Congestion Pricing Yielding Results On Katy Freeway

[Slick Vik]

From Culturemap:

The relocation business remains very strong as companies transfer employees into Houston from other cities, Bernstein says. The newcomers are buying new construction homes in the suburbs for people who work in the Energy Corridor or The Woodlands. But many newcomers who work downtown are buying homes in the inner city, Bernstein says

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/realestate/10-15-13-houston-home-sales-skyrocket-again-28-straight-months-of-increases-with-no-sign-of-an-end/

Interesting concept that people would buy houses in the areas that they work.

It's a good idea but if that was truly the case we wouldn't have any congestion

[LTAWACS]

Every "Energy Tower iv" or "Southwestern Energy HQ" or random energy company tower built outside the loop or Towne Centre only makes traffic congestion worse. Yes we can take the bus to and fro, but then one might as well double their commute times.

[LTAWACS]

Also, weren't the tollways supposed to be free by now?

[august948]

Also, weren't the tollways supposed to be free by now?

They were and that provides a good guide for the believability of campaign promises.

[august948]

Every "Energy Tower iv" or "Southwestern Energy HQ" or random energy company tower built outside the loop or Towne Centre only makes traffic congestion worse. Yes we can take the bus to and fro, but then one might as well double their commute times.

How so? Distributing the employment outside the loop reduces peak congestion inside the loop.

[Ross]

Also, weren't the tollways supposed to be free by now?

 

Why should they be? The tolls provide funds for maintenance that would otherwise have to be paid out of general tax revenues. Plus, the tolls help pay for new toll roads, again without impacting the general tax revenues.

 

[Slick Vik]

Why should they be? The tolls provide funds for maintenance that would otherwise have to be paid out of general tax revenues. Plus, the tolls help pay for new toll roads, again without impacting the general tax revenues.

All freeways should be tolled. Then we'll see who really loves to drive.

[Ross]

All freeways should be tolled. Then we'll see who really loves to drive.

And, all transit riders should pay the full cost of their rides so we can see how many might prefer to walk.

[Slick Vik]

And, all transit riders should pay the full cost of their rides so we can see how many might prefer to walk.

 

So this isn't about congestion after all, just your dislike of mass transit.

[Ross]

So this isn't about congestion after all, just your dislike of mass transit.

 

No, if you are going to argue that all freeway users should pay the cost of using those roads, then it's reasonable to argue that transit users ought to pay their entire cost as well. That would make a Metro bus ride about $5. I'm not opposed to mass transit in general, but I am not a fan of Metro's implementation. Plus, a Metro rep essentially called me stupid for asking her a hard question when the LR was getting started, so I make it my mission to point out everything Metro does that's stupid, which covers a lot of ground.

[Slick Vik]

No, if you are going to argue that all freeway users should pay the cost of using those roads, then it's reasonable to argue that transit users ought to pay their entire cost as well. That would make a Metro bus ride about $5. I'm not opposed to mass transit in general, but I am not a fan of Metro's implementation. Plus, a Metro rep essentially called me stupid for asking her a hard question when the LR was getting started, so I make it my mission to point out everything Metro does that's stupid, which covers a lot of ground.

 

If you really want to lessen congestion, then making all freeways toll roads is a good answer, because it removes people from roads. If you do this, obviously you have to improve your mass transit system because that is the alternate mode of transportation that people will look for, and to built that, it will need to be subsidized.

 

That being said METRO has gone through a lot of problems, but people like Bob Lanier, Tom DeLay, and John Culberson have made its job infinitely harder.

[livincinco]

If you really want to lessen congestion, then making all freeways toll roads is a good answer, because it removes people from roads. If you do this, obviously you have to improve your mass transit system because that is the alternate mode of transportation that people will look for, and to built that, it will need to be subsidized.

 

That being said METRO has gone through a lot of problems, but people like Bob Lanier, Tom DeLay, and John Culberson have made its job infinitely harder.

 

There's already a usage charge on roads, the gas tax.  I don't think that there's any question that the gas tax needs to be increased, because it doesn't serve it's original purpose anymore, which is that it should fund all highway construction and maintenance costs.  Toll roads are a separate funding mechanism, but I agree that highways should either be funded entirely by gas tax or toll roads.  I also believe that rail should be funded the same way.  It should be funded in a self-sustaining model and/or by bonds that are approved by voters.

