing out a Red Herring.

How about this arrangement from now on: when I make a seemingly-outrageous comment, you call me out on it and I explain my rationale in full detail. I'll do the same when you make one, and you can then explain in full detail. And if either of our arguments doesn't make sense, we either clarify again or admit that we were mistaken. Fair enough?

[TJones]

TheNiche, the only problem I have with your "rationale" is that you would NOT let someone who with a gunshot wound to the head, get the help they need simply because they are not a citizen of the country they are shot in. Does that hold true for you if you go over to Mexico without a passport ? Would you want me to let the good doctor step over you instead of help you because he just didn't FEEL like it today. Would you respect him for that ? I tell you what I would do. I would tell the Doctor that HE is gonna need a Doctor for himself, if he doesn't start helping me, to help you. You are gonna sit there and write that 6 year old children don't have the right to medical attention because they aren't Americans and that a 6 yr. old has the sensiblity to know they were taking their chances when they crossed the border in the middle of the night with their family ? Or, am I reading your post wrong ?

[TheNiche]

TheNiche, the only problem I have with your "rationale" is that you would NOT let someone who with a gunshot wound to the head, get the help they need simply because they are not a citizen of the country they are shot in. Does that hold true for you if you go over to Mexico without a passport ? Would you want me to let the good doctor step over you instead of help you because he just didn't FEEL like it today. Would you respect him for that ? I tell you what I would do. I would tell the Doctor that HE is gonna need a Doctor for himself, if he doesn't start helping me, to help you. You are gonna sit there and write that 6 year old children don't have the right to medical attention because they aren't Americans and that a 6 yr. old has the sensiblity to know they were taking their chances when they crossed the border in the middle of the night with their family ? Or, am I reading your post wrong ?

Firstly, Editor, could you please move this dialogue over to the correct thread? Thanks.

Ok, now if you go back and read my original proposal, I think that its pretty clear that I'm not against immigration...I'm just against it not being processed through the law enforcement bureaucracy. That's why I like the idea of basically letting in as many people as can find work/afford to live here, and temporary visitors are fine as long as they obey the laws and everything. As I'd said in this thread, if you're a guest, then everything is at your disposal. If you are not a guest, bearing in mind that visas and things in my plan would be so easy to get, then you're going to raise eyebrows right off the bat. As a means of discouraging unnecessarily illegal travel, I propose that all public services be denied anyone without the right paperwork.

That's all. It's a deterrent against breaking the law...because the law is so otherwise lenient that there's really no reason not to go through the proper channels.

As far as the stranger-not-helping-while-I-bleed thing goes, I'm ok with people not helping me. It's appreciated, but if they don't want to, that's their perrogative.

[Subdude]

Firstly, Editor, could you please move this dialogue over to the correct thread? Thanks.

Done.

[Jeebus]

TheNiche, the only problem I have with your "rationale" is that you would NOT let someone who with a gunshot wound to the head, get the help they need simply because they are not a citizen of the country they are shot in.

TJ, the people Niche would deny medical attention are very same you just got finished shooting!

Send all "illegal aliens" currently in our prison system, back across the border, not just across to Nueva Laredo, I am talking about the jungles of Brazil or Columbia, if they try to cross our border again and are caught in our country, they will be shot on sight.

[TJones]

TJ, the people Niche would deny medical attention are very same you just got finished shooting!

Jeebus, those are the convicted serial rapists and child molesters and murderous criminals I am talking about. I will stand by that statement, no help for them. He is referring to the ones who are here just to work and support a family. There IS a difference.

[lwood]

I'm not going to sugar-coat my opinion. We've got too many of them, they're uneducated and show very little interest in education, have high dropout rates and end up bringing down schools wherever they go, they turn neighborhoods into ugly barrios with a potential for gang activity, have high birth rates and, pay no income tax and take jobs away from legal Americans. Is this what we want for our city and country? Are we all too afraid to speak up for fear of being branded "racist"?

So now they've got a taste of power and want to stop the American government from stabilizing the flood at the border. Am I the only one that thinks this is fairly outrageous?

"There has never been this kind of mobilization in the immigrant community ever," said Joshua Hoyt, executive director of the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights. "They have kicked the sleeping giant. It's the beginning of a massive immigrant civil rights struggle."

L.A. Times article.

