Howard Dean Caught With Hand In The Cookie Jar !

[TJones]

Any of you libs care to explain why Howard Dean has regular conversations with Abrahmoff, and some Dems took a little campaign contribution of about $60k when Howard kept denying it happened ?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/9/90733.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/...0005.shtml?s=ic

Edited February 10, 2006 by TJones

[westguy]

That newsmax thing is a month old now and I can't find anything else corroborating it. Its disingenuous to blame Democrats for accepting money from Indian clients of Abramoff's because they didn't receive any from his firm which actively worked to swindle its clients. Sometimes Republicans will throw accusations out there in hopes that they will tarnish everyone. Unfortunately it usually works.

[RedScare]

As is the norm for newsmax, they leave out half of the story. This is, in fact, a month old, so my recollection may be slightly off. But, as I remember the story, some Democrats received some donations from the Indian tribes, while Republicans received a lot of money from the tribes. However, Dean's claim, supported by NEC records, is that NO Democrat received money from Abramoff HIMSELF.

Whether that makes a difference may be a topic of debate, but the literal statement made by Dean appears to be true. The more interesting story may be Bush's claim that he did not know Abramoff. Kind of reminds me of Bush's claims not to know "Kenny Boy" a few years back. Again, this may not matter either, but it is amusing to watch politicians' reactions to a former associate who has suddenly become radioactive.

[nmainguy]

Any of you libs care to explain why Howard Dean has regular conversations with Abrahmoff, and some Dems took a little campaign contribution of about $60k when Howard kept denying it happened ?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/9/90733.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/...0005.shtml?s=ic

OK, Teej. In the spirit of you and I keeping each other on the straight and narrow, I would expect you to call me out if I should ever use anything a Howard Dean might or might not say.

Having said that, I have more faith in you that you would ever give a bitter, right-wing internet rag like NewsMax the time of day. The only thing they are consistant at is distortion.

Here's an example about a US Senator I frequently disagree with but deeply respect:

Limbaugh repeated NewsMax.com's false claim that McCain "admitted that torture worked on him"

Summary: Rush Limbaugh twice falsely claimed that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) had "admitted that torture worked on him" during his five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam. The false assertion originated in a NewsMax.com article and is not supported by McCain's version of events.

On the December 6 and 8 broadcasts of his nationally syndicated radio show, Rush Limbaugh falsely claimed that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) had "admitted that torture worked on him" during his five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam. By making this claim, Limbaugh clearly intended to undermine McCain's vocal opposition to the Bush administration's policies regarding the treatment of suspected terrorists. But this assertion, which originated in a November 29 article on the conservative news website NewsMax.com, is not supported by McCain's version of events. While McCain has acknowledged that he gave his captors some information beyond his name, rank, and serial number, he has also repeatedly said that he divulged "no useful information," and he has described in detail the considerable amount of false information that he instead provided.

In response to widespread allegations of abusive interrogation tactics employed by U.S. forces, McCain recently proposed an amendment to clarify what techniques are permissible. The measure, which the Senate passed by a vote of 90-9, would limit all Department of Defense (DOD) interrogations to techniques listed in the Army Field Manual and prohibit "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment" against any "individual in the custody or under the physical control of the [u.S.]government." While the White House has strongly opposed any such restrictions, McCain has defended his measure by arguing that the use of torture tarnishes the U.S. image and asserting that such techniques "produce bad intelligence" anyway.

On November 29, NewsMax published an article headlined "John McCain: Torture Worked on Me," which claimed that McCain's experiences as a victim of torture as he has described them contradict his oft-repeated assertion that torture fails to produce actionable intelligence:

Nearly forty years ago, however -- when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp -- some of the same techniques were used on him. And -- as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice -- the torture worked!

That McCain broke under torture doesn't make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he's wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don't work.

As evidence, the article cited two of McCain's recollections from his time as a prisoner of war in which he purportedly "broke under physical pressure." In its first example, the NewsMax article cited a passage in McCain's autobiography, Faith of My Fathers (Random House, August 1999), in which he describes his violation of the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War, which states that POWs are allowed to "give name, rank, service number and date of birth" and requires them to "evade answering further questions":

In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi -- and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.

"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."

The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."

Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."

But while the NewsMax article included McCain's acknowledgement that the information he provided "was of no real use" to his captors, it excluded a great deal of additional detail included in his autobiography regarding the full nature of the information he "gave up." For example, McCain described how the interrogators pressed for more "useful" intelligence after he identified his ship, squadron, and target. In response, he provided them with only false information:

Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant. Pressed for more useful information, I gave the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line, and said they were members of my squadron.