 

You and Ross are talking about different ideas though.  Ross is talking about leveling the field so that all transportation methods bear their own costs.  You're talking about relieving congestion by raising the costs on car transit so that it becomes more expensive to drive a car and public transit becomes more attractive as an option.

[LTAWACS]

I agree with Ross. METRO has shown to us time and time again that they are incapable of managing their funds, projects, or anything else of relevance to their existence. As I've said before - they are nothing short of bungling pithecans.

[Slick Vik]

There's already a usage charge on roads, the gas tax.  I don't think that there's any question that the gas tax needs to be increased, because it doesn't serve it's original purpose anymore, which is that it should fund all highway construction and maintenance costs.  Toll roads are a separate funding mechanism, but I agree that highways should either be funded entirely by gas tax or toll roads.  I also believe that rail should be funded the same way.  It should be funded in a self-sustaining model and/or by bonds that are approved by voters.

 

You and Ross are talking about different ideas though.  Ross is talking about leveling the field so that all transportation methods bear their own costs.  You're talking about relieving congestion by raising the costs on car transit so that it becomes more expensive to drive a car and public transit becomes more attractive as an option.

 

If the gas tax is increased to a level where all road construction and maintenance is covered, people would complain that it's too expensive to drive. Which will lead them to public transportation. Which is great in cities that have good systems, but in Houston people would wonder why ours sucks so much. It's because the field is tilted towards driving that people don't even think about it. But if the tax was raised to levels that were fair, like in most other countries around the world, there would be reason to expand public transportation in a meaningful way.

[Ross]

If the gas tax is increased to a level where all road construction and maintenance is covered, people would complain that it's too expensive to drive. Which will lead them to public transportation. Which is great in cities that have good systems, but in Houston people would wonder why ours sucks so much. It's because the field is tilted towards driving that people don't even think about it. But if the tax was raised to levels that were fair, like in most other countries around the world, there would be reason to expand public transportation in a meaningful way.

 

Only if transit riders pay their way too.

 

[livincinco]

If the gas tax is increased to a level where all road construction and maintenance is covered, people would complain that it's too expensive to drive. Which will lead them to public transportation. Which is great in cities that have good systems, but in Houston people would wonder why ours sucks so much. It's because the field is tilted towards driving that people don't even think about it. But if the tax was raised to levels that were fair, like in most other countries around the world, there would be reason to expand public transportation in a meaningful way.

Highways are funded by a mix of federal funding, Fund 6 (which includes the gas tax and vehicle registration fees), and bond measures. In my opinion, each is appropriate. The federal government has an obligation to support interstate commerce and maintanence of highways, such as I-10, I-59, and I-45, is appropriate and proper. I question whether support of loop roads such as I-610 should fall under that, but that's another question. Bond measures are a voter mandate to build a specific project and it's proper that citizens have the right to vote for those projects. Theres no reason that those other two measures should be eliminated as a means of supporting highways although it's certainly valid to question the amount of financing that the federal government should provide.

BTW, the funding gap on the federal gas tax is only about 10 cents/gallon. It's not nearly as big as youre making it out to be. I fully agree that it should be raised to cover that gap.

[Slick Vik]

Only if transit riders pay their way too.

So punish the poorest people in society? What a good man you are.

[IronTiger]

If we charged mile for mile what it takes to build, maintain, and operate both rail lines and highways, then it would be cheaper to pay tollways.

 

And if we're going to play "blame the politicians" for having less light rail funding, then I blame whiny NIMBYs on why some freeways (e.g. Spur 5) are just stubs.

[Slick Vik]

If we charged mile for mile what it takes to build, maintain, and operate both rail lines and highways, then it would be cheaper to pay tollways.

And if we're going to play "blame the politicians" for having less light rail funding, then I blame whiny NIMBYs on why some freeways (e.g. Spur 5) are just stubs.

Are you aware of what happened to neighborhoods such as montrose, bellaire, and third ward when freeways plowed through them? This thing happened all around the country.

