Southeast Downtown

[Guest danax]

Bounded by roughly Austin to the west, Leeland to the north, St. Joseph to the south and the 59 to the east, also known as the Toyota Center District.

Revitalization has begun with Toyota Center and Root Memorial Park but where is it headed from here? Driving through there today it was obvious that 75% of those businesses would be gone in 10 years. Vacant lots for sale, a boxing gym for lease, U-Haul, Standard Shoes ( a Downtown retail survivor from the 50s?)some kind of bus depot/ice house across from Root,

a run down used car dealership;

, several parking lots, including one of the oldest parking garages in town;

The Toyota Center is nice but entertainment there only takes up a short time period. Minute Maid has at least caused some residential projects to happen nearby. Will we see highrises, bars and restaurants, or will it be just more upgraded parking lots? Maybe a grocery store to serve Midtown and Downtown. Will St. Joe's expand in that direction under new ownership or will the area just end up being a mish-mash of all of the above with no real identity?

[hokieone]

I agree with you Danax. That area is just not seeming to get any attention. I know the expectation was that with the new arena and minute maid, that side would become a gold mine. I can't stand that when you come into downtown off of 45 from the South, that is the first thing you see. The best hope I think is that, as you have discussed before, is for the east side residential part near st charles, polk, etc.'s growth to push all the way up to 59 and then eventually over. I would love to see mid rise rental/ condo properties, but then again what part of downtown does that not hold true for? If anything, it would be nice for it to develop so that the first impressions of downtown are not what you described already. I agree we don't need to make downtown into disney world, but pretty much anything is an improvement over abandoned buildings.

Kind of off topic, what would most people say is the reason these parts of downtown got to be the way they are? In most cities, yes there is usually not nice parts close to the urban core, but the land is typically some of the most valuable. Would everyone blame the oil recession? Suburb flight? City Council? I know it takes time going forward, but I've always wondered how parts around downtown were just completely let to go the way they did. At some point those abandoned buildings were occupied, so what was the peak when they all were busy and then what caused them all to fail? Just curious on people's opinions.

[The Great Hizzy!]

It seems as if the prospects for that section of DT is more dependent on the expansion of the St. Joseph's complex more than Toyota Center. Granted, TC has only been around for a couple of years, but you would've expected to hear of something being planned near it if it was/is a catalyst for growth in that area. At least MMP inspired some building renewals, a couple of restaurants and even a large-scale residential loft project. Nothing other than the Root Memorial renovation has been directly associated with TC.

OTOH, some announced expansion of the St. Joe's complex (which may or may not take place) may lead to something. Unfortunately, the St. Joe's expansion would seem to be the only thing that has any real chance to lead to some kind of renewal in this section.

[RedScare]

Chronicle has an article that addresses this issue.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/m...politan/3322833

At one time, there were plans to put a mall in SE downtown. I don't think that went anywhere, but the proliferation of structures around SE downtown should help it rejuvenate. The GRB, Toyota, Hilton, Pavilions and St. Joe's surround this area, making it close to a lot of activity. In time, it will morph into something new.

I think it is close enough to the periphery to become a little village of townhomes or midrises. With the new park going in a few blocks to the north, it would have a nice feel to it, but still be away from the concrete jungle. Once there are some neighbors, some bars and restaurants will add to the mix, giving residents and Toyota visitors a place to rest before the game (those that don't want to go to the Pavillions).

The slow pace of rejuvenation in this area, as well as Chinatown, Minute Maid, Midtown and the rest of downtown can generally be attributed to the land owners. Look at the price per sq. foot of land in these areas. Some of it is $150 psf. I understand the free market, but many of these owners have held the land so long that they are waiting for the next skyscraper boom to run up the price. This boom may never come. So, the land sits, with the parking lots on them paying taxes. Hopefully, some will sell at a more affordable price to spur construction.

Another attraction coming downtown to rest.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3322748

[UrbaNerd]

I think that plan to have a mall there was part of the original grand Houston Center. The mall was to be much larger than the one now. There's a pic of it on this site somewhere.

Ah, here it is:

[RedScare]

urbanerd, you may be right, but I thought I saw a proposal to build another mall in downtown near the 59/45 interchange. It was to rival the Galleria, as far as high dollar stores...which may explain why we never heard of it again. In fact, I thought I read about it on this forum.

BTW, I never thought that it would fit, either.

[houstonsemipro]

I think that plan to have a mall there was part of the original grand Houston Center.  The mall was to be much larger than the one now.  There's a pic of it on this site somewhere.

Ah, here it is:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can see the Houston Pavilions happening, but this? I really doubt that. I mean really.

[kjb434]

Hey,

In the early 80s that was a possibility. I'm glad it didnt' happen though. It would probably be defunct now.

[UrbaNerd]

That was an old plan, and it fizzled out along with the other massive plans they had for downtown (campeau, block 256, BOTSW, etc).