[sorry for the long paste there but I thought the example was usefull to explain where these people are coming from.]

While I would hate to be accused of being a Packers fan, I would find it even more despicable to be defamed by a self proclaimed "family values", multi-divorced, doctor-shopping, drug addicted talk show host sponsored by NewsMax when all I did was endure 5 years of being periodicly hung from the rafters of a rat-infested prison cell by my broken arms.

If we want to get serious about the slime on both sides of the aisle in D.C., let's keep it focused by keeping the "conservative" NewsMax and their "liberal"counterparts of the world out of the mix.

I'm just sick of the posers on both sides of it.

[YIKES MAMA!!!...nmainguy at the end of his rope!!!!]

Edited February 10, 2006 by nmainguy

[DJ V Lawrence]

Any of you libs care to explain why Howard Dean has regular conversations with Abrahmoff, and some Dems took a little campaign contribution of about $60k when Howard kept denying it happened ?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/9/90733.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/...0005.shtml?s=ic

HEYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

(insert Howard Dean scream picture here)

By the way, this has nothing to do with the $60K. I make and produce hip-hop, house, and trance tracks, and just wanted to say that Howard Dean's scream is sometimes sampled in my Hip-Hop tracks and remixes. Gets the club hyped. I would like to request that conservatives and liberals come together and scream more often as Howard Dean did that faithful day in Iowa. Very helpful to beatmakers such as myself

Edited February 10, 2006 by DJ V Lawrence

[TJones]

SO Hillary's claims of donating the "tainted" Abrahmoff money is FALSE also ?

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/01/24/...20060124005.cfm

is this a conservative rag also ?

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...06/561rocjb.asp

Edited February 10, 2006 by TJones

[RedScare]

TJ, you're funny. That was a letter to the editor, written by an unknown subscriber. That proves your point?

I'll make a deal with you, though. How about you demand that EVERY politician who took Abramoff money resign, starting with President Bush? I'll support you on that one. We'll see what the final score is on that one.

[west20th]

SO Hillary's claims of donating the "tainted" Abrahmoff money is FALSE also ?

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/01/24/...20060124005.cfm

is this a conservative rag also ?

Who cares. Let's just wait for Abramoff too start singing and let the chips (congressmen) fall as they may.

[TJones]

TJ, you're funny. That was a letter to the editor, written by an unknown subscriber. That proves your point?

I'll make a deal with you, though. How about you demand that EVERY politician who took Abramoff money resign, starting with President Bush? I'll support you on that one. We'll see what the final score is on that one.

Just one of the articles was a letter, thought it was good, sorry it didn't meet with your approval.

I am not asking anyone to resign, It is just the fact that this goes on all the time, the evidence is mounting that it is indeed NOT just a "Republican" scandal, that is what the Dems want everyone to believe, and alot of you are buying it, I am not gonna deny that Republicans took any money, but the flipside is true also, as much as Howard Dean wants to deny it.

Edited February 10, 2006 by TJones

[RedScare]

Throw me some numbers, dude. How many Reps vs. how many Dems? How much money went to Reps vs. how much money went to Dems? Then we can assign a percentage to it. No one ever said it was 100% Repubs, but since they are the ones in power, that's where the lobbyist money goes.

To say otherwise is to be ignorant of the realities of money and politics. Not, to stick up for Dems, who are bought by different groups, but the Republicans swept to power on a platform of integrity. The reasons were Dems doing just this thing when they were in charge. What disgusts me is not just that Republicans are doing what Dems used to do (Dems will do it again if they come back in power), but the hypocritical Republican supporters, who seem to think graft is OK as long as it's their guy.

In other words, tell me how disgusted you are with the 75% Republicans who got the most money, then I'll listen to you say the Dems are bad, too. You haven't done that. You started with the small fish and ignored the big ones.

[TJones]

http://www.capitaleye.org/abramoff_recips.asp?sort=N

Here ya go, Jack himself, and all the people he represented. These guys were even nice enough to take the some Indian Casinos contributions out of it, so imagine what the numbers would be then.

Now, how disgusted are you ?

You bet I think it is disgusting, Its the world we live in, money corrupts, always has always will, you know that. What I find MORE disgusting is the fact that when you are caught, might as well go ahead and admit, instead of digging the hole deeper for yourself, then having to come back and say, "Well, in the literal sense, I was right. "

Edited February 10, 2006 by TJones

[west20th]

Just one of the articles was a letter, thought it was good, sorry it didn't meet with your approval.

