Thoughts On The Suburbs

[InnerLoopOnly]

I know this will come off as mean spirited and condesending to some so I appologize for that ahead of time.

I have been reading this forum for a while and feel I should chime in now. Many posters here extoll the virtues of living in these planned communities such as the Woodlands, Sugar Land, etc. They always talk about the wonderful schools, the clean streets, the wonderful people. They think it is paradise, and that the big monster down the interstate is scary and is going to eat their children. It is this mindset that represents everything wrong with America.

When those suburbs spring up, it forces us to build an ever expanding road network. This taxes or economic resources and our natural resources. We waste money on building 10 lanes, 15 lanes, 20 lanes! (I'm talking to you Katy). With every shrinking budgets in other areas, that is money that shouldn't be wasted. Of course it causes us to be even more dependent on our cars. Thats more money thrown down a hole in gas costs and maintenance costs.

We should also explore what this does to our families. We move out there thinking this is the place to raise the perfect family, but instead we end up with misery. Too many times parents neglect their children. They spend so much time at work or comuting that they leave their children my themselves. When you have unsupervised children with disposable income you get trouble. You also become a slave to your house. You have to mow the grass, paint your home, clean the pool. What a waste! For the same amount you spend on mortgage payments, taxes, insurance, and maintenance you could get a place inside the loop.

Also, a problem with the suburbs goes back to that old developers credo, "Retail follows rooftops." That sounds all well and good. And it is good to a point. But when you get homes poping up at the extremeties of the city you get speculative development. When the market goes south, these develpments go under and you get a big ugly shell of a building sitting vacant on what used to be undeveloped pasture, forest, or marsh land.

My remedy for this problem....stop the madness. Stand up to new development farther out. Lets build out what we have now. The innerloop has so many underdeveloped areas. If we can boost our density we can get vibrant communities inside the loop that aren't a drain on our economy and our governments.

[editor]

Nice prose. You should write for the Houston Architecture Blog.

[ricco67]

Welcome to the forum and it's an excellent first post. I'm sure you wll make a fine contribution to our family here on HAIF.

I totally agree with HAIF God.

Ricco

[Casual Observer]

That's nice and all.. but I'm about to close on a 4 bedroom, 3 bath, 2 car garage - a 2500sq ft, one story brick sitting on a 10k sq ft lot - all for about 150k "drive out" price in Sugarland.

How about you spot me 200k, to add to my 150k, so I can get the same deal somewhere over by Briargrove (west of Tanglewood) eh?

Oh, you don't have 200k to throw around either? Well then - welcome to my world.

[VicMan]

Yeah, we should fill what is in inside 610 (or whatever is left of it, as even that is going) before going out further.

[MidtownCoog]

For the same amount you spend on mortgage payments, taxes, insurance, and maintenance you could get a place inside the loop.

Hi, InnerLoopy

You don't sound mean spirited and condesending, just naive.

How many kids do you have?

[ricco67]

Hi, InnerLoopy

You don't sound mean spirited and condesending, just naive.

How many kids do you have?

Midtownkitty....

Are you perhaps suggesting that NO families be brought up in the inner loop?

what are your thoughts on the families that do?

[MidtownCoog]

No, just far less.

My exerience is that many in the "inner loop rules crowd" don't have kids yet.

And to raise a family of five in the loop, you need to either have some major bucks, or be willing to sacrifice some things (square footage, good schools, etc.).

From today's Chronicle:

Echo boomers push to nest

They're flocking to real estate sooner

[jmancuso]

year, ripping on the suburbs is all well and good (i for one couldn't live out there) but many in the anti-suburbia camp need to come back down to planet earth and explore the reasons why people choose to live in suburbia. in case nobody hasn't noticed but real-estate is skyrocketing inside the loop.

[ricco67]

My arguement is the fact that there are a number of people (including myself) that have been born and raised inside the loop.

There are also more families being raised there than you can imagine and they seem to be doing fine and not all of them aren't making more than $75k a year.

We've had this arguement time and time again and we always seem to go in circles.

Does one think LESS of a person that is raising thier kids INSIDE the loop whether they're making a household income of below $50k or above $250k?

[MidtownCoog]

Does one think LESS of a person that is raising thier kids INSIDE the loop whether they're making a household income of below $50k or above $250k?

You can raise your kid in a van down by the river for all I care.

This is America! Live where you feel happy! That's what it's all about.

And that's what makes this place great!

[ricco67]

Then let InnerloopOnly have his statement.

He said his peace for a newcomer was quite eloquent and well thought out.

Then why did you end your post to him by asking "How many kids do you have?" It led me to believe that you pretty much thought that it was something you thought as insane to raise kids inside the loop.

[bachanon]

Nice prose. You should write for the Houston Architecture Blog.

i agree....come blog with me.

as if i haven't said it enough........mass transportation to these suburbs could stop the madness. i love the woodlands because it expects us to "live, work and play" here. escape is not an option. there is crime in all of these suburbs. there is naughtiness . it is what you expect of your kids at home that makes them a better person. the environment is only an issue when the parents are not involved. if mass transit is imposed, then these city centers will blossom and the focus will no longer be on cheap housing out northwest.....i hope. build the freakin light rail system, build the commuter rail system and i believe the consciousness of the city will change. we are new to mass transit. make it happen, make the city centers worthwhile and quit bitching about the cars on the freeway. houston will make itself heard throughout the world when we accept our desire for free commerce and quit lolligagging over mass transit.