Legal immigration is good. I'm not sure I understand why the illegals are complaining. If they don't commit a crime, they are employed and they speak English they can become a citizen in 11 years.

[TheNiche]

Jeebus, those are the convicted serial rapists and child molesters and murderous criminals I am talking about. I will stand by no help for them. He is referring to the ones who are here just to work and support a family. There IS a difference.

No, if they want a job, they're welcome to come and contribute to our economy. I like ambitious people. For that matter, I like tourists and other visitors...why put up legal barriers to entry? If they're our guests, and they've been documented, then they're treated well.

If they're uninvited (and given so few excuses to be uninvited), then the taxpayer 'is not in any way liable in the event of injury, loss of life or limb'...and so on. We're just deincentivizing criminal activity with this policy.

[TJones]

No, if they want a job, they're welcome to come and contribute to our economy. I like ambitious people. For that matter, I like tourists and other visitors...why put up legal barriers to entry? If they're our guests, and they've been documented, then they're treated well.

If they're uninvited (and given so few excuses to be uninvited), then the taxpayer 'is not in any way liable in the event of injury, loss of life or limb'...and so on. We're just deincentivizing criminal activity with this policy.

Now, we are coming to a happy medium.

[TheNiche]

Now, we are coming to a happy medium.

And all it took was a rhetorical fine-tuning...

Btw, TJ, I finally got around to reading your signature text. What'd you do to offend Nancy?

[TJones]

And all it took was a rhetorical fine-tuning...

Btw, TJ, I finally got around to reading your signature text. What'd you do to offend Nancy?

Just using a broad paintbrush, for anyone who wants to jump into the fray here.

[west20th]

Just using a broad paintbrush, for anyone who wants to jump into the fray here.

Well! Shirley you are not calling me Nancy!?

[TJones]

Well! Shirley you are not calling me Nancy!?

I am not gonna fall for the ol' "Airplane" gags.................again.

[nmainguy]

Does anyone have any news regarding a nation wide march maybe this Monday?

[pineda]

(got this by e-mail today:)

Minuteman Civil Defense Corps STOP AMNESTY!

[nmainguy]

I don't need to take a flag to work or anywhere else because I don't need my patriotisim valadated by a flag. So much energy is spent on fake issues like The War on Christmas , last week's DeLay bacchanal War on Christianity and now the fake War on the Flag. Maybe if some of that energy was directed towards removing the people that are in control of our nation and replacing them with people who actually care about us, we could move on with real solutions and stop all this idiotic babbling of letting illegals bleed to death in the streets and stupid non-controversies like flag waving. I question the wisdom of anyone who is so insecure in their confidence of our nation that they have to run around like Chicken Little.

The sky is not falling.

[Jeebus]

I don't need to take a flag to work or anywhere else because I don't need my patriotisim valadated by a flag.

You go girl.

[RedScare]

I'll be defending the Constitution of the United States from crackpots like Chris Simcox, tomorrow. Sorry, but I won't have time to worship a flag, regardless of its colors.

EDIT: Do you think someone should educate Mr. Simcox on flag etiquette? On second thought, don't bother. It gives me something to trash him over.

[PureAuteur]

I guess to Mexicans, "Mexican" is a race, even though whites consider them to be caucasian (still?)

Mexicans (most) are a mix of two defined races, indian and caucasian, where the scientific ethnic term is mestizo I believe.

Then you have Mexicans that are pure caucasian who are not mixed with Indian tribes, but those are not the ones coming over illegally.

If these Latino kids are rallying around something they know nothing about, it doesn't leave me with a good feeling about the future of this country. Latinos are, whether we like it or not, the future of America. The white race will be a marginal 20% of this country's population in 50 years, and I'm being generous with that number.

Waving the Mexican flag and going to city hall rather than the U.S. capitol shows these teenagers are unfamiliar with the issue, and are simply rallying for Latino Pride and La Raza Power. Someone referred to this in an earlier post, I forget who though. On the radio I heard a woman mention something about anchor babies for the reconquista. Are these the anchor babies growing up now? Are we entering a new 1960s civil rights period? I would think that you'd need to belong in this country legally in order to fight that kind of battle.

