Information on the old Houston Subway System That Was Cancled in the 70's

[citykid09]

Does anyone here have any information, renderings, etc, about the old subway system in Houston that was approved, but the mayor had it stoped back in the 70s early 80s.

Here is some info on how Dallas' DART would have been. I personally like the look of the Dallas plan from back then. It was a better plan then the light rail.

Source: http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=2412

http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=323885&page=2

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Edited March 7, 2006 by citykid09

[Guest Plastic]

Houston getting a subway,truely wasteful. The only cities that have subways are older Northeastern cities.

It would be too exspensive and too much labor to build a subway in just Downtown Housotn. The should perhaps build an underground portion for the light rail if a Grand Central Terminal ever gets built Downtown.

Buses and commuter tains could be caught at and above ground and the light rail would be underground.

[citykid09]

Houston getting a subway,truely wasteful. The only cities that have subways are older Northeastern cities.

Thats not true, Atlanta has a Subway, and Dallas has some of its rail system underground, also, Dallas is also about to add on to there Subway.

[nmainguy]

Houston getting a subway,truely wasteful. The only cities that have subways are older Northeastern cities.

...and Atlanta, Paris, Mexico City, London, San Francisco, Moscow, LA, Beijing, Saint Petersburg, Russia...the list just goes on and on and on, Plastic.

OPPS! I forgot Amsterdam-talk about a flood prone city that makes a subway system work...

[Guest Plastic]

London,Moscow,San Fransisco,and Bejing I could see getting one.

It would have to be in cities where a subway system is already in place.

Houston has tunnels and undergroud parking garages init's downtown. SO any subway system would have to be extra deep.

[RedScare]

Does anyone here have any information, renderings, etc, about the old subway system in Houston that was approved, but the mayor had it stoped back in the 70s early 80s.

There was no subway approved in the 70s or 80s. The referendum that created METRO passed in 1978. In 1979, METRO began operation. In 1981, voters defeated a $1.3 billion heavy rail proposal that would have run from downtown to Northline. It was seen as ridiculously expensive, $100,000 per mile in 1981 dollars.

Later, voters defeated a monorail loop that would connected downtown, Greenway and the Galleria. It was seen as a total gift to the developers of Greenway and Galleria, with little for the citizens.

In the 90s, Mayor Lanier transferred millions of METRO dollars to the city for hiring extra police officers, effectively ending METRO's ability to fund rail transit.

The mayor in the 80s, Kathy Whitmire, was a big rail supporter.

[fewellman]

Houston sucks. we are so far behind every other major city in the world is sad. we have a crap mass transit system and a stupid future plan with light rail. why cant houston ever step up and do anything big. do something revolutionary or at least get a subway or monorail system. houston can have a subway system if people would just stop being stupid and let it happen. i know every body likes there car, i love mine. but the fact is it would be much more convinient to hop on a train from sugar land and get to the gallaria in 10 min without traffic. Or go out to the bars on the weekend without haveing to worry about drinking and driving. there are so many benifits and houstonians are to stupid to do anything about it.

[desirous]

Houston sucks. we are so far behind every other major city in the world is sad. we have a crap mass transit system and a stupid future plan with light rail. why cant houston ever step up and do anything big. do something revolutionary or at least get a subway or monorail system. houston can have a subway system if people would just stop being stupid and let it happen. i know every body likes there car, i love mine. but the fact is it would be much more convinient to hop on a train from sugar land and get to the gallaria in 10 min without traffic. Or go out to the bars on the weekend without haveing to worry about drinking and driving. there are so many benifits and houstonians are to stupid to do anything about it.

We're building the world's widest freeway - that counts, right?

Houston needs commuter rail, but that does not have to be underground. Pedestrian-oriented rail requires more density, and even central Dallas is denser.

[dalparadise]

...and Atlanta, Paris, Mexico City, London, San Francisco, Moscow, LA, Beijing, Saint Petersburg, Russia...the list just goes on and on and on, Plastic.

OPPS! I forgot Amsterdam-talk about a flood prone city that makes a subway system work...

Plastic -- please note that the cities NMain lists ALREADY have extensive subway systems. In fact, SF may have the best, behind NY and London.