[houstonsemipro]

And I still not for sure about the Houston Pavilions. They have to show me. It has been wayyyy to many projects fail downtown.

My new motto is "Seeing is beleiving."

[brijonmang]

And I still not for sure about the Houston Pavilions. They have to show me. It has been wayyyy to many projects fail downtown.

My new motto is "Seeing is beleiving."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

like in any relationship...sometimes you just have to let your guard down and leave yourself ready to get hurt...unfortunately for houston...she breaks our heart a lot

[Trophy Property]

I would like to see a few of those city blocks turned into midrise apartment complexes. They would not have to be huge, but could offer "for rent" options downtown that are similar to those all around the city. As long as you could contain the residential and parking on a couple of city blocks I would think this could work. There are some good examples of how this can work in midtown. I would think that if one firm went into the Southeast side of downtown by Toyota Center or even more North by Minute Maid there would be some demand. I know the lofts were built across from MM and there are some options across 59 but I think a complex "for rent" with all the new ammenities would work well in downtown. It seems to me that most of the "for rent" downtown units are too expensive or in older buildings (Houston House comes to mind).

[Dominax]

I think that plan to have a mall there was part of the original grand Houston Center. The mall was to be much larger than the one now. There's a pic of it on this site somewhere.

Ah, here it is:

IS This a future proposal plan 4oor downtown H.

Or is this just what was in mind during the past

I like this photo

But only better often if those plan buildings where glass-steel to make a better model creation.

[TJones]

I can see the Houston Pavilions happening, but this? I really doubt that. I mean really.

Were they going to build all those hills in the background also ? That would have been nice.

Edited September 29, 2005 by TJones

[ecal_in_Taipei]

The slow pace of rejuvenation in this area, as well as Chinatown, Minute Maid, Midtown and the rest of downtown can generally be attributed to the land owners. Look at the price per sq. foot of land in these areas. Some of it is $150 psf. I understand the free market, but many of these owners have held the land so long that they are waiting for the next skyscraper boom to run up the price. This boom may never come. So, the land sits, with the parking lots on them paying taxes. Hopefully, some will sell at a more affordable price to spur construction.

I say raise taxes on surface lots for wasted valuable land.

or grass roots effort to teach public to avoid these lots when parking as to kill their revenue.

never going to happen in free market world but one can wish.

[kjb434]

I would never with higher taxes upon someone. Why should someone suffer for making a profit? Just because you don't like the parking lot doesn't mean the owner should be penalized. When the price is right, the owner will sell, but if you look at the money a parking lot will make over a year you'll realize why they still exist.

Don't get me wrong. I still want to see them go, I just rather a developer buy and then build on like in the case of the Houston Pavilons.

[LTAWACS]

like in any relationship...sometimes you just have to let your guard down and leave yourself ready to get hurt...unfortunately for houston...she breaks our heart a lot

And it's all YOUR fault.

[CincoRanch-HoustonResident]

^I thought you moved.

[Montrose1100]

You can see the 2 Houston Center there on the left side. This was in the early - mid 70s when this proposal came about I belive?

[jscarbor]

There are a couple problems with development in that part of downtown as far as I can tell. 1. Price is way to high for developers. I want to say $65+ per foot for dirt is what people are asking. Parking lots mae money and are sometimes hard to get rid f because they do so. You put some of these properties o a cap rate and grtting one for $65 per foot is a bargin. 2. One Taiwanese company owns many of the blocks and in the past was never really interested in selling. I think they had to sell a couple for the Toyota Center?

[Montrose1100]

Well what about parking for MM park? Its a disaster as it is! They need a super garage.

[Subdude]

Well what about parking for MM park? Its a disaster as it is! They need a super garage.

No, they don't. There are plenty of parking garages and surface lots within walking distance of MMP. A parking garage was originally planned for the other side of 59 across from the ballpark, but it was cancelled when they realized after the first season that the existing parking was sufficient.

[WesternGulf]

OK a super garage sounds tacky but MM Park does need one that can also offer some sort of ratail at bottom floor such as sports bars and restaurants that can cater to the sports crowd. Obviously the garage needs to be in disguise because it can be a hamper to the streetscape. There are too many surface lots around MM Park that can be used for future development. The Ballpark Village concept is becoming a trend because of the sort of nostalgia feel and it would not hurt for the neighborhood concept to surface around the ballpark.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Residential infill needs to continue near MMP more than anything else. It's slow but residential units are being put together on a fairly regular basis. I'd like to see someone take a chance on Ben Milam Square and the empty lots surrounding it. Nothing like Ball Park Place, with its quirky designs, but something like maybe five or six blocks of five or six story residential buildings.

[Montrose1100]

No, they don't. There are plenty of parking garages and surface lots within walking distance of MMP. A parking garage was originally planned for the other side of 59 across from the ballpark, but it was cancelled when they realized after the first season that the existing parking was sufficient.