[Slick Vik]

Highways are funded by a mix of federal funding, Fund 6 (which includes the gas tax and vehicle registration fees), and bond measures. In my opinion, each is appropriate. The federal government has an obligation to support interstate commerce and maintanence of highways, such as I-10, I-59, and I-45, is appropriate and proper. I question whether support of loop roads such as I-610 should fall under that, but that's another question. Bond measures are a voter mandate to build a specific project and it's proper that citizens have the right to vote for those projects. Theres no reason that those other two measures should be eliminated as a means of supporting highways although it's certainly valid to question the amount of financing that the federal government should provide.

BTW, the funding gap on the federal gas tax is only about 10 cents/gallon. It's not nearly as big as youre making it out to be. I fully agree that it should be raised to cover that gap.

They should be taxed at a level that they can help fund other things, like public transportation, public education, health care, and other things. Taxing gas would be a quick way to help close debts that republicans always complain about.

[Slick Vik]

Revenues from Europe's high gas taxes are used to fund a variety of things. One thing they have built is better public transportation, said Peter Tertzakian, chief energy economist at ARC Financial, a Calgary-based private equity firm.

They gave people an alternative to driving, something we don't have in North America," said Tertzakian.

[Slick Vik]

Norway's gas tax funds universal health care and subsidized education, including university.

[livincinco]

Norway's gas tax funds universal health care and subsidized education, including university.

You're suggesting that Texas should adopt a socialist model?

[Slick Vik]

You're suggesting that Texas should adopt a socialist model?

It would be nice if gas taxes helped build alternative methods of transportation and expand Medicaid at the very least.

[livincinco]

It would be nice if gas taxes helped build alternative methods of transportation and expand Medicaid at the very least.

So this has topic has now moved from congestion pricing to changing the economic principles of the state of Texas?

Mod - can you move this thread to way off topic?

[Slick Vik]

So this has topic has now moved from congestion pricing to changing the economic principles of the state of Texas?

Mod - can you move this thread to way off topic?

I stated a simple concept, congestion pricing will lead people to public transportation. People will see ours and wonder why don't we have an advanced one like say, every other major city in the country and most in the world. And then people like you and Ross and Tom delay and john culberson will attempt to shut down this conversation with a variety of tactics. And the cycle repeats. At some point hopefully some sensible person with power will make sure that we get the proper system we deserve. And that's not bus

[IronTiger]

Or a simple thread is started and you start to clutter it with pro-mass transit propaganda. When that doesn't work, you pull out copied and pasted articles, or use insults.

[livincinco]

I stated a simple concept, congestion pricing will lead people to public transportation. People will see ours and wonder why don't we have an advanced one like say, every other major city in the country and most in the world. And then people like you and Ross and Tom delay and john culberson will attempt to shut down this conversation with a variety of tactics. And the cycle repeats. At some point hopefully some sensible person with power will make sure that we get the proper system we deserve. And that's not bus

I'm in favor of congestion pricing, I just expect that it's going to continue to drive business development to the periphery in exactly the way that business development is occurring right now. Look at the current office developments that are under construction. There's nothing under construction downtown and a huge amount of construction that is occurring out in the periphery. That by no means is meant to infer that downtown is suffering. There's clearly a number of projects on the board for downtown and Hines just announced that they are moving forward with theirs. I hope that most of them move forward, just recognize that downtown is decreasing as a percentage of the overall office market. In my opinion, congestion pricing will just accelerate that trend.

[livincinco]

At some point hopefully some sensible person with power will make sure that we get the proper system we deserve. And that's not bus

An increasing number of people seem to disagree with you about BRT. And yes, btw, that is one of your favorite sources that I'm referencing - DCStreetsBlog.

http://www.itdp.org/documents/ITDP_MORE_DEVELOPMENT_924.pdf

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/05/26/itdp-american-bus-rapid-transit-can-catch-up-to-the-rest-of-the-world/

[Slick Vik]

An increasing number of people seem to disagree with you about BRT. And yes, btw, that is one of your favorite sources that I'm referencing - DCStreetsBlog.

http://www.itdp.org/documents/ITDP_MORE_DEVELOPMENT_924.pdf

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/05/26/itdp-american-bus-rapid-transit-can-catch-up-to-the-rest-of-the-world/

I don't have that much of a problem with the concept of BRT, but the voters voted for rail so that's what they should get.