One point, however -- Amsterdam makes light rail and commuter rail work very well, but really doesn't have much of a subway:

The metro system in Amsterdam is a combination of full metro and rapid trams (sneltram) running mainly on the surface. Except for the tram tunnel on line 26, only 3.5 km of all metro routes run underground in the city centre between Centraal Station and Amstel. Lines 51, 53 and 54 share tracks between Centraal Station and Spaklerweg. Large parts of the metro network run parallel to NS mainline rail lines and cross-platform interchange is provided at Amstel, Duivendrecht (north-south) and Bijlmer, whereas Sloterdijk, Lelylaan, Zuid, RAI and Diemen Zuid railway stations lie adjacent to the corresponding metro stations.

[editor]

Houston getting a subway,truely wasteful. The only cities that have subways are older Northeastern cities.

Yeah. Like Dallas. And Los Angeles. And Atlanta. And San Diego. And San Francisco. And Vancouver. And Saint Louis. And Mexico City. All those damned old northeastern cities.

London,Moscow,San Fransisco,and Bejing I could see getting one.

It would have to be in cities where a subway system is already in place.

Houston has tunnels and undergroud parking garages init's downtown. SO any subway system would have to be extra deep.

So, what's your point? A Houston subway might have to be 50 feet below the surface? Big deal. Some of the Tokyo subways are hundreds and hundreds of feet below the surface. I remember coming up from the Tsukiji station took almost 15 minutes ascending the elevator. And there was another subway line deeper than the one I came in on.

Later, voters defeated a monorail loop that would connected downtown, Greenway and the Galleria. It was seen as a total gift to the developers of Greenway and Galleria, with little for the citizens.

I wonder how many of those people who voted against it get stuck in traffic on 610, 59, Westheimer, or Richmond on any given day.

[RedScare]

I wonder how many of those people who voted against it get stuck in traffic on 610, 59, Westheimer, or Richmond on any given day.

Probably all of them. This sounds like a swipe at voters for not approving the line, but I am quite sure that if you were around Houston when this was proposed, you would have agreed that it was a totally inneffective solution. It really did not solve anything. In Houston's case, the wait may have been worth it, since the first two proposals were so bad.

Hey, Plastic. The residents of Moscow are glad you could see them getting a subway. Especially, since theirs is the busiest subway in the world. Their 9 million passengers a day are triple NYC's.

[editor]

Probably all of them. This sounds like a swipe at voters for not approving the line,

Yep. That's exactly what it was.

but I am quite sure that if you were around Houston when this was proposed, you would have agreed that it was a totally inneffective solution. It really did not solve anything. In Houston's case, the wait may have been worth it, since the first two proposals were so bad.

You're right -- I didn't see the proposal. But I probably could have seen at least a little into the future to know that when you're bleeding, a band-aid is better than nothing.

[RedScare]

Yep. That's exactly what it was.

You're right -- I didn't see the proposal. But I probably could have seen at least a little into the future to know that when you're bleeding, a band-aid is better than nothing.

I would agree, except that both proposals were not even band aids. They were extraordinarily overpriced boondoggles. The monorail was simply a Disney type very low capacity tram to be built just for Gerald Hines. It was even worse than the original heavy rail system. And it would not have the ability to be expanded. It was terribly designed.

After the defeat, METRO started the Park & Ride system that is very successful. They are now installing a much more functional rail. A step backward can hardly be described as better than nothing.

[VelvetJ]

After the defeat, METRO started the Park & Ride system that is very successful. They are now installing a much more functional rail. A step backward can hardly be described as better than nothing.

I'm not so sure about that statement Redscare. If I'm not mistaken, Metro already had Park & Rides in place before that Monorail proposal was killed. It may not have been as extensive as it is today but it did indeed already exist.

Also, it wasn't just that Houston voters thought the monorail proposal was a bad boondoggle, they were convinced rail was a mistake all together. If they thought that the monorail plan was a mistake, they would have just rejected that and called for a completely new design with a rail route that made more sense to them or whatever would have made them happy. Light rail, heavy rail, subway, or even hang-gliders could have all been put on the table if Houstonians were THAT unhappy with the monorail proposal. But that didn't happen. In fact, Bob Lanier ( a developer) did not run on killing monorail, he ran on killing RAIL itself. And that's what he did. So Houston voters deserve the swipe Mr. Editor swung at them. And for me personally, at this point as you can already probably guess, there is nothing that anyone can say that will convince me that Houston waiting so long to implement rail in this city was a good idea.