NMainGuy- I am having trouble with your position on this issue. I'm not sure exactly where you stand? You are wanting someone to give a real solution, so I'm assuming you believe this to be a problem at least? You may not be supportive of the harshest options, but you at least believe it to be a problem our society is facing, correct? Usually when a white middle class liberal, (which I myself am, to some extent) defends illegal immigration and doesn't think it's doing anything wrong to our society, I point out their hypocrisy for living in a nice well-kept white community/neighborhood that is well secured from any influence of the Mexican barrios, but I believe that you live in the Heights area, if I'm not mistaken, and therefore you live amongst Hispanic communities, and therefore are not a hypocrite by any means, based on your positions.

Sorry if my post appears randomly placed. I'm very tired, especially from reading this thread from start to finish just now in one sitting. There's alot said here! I skipped over alot on page 4 and 5.

[nmainguy]

I'll be defending the Constitution of the United States from crackpots like Chris Simcox, tomorrow. Sorry, but I won't have time to worship a flag, regardless of its colors.

EDIT: Do you think someone should educate Mr. Simcox on flag etiquette? On second thought, don't bother. It gives me something to trash him over.

Well, first off if you took the time to educate Simcox on the meaning of etiquette...I'm not sure he could ever grasp the concept. I won't go any further as I enjoy watching you dissemble piss-ants like Simcox...it is as enjoyable as a night at a good opera-and it's free!

[nmainguy]

I guess to Mexicans, "Mexican" is a race, even though whites consider them to be caucasian (still?)

Mexicans (most) are a mix of two defined races, indian and caucasian, where the scientific ethnic term is mestizo I believe.

Then you have Mexicans that are pure caucasian who are not mixed with Indian tribes, but those are not the ones coming over illegally.

If these Latino kids are rallying around something they know nothing about, it doesn't leave me with a good feeling about the future of this country. Latinos are, whether we like it or not, the future of America. The white race will be a marginal 20% of this country's population in 50 years, and I'm being generous with that number.

Waving the Mexican flag and going to city hall rather than the U.S. capitol shows these teenagers are unfamiliar with the issue, and are simply rallying for Latino Pride and La Raza Power. Someone referred to this in an earlier post, I forget who though. On the radio I heard a woman mention something about anchor babies for the reconquista. Are these the anchor babies growing up now? Are we entering a new 1960s civil rights period? I would think that you'd need to belong in this country legally in order to fight that kind of battle.

NMainGuy- I am having trouble with your position on this issue. I'm not sure exactly where you stand? You are wanting someone to give a real solution, so I'm assuming you believe this to be a problem at least? You may not be supportive of the harshest options, but you at least believe it to be a problem our society is facing, correct? Usually when a white middle class liberal, (which I myself am, to some extent) defends illegal immigration and doesn't think it's doing anything wrong to our society, I point out their hypocrisy for living in a nice well-kept white community/neighborhood that is well secured from any influence of the Mexican barrios, but I believe that you live in the Heights area, if I'm not mistaken, and therefore you live amongst Hispanic communities, and therefore are not a hypocrite by any means, based on your positions.

Sorry if my post appears randomly placed. I'm very tired, especially from reading this thread from start to finish just now in one sitting. There's alot said here! I skipped over alot on page 4 and 5.

I live in Sunset Heights. I am not white. I am a light tan Caucasion . I do believe it is a very real problem when you have some HAIF members like TheNiche who says "If they're dying of a gunshot wound, let them...that's a very good deterrent to coming here illegally." and when called on it attempts to back-track their way out of what they clearly meant. I have legal Hondurans on my right and I suspect illegal Salvadorans on my left. They are fine people with family values and work ethics that anyone would admire. They love the US and display the flags of their native as well as adopted countrys. Do we really want to deport people of such upright character and keep people that advocate letting them die from a gunshot wound? That is a twisted concept I will never embrace although as a free society I know we must tolerate.

So you are right, I want real solutions and I don't know what they are yet; but I know what the wrong solutions are: punishing the sincere immigrants at the whims of the ignorant. Maybe that is a good start at coming to a consensus that eliminates the ignorant and embraces the logical and compassionate.

[pineda]

interesting training manual or "SOP" for the Minutemen...

[west20th]

So much energy is spent on fake issues like The War on Christmas ,

Don't forget the "war on Easter". I saw it on bill O'Reilly's show. must be true. It's not called the "No spin zone" for nothing.

[nmainguy]

Don't forget the "war on Easter". I saw it on bill O'Reilly's show. must be true. It's not called the "No spin zone" for nothing.

DAMN! Now there's a War on Easter? I guess if O'Really spins it then it must be so.