Thats the whole point... The surface lots, if ever, could be used for developement, would need to be gone. And where is there to park afterwards?

[RedScare]

Thats the whole point... The surface lots, if ever, could be used for developement, would need to be gone. And where is there to park afterwards?

If infill ever does take up surface parking (we can only hope) to the point of causing a shortage, I am sure the Astros or sports authority, or even a private developer, would build a garage. Additionally, underground parking is planned for the GRB park, two blocks south of MMP. I doubt it will ever get to a point of being a problem.

Here's what the Astros said about parking on their website:

"Parking availability around Minute Maid Park has grown since last season. The nine-story garage connected to both the George R. Brown and the Hilton Americas offers 1,600 spaces in a direct line to the stadium. A little farther away is the 2,400-car garage at Toyota Center. A new 1,000-car garage, part of the Harris County courthouse complex, is open at the corner of Austin and Congress. New on-street metered parking has been added along Lamar, Crawford and LaBranch streets."

The County garage is actually 1200 spaces. Additionally, the County has already approved a 4 story addition in anticipation of the new courthouses opening and the new jury assembly area. It will probably be close to 2000 spaces when complete. The Parks shops has a 1000 space garage, and the Astros surface parking is 3000 spaces. Christ Church Cathedral is building a several hundred space garage. That's over 10,000 spaces, just in garages, enough to handle all but a complete sellout. In the event of a sellout, people park closer to Main.

There's not a shortage of parking.

Edited November 10, 2005 by RedScare

[eelimon]

If infill ever does take up surface parking (we can only hope) to the point of causing a shortage, I am sure the Astros or sports authority, or even a private developer, would build a garage. Additionally, underground parking is planned for the GRB park, two blocks south of MMP. I doubt it will ever get to a point of being a problem.

Here's what the Astros said about parking on their website:

"Parking availability around Minute Maid Park has grown since last season. The nine-story garage connected to both the George R. Brown and the Hilton Americas offers 1,600 spaces in a direct line to the stadium. A little farther away is the 2,400-car garage at Toyota Center. A new 1,000-car garage, part of the Harris County courthouse complex, is open at the corner of Austin and Congress. New on-street metered parking has been added along Lamar, Crawford and La Branch streets."

The County garage is actually 1200 spaces. Additionally, the County has already approved a 4 story addition in anticipation of the new courthouses opening and the new jury assembly area. It will probably be close to 2000 spaces when complete. The Parks shops has a 1000 space garage, and the Astros surface parking is 3000 spaces. Christ Church Cathedral is building a several hundred space garage. That's over 10,000 spaces, just in garages, enough to handle all but a complete sellout. In the event of a sellout, people park closer to Main.

There's not a shortage of parking.

I like to think that there is not a shortage of parking lots, but there is a shortage of infill.

I once wrote a high school research paper titled "Kill the Parking Lot; Build and Infill"

[RedScare]

I like to think that there is not a shortage of parking lots, but there is a shortage of infill.

I once wrote a high school research paper titled "Kill the Parking Lot; Build and Infill"

Absolutely.

I forgot to mention that IF infill were to occur, some of the projects will undoubtedly include garages, as well. We tend to forget this, but MMP opened in April 2000, one month after the dreaded and infamous tech stock crash, and one year before the recession. Houston, like everyone else, has struggled with the fallout ever since. While we show remarkably little patience on this board, the east side of downtown will eventually start to develop. In the last 5 years, MMP, Toyota, Hilton Americas and GRB expansion has occurred. The park and LRT/BRT line is coming. That kind of infrastructure will pay off. In time, I believe East downtown will actually be better than midtown.

[bachanon]

The Greater Houston Weekly section in The Houston Chronicle last week had an article about the ongoing renovations at The Park Shops. I couldn't find a link to it. It sounds like they are opening up the east end of the mall so that it better connects with the park space outside. There will be areas to have impromptu meetings and wi-fi. In general, places to linger and a lot more light and foliage.

My hope is that it would become a place for daytime workers, conventioneers and, if more entertainment venues were to open, a place to be after a game or concert.

[mike1]

The Greater Houston Weekly section in The Houston Chronicle last week had an article about the ongoing renovations at The Park Shops. I couldn't find a link to it. It sounds like they are opening up the east end of the mall so that it better connects with the park space outside. There will be areas to have impromptu meetings and wi-fi. In general, places to linger and a lot more light and foliage.

My hope is that it would become a place for daytime workers, conventioneers and, if more entertainment venues were to open, a place to be after a game or concert.

Rennovation at the Park Shops has been going on for the past couple of years, although most of the initial exterior work appears to have been done to the west end of the complex. (Personally, I'm glad to see that the ca. '80's Rainbow Piping is gone from the interior, though!). It would be great if they do open up the East side as well-- it always felt like the complex was barracading itself from that direction, as if the management didn't want people coming over from the George R. Brown to shop and eat. Hopefully, they'll rectify that problem.