I am not asking anyone to resign, It is just the fact that this goes on all the time, the evidence is mounting that it is indeed NOT just a "Republican" scandal, that is what the Dems want everyone to believe, and alot of you are buying it, I am not gonna deny that Republicans took any money, but the flipside is true also, as much as Howard Dean wants to deny it.

Ah the "everyone does it defense". If there are Dems that did something illegal in regards to Abramoff do you think they will get off and only the GOP will be prosecuted? I don't think so. Let this play out in court and see who gets caught up in it. I agree w/Redscare. I'll bet more Republicans end up in orange jumpsuits.

An aside, your favorite, John Kerry has proposed a bill that all congressmen and senators caught and convicted of any wrongdoing will lose all pension and bennies. It is amazing that his already isn't the case. Do you think he'll get bi-partisan support on this?

[TJones]

Ah the "everyone does it defense". If there are Dems that did something illegal in regards to Abramoff do you think they will get off and only the GOP will be prosecuted? I don't think so. Let this play out in court and see who gets caught up in it. I agree w/Redscare. I'll bet more Republicans end up in orange jumpsuits.

An aside, your favorite, John Kerry has proposed a bill that all congressmen and senators caught and convicted of any wrongdoing will lose all pension and bennies. It is amazing that his already isn't the case. Do you think he'll get bi-partisan support on this?

That's not the point of this thread west. The point is that Howard Dean is a "boob"! He is being set up by his own party to take a fall, I wonder if he believes his own hype ? He is trying to spin something that is unspinnable, everything is black and white on this, the connections are there, he needs to go ahead and deal with it.

http://www.alphapatriot.com/home/archives/...ng_nonsense.php

As far as Kerry's new bill, if it were to pass, then we would have no one left on the senate floor. Good Luck with that one Mr. Heinz, I mean Kerry. ( I still love your Ketchup though.)

Edited February 10, 2006 by TJones

[west20th]

That's not the point of this thread west. The point is that Howard Dean is a "boob"! He is being set up by his own party to take a fall, I wonder if he believes his own hype ? He is trying to spin something that is unspinnable, everything is black and white on this, the connections are there, he needs to go ahead and deal with it.

Yes Howard is a boob. But what he is saying is that no Dems took money DIRECTLY from Abramoff only from his clients. A technicality but still a provable point. But, as usual, you are trying to re-direct scrutiny away from the main issue. Dems received money (indirectly) from Abramoff. So?

I went back and read your link. Like I said before. So what. Only Dem organizations took cash. No Dems did directly. Anyway, let Abramoff sing and let the guilty pay. Republican or Democrat.

Edited February 10, 2006 by west20th

[TJones]

Yes Howard is a boob. But what he is saying is that no Dems took money DIRECTLY from Abramoff only from his clients. A technicality but still a provable point. But, as usual, you are trying to re-direct scrutiny away from the main issue. Dems recieved money (indirectly) from Abramoff. So?

So, you would buy into the fact that the Dem. Sens had no clue that these entities that donated said funds were being represented by Abramoff, please tell me you are NOT that naive. Oh, and there were some Dems that took money directly, go read the last article I pasted for ya.

Edited February 10, 2006 by TJones

[RedScare]

I'm frankly more interested in what that money BOUGHT, not who got it. $10,000 to a legislator that got no special favors means little to me. $1,000 to a legislator that changed a vote means a LOT to me.

I am not philosophically opposed to contributing money to support a candidate who believes in the issues you think are important. It is when strings are attached, or when so much money is contributed that a legislator feels obligated to vote for the contributor's projects, that I get steamed.

There are dozens of legislators on both sides of the aisle that got money from Abramoff or his clients. It is the 15 or 20 that did something in return for the money that I'm concerned with. Granted, Abby hasn't sung yet, but indications are that most of that 15 or 20 will be Republicans, with a smaller number of Democrats.

And I give the middle finger to all of them.

[west20th]

So, you would buy into the fact that the Dem. Sens had no clue that these entities that donated said funds were being represented by Abramoff, please tell me you are NOT that naive. Oh, and there were some Dems that took money directly, go read the last article I pasted for ya.

OK. I'll agree with you Howard is a boob and the dems would be better served w/someone else in his position. And, I don't agree this is true, but if he was wrong about Dems taking money directly from Abramoff. So what? You are nitpicking. Dean's boobieness pales against the underlying issue that our government is corrupt and something needs to be done. Our politicians are selling us down the river and your worried about Dean being an idiot.