*Note* Please do not interpret my words as saying our current mostly bus system is a piece of crap or that it is the worst in the nation because that is NOT what I am inferring by stating Houston should have had rail before now. I actually am very proud of our system, but that does not mean I don't feel Houston need or should have had more rail by now.

[midtown 4.2]

Hey, Plastic. The residents of Moscow are glad you could see them getting a subway. Especially, since theirs is the busiest subway in the world. Their 9 million passengers a day are triple NYC's.

Yeah, Moscow has the heaviest subway ridership in the world, not because it's a far superior form of transportation, nor is their system the best, most efficient, convienient, etc, etc. It's because the former Communist system kept the vast majority of the population in a state of servitude, with no way to escape from it. If you were lucky enough to be granted the privelege of owning a car, the only choice was a Volga . . . a vehicle that makes the Yugo look like a model of reliability. Simply put, they had no other form of transportation available to them . . . other than walking.

I'm not anti mass-transportation, I actually wouldn't mind seeing such a system in Houston one day; I just had to point out the "other half of the story" regarding Moscow's subway system.

By the way, the Moscow system was also touted as being the cleanest in the world . . . you know why? Because, the Communists were extremely "efficient" at dealing with those "subversive" elements of society . . . you know, the ones that dare to toss their ticket stub on the ground. . . .and you thought Singapore was harsh on gum chewers . . .

[RedScare]

I'm not so sure about that statement Redscare. If I'm not mistaken, Metro already had Park & Rides in place before that Monorail proposal was killed. It may not have been as extensive as it is today but it did indeed already exist.

You are correct, Velvet. According to this article, Park & Ride service was started in 1979, with a demonstration project in the works prior to that.

http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/docs/Houston/chapter2.htm

Contraflow service started in 1979, with one lane from the opposite freeway direction coned off for the contraflow. (Anyone remember the trucks full of yellow cones, with a worker placing the cones every morning and afternoon?) A Katy contraflow was added later. The Park & Ride lots were mostly church or shopping center lots. After METRO's second rail defeat in 1983, massive construction of the Park & Ride system occurred in 1985, and continues to this day.

[713 To 214]

anyone know what the total cost of Metro's park and ride is from inception to date? AND then, how that compares, percentage-wise, to what present-day costs are for Metro's light rail line?

[editor]

Yeah, Moscow has the heaviest subway ridership in the world, not because it's a far superior form of transportation, nor is their system the best, most efficient, convienient, etc, etc. It's because the former Communist system kept the vast majority of the population in a state of servitude, with no way to escape from it. If you were lucky enough to be granted the privelege of owning a car, the only choice was a Volga . . . a vehicle that makes the Yugo look like a model of reliability.

Wow. That's quite an imagination you have there. While it's true that under Communist rule the people were poor, that's not the main reason they took the subway. It's just a different mentality. Just like Houstonaians have a different mentality that compels them to reach for their car keys when they want to go across the street.

Even back in the bad old days, Moscow's subway system was heralded around the world as one of the best. The reason was because it was run in a Communist philosphy -- meaning they poured tons and tons of money into the subway system because it was for the common good. Back then at least, a Moscow subway could be favorably compared to any mansion in America. I don't know if that still holds true.

As for the car, I think you're thinking of the Lada, which was a piece of crap on wheels. The Volga were their form of luxury cars, though they were just mediocre by Western standards.

Moscow subway pictures:

[midtown 4.2]

Ed, my statement was based on facts . . . no imagination involved here. Under Communist rule, the vast majority of the population did not / could not own cars. The public transportation system was the ONLY way to commute across town. . . thus the high ridership figures.

I agree that the subway stations are opulent, I've seen them myself (during the bad old days). Each one was designed to look completely different from the next. Looks like you were there post-Communism.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Ed, my statement was based on facts . . . no imagination involved here. Under Communist rule, the vast majority of the population did not / could not own cars. The public transportation system was the ONLY way to commute across town. . . thus the high ridership figures.

I agree that the subway stations are opulent, I've seen them myself (during the bad old days). Each one was designed to look completely different from the next. Looks like you were there post-Communism.

The subway system in Moscow is very impressive, at least the buildings were. Those trains were not the most reliable to be had either. I spent 3 months there on a student exchange program during the old days Nothing makes you love America anymore than that...........