[TJones]

OK. I'll agree with you Howard is a boob and the dems would be better served w/someone else in his position. And, I don't agree this is true, but if he was wrong about Dems taking money directly from Abramoff. So what? You are nitpicking. Dean's boobieness pales against the underlying issue that our government is corrupt and something needs to be done. Our politicians are selling us down the river and your worried about Dean being an idiot.

No sir, I am worried about Dean being the "voice" for the Dem party trying to act like they have no connection to this man, and that the Republicans are all a bunch of evil-doers, (which we are, but don't tell anybody > ). Someone needs to pull Dean to the side and tell him to get his head out of his arse, because they are right in the mix of it also.

Edited February 10, 2006 by TJones

[west20th]

No sir, I am worried about Dean being the "voice" for the Dem party trying to act like they have no connection to this man, and that the Republicans are all a bunch of evil-doers, (which we are, but don't tell anybody > ). Someone needs to pull Dean to the side and tell him to get his head out of his arse, because they are right in the mix of it also.

That's politics. What do you expect him to say. "we're as crooked as the GOP"? He is going to spin this to favor the Democrats. In the end all that matters is who did what illeagal and that they pay for it.

[TJones]

Now, you are getting the point of my thread. I knew you'd come around.

[west20th]

Now, you are getting the point of my thread. I knew you'd come around.

So your point was a politician, Howard Dean, sometimes may play fast and loose with the truth? I'm shocked!

[TJones]

So your point was a politician, Howard Dean, sometimes may play fast and loose with the truth? I'm shocked!

Perhaps, like Howard Dean, I spoke out to soon about you. I apparently didn't have all the facts on you.

You always seem to remind me why your Politcal symbol is a Donkey. With friends like you....

[nmainguy]

Alright, men...back to your corners.

The topic's title is:

Howard Dean Caught With Hand In The Cookie Jar !, Taking money from Abrahmoff are we ?

That hasn't been substantiated as yet. NOTHING has been substantiated on either side of the cookie jar.

We're going to have trials staring DeLay and Abrahmoff for sure and probably more. I'm just going to sit back and watch the worm turn. You can read all the NewsMax, Weekly Standard and listen to all of the Al Frankens and Rush Limbaughs of the world and all we'll get is..? All together now: SPIN.

Can't we all come together and just give each other Prada?

Now I'd like to ask Dr. Briget for a prayer

Edited February 11, 2006 by nmainguy

[TJones]

Can't we all come together and just give each other Prada?

Now I'd like to ask Dr. Briget for a prayer

I have heard of "A diamond in the rough.", but a "Rough in the diamond", now that's a new one.

Edited February 10, 2006 by TJones

[nmainguy]

I have heard of "A diamond in the rough.", but a "Rough in the diamond", now that's a new one.

As "Dr." Bridget would say, "Diamonds are a pastor's best friend!"

[Opps...sorry...wrong topic]

[TJones]

Just THAT picture seems to some up EXACTLY who she is. I gotta go post this comment over there.

[west20th]

Perhaps, like Howard Dean, I spoke out to soon about you. I apparently didn't have all the facts on you.

You always seem to remind me why your Politcal symbol is a Donkey. With friends like you....

Aint my political symbol. Anyway it must be hard defending the Repubs these days, right or wrong, no matter what. You're doing a great job Jonesie!

[TJones]

Aint my political symbol. Anyway it must be hard defending the Repubs these days, right or wrong, no matter what. You're doing a great job Jonesie!

You can only go so far with some of these guys though, I ain't throwin myself under the bus for any of them ! You and Red are always there to make sure we have the record straight, I appreciate y'all keeping me on my toes.

[DJ V Lawrence]

How did this Blingister end up on this thread?!

(Blingister:noun; A Minister in need of Bling Bling)

Back to Howard Dean.

HEYAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited February 10, 2006 by DJ V Lawrence

[riverrat]

Any of you libs care to explain why Howard Dean has regular conversations with Abrahmoff, and some Dems took a little campaign contribution of about $60k when Howard kept denying it happened ?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/9/90733.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/...0005.shtml?s=ic

Who cares about any of this crappola...the only thing that matters is....

WHY DOES MR CRABS DENY ME THE RECIEPE TO THE CRABBY PATTY? BUT I WILL GET IT ONE DAY AND THEN YOU'LL SEE SOME R-E-A-L MONEY CHANGING HANDS!!!! GET YOUR CHECKBOOKS OUT, BOYS, DADDY NEEDS A NEW PAIR OF SHOES...WAIT... I DON'T HAVE FEET...ARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!