[Casual Observer]

Does one think LESS of a person that is raising thier kids INSIDE the loop whether they're making a household income of below $50k or above $250k?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, but living inside the loop on a budget of just 50k versus a family with a budget of 100k means that one child will grow up in an inner-city neighborhood with all the same ammenties and comforts of suburbia, as where the other will not.

I'm all for density. I just don't understand the retarded logic of thinking we have to stack everyone on top of everyone else. No family, anywhere, likes living like that. With a family you need space - even if it is only 1500 sq ft.

Besides, I might never live inside the loop now because I refuse to pay triple what a house is worth just because of location. That is bad money management if I've ever seen it.

[MidtownCoog]

No, it's cool and very possible to raise you kids in the loop. I did it for a year.

Now I live 15 miles from downtown. Trying to understand how that hurts anyone.

But I personally know some selfish parents that live in the city just so they have an easy commute to work. And their poor kid is the only other child for blocks and blocks.

But I do stand by my statement that most of the "inner loop rules crowd" don't have kids yet, and many never will.

[Casual Observer]

But I personally know some selfish parents that live in the city just so they have an easy commute to work.  And their poor kid is the only other child for blocks and blocks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what I've noticed in most innerloop neighborhoods also. Nothing seems "kid-friendly". The neighborhoods themselves feel to "adult-only"

I don't think there's anything wrong with the suburbs. If someone wants to live in Fairfield - what do you care? Did you really think that the freeways were going to stay 2 lanes in either direction forever?

[RedScare]

No, it's cool and very possible to raise you kids in the loop.  I did it for a year.

Now I live 15 miles from downtown.  Trying to understand how that hurts anyone.

But I personally know some selfish parents that live in the city just so they have an easy commute to work.  And their poor kid is the only other child for blocks and blocks.

But I do stand by my statement that most of the "inner loop rules crowd" don't have kids yet, and many never will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's see if I've got this straight. Live in the burbs, long commute, less time with family = unselfish.

Live in town, short commute, more time with family = selfish.

Color me selfish!

[Casual Observer]

Let's see if I've got this straight.

[VicMan]

"Living in the suburbs allows your children to make friends on thier street, play together, go to school together, and they have a better sense of life when its all just a few streets away. By living in the inner-city, you're eventually going to be trucking them across town to the local private school, and then back across town for karate or cheerleading. All said & done, you'll drive more than I will when I go to work & come home everyday."

In many cases, yes.

But, in some Houston neighborhoods (especially along the West side) and in several of the island cities, there are good public schools (River Oaks, Roberts, and Twain Elementary Schools got IB status, as do Lanier Middle School and Lamar and Bellaire High Schools) and lots of children in a middle class-type setting. I know that the babies in my neighborhood will grow up in a quasi-surburban environment.

[MidtownCoog]

Thanks, Observer

My two friends (one lives in Timbegrove, the other in Shady Acres) drive 20-30 minutes just so their kids can play with other kids.

And of course, both go to private schools off Memorial. Another 20-30 mintues just to take your kid to school.

There is a lot to be said for having a "best friend" down the street, not a long drive to see them once a week, or less.

But again, to each his own.

And of course their are "normal" hoods in the loop like Vic describes, but this city is a lot bigger than those 10 square miles. We can't all fit in over there.

[RedScare]

There appear to be a lot of assumptions being made about what is good for kids and what parents want. My post pointed EXACTLY to that...that some believe the assumptions are universal. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I understand that most of you who live in the burbs do so by choice, and based on assumptions...some of which may be outdated or incorrect. It is still your choice.

I could point out that Houston's crime rate has plummeted in the last 15 years, but many of you would scoff at that, even though you can look it up for yourself.

I could point out that auto accidents are the number one killer of children under 18, and that living in the suburbs means more driving, therefore more chance for accidents, but you would scoff at that, even though you could look it up for yourself.

I could point out your absolutely ridiculous assumption that everyone living inside the loop is either single or gay or old, but if you wanted to, you could figure that to be false as well.

My point is this. Live where you want, but use facts in your argument.

[InnerLoopOnly]

Good debate here. I like that. My 2 cents on having families inside the city. I think Coog may be on to something about the present situation of children in the city. I don't doubt that many blocks are devoid of children. Do you think perhaps that is because of the current suburban situation? The fact that the suburbs exist, the families are fleeing to them often leaving childless city cores. I don't think moving to the suburbs is the solution to gettting your kids social activities. I think it is the problem. I think a smart way to deal with this issue is for cities to incentivize families to live in the core. A system of tax breaks for family residences in a city or a healthy school system (no simple solution for that problem) could be the catylist for this look inward instead of outward.

[westguy]

Besides, I might never live inside the loop now because I refuse to pay triple what a house is worth just because of location. That is bad money management if I've ever seen it.

But your house is going to be worth less than what you paid for it in a few years, whereas an innerloop location will probably go up in value.

[Casual Observer]

The problem is, that by the time I'm able to spend 300-400k on a house, I'll be retiring, and thus future property value will have no influence on my decision.

[HOUCAJUN]

I know this will come off as mean spirited and condesending to some so I appologize for that ahead of time.

I have been reading this forum for a while and feel I should chime in now.  Many posters here extoll the virtues of living in these planned communities such as the Woodlands, Sugar Land, etc.  They always talk about the wonderful schools, the clean streets, the wonderful people.  They think it is paradise, and that the big monster down the interstate is scary and is going to eat their children.  It is this mindset that represents everything wrong with America.

When those suburbs spring up, it forces us to build an ever expanding road network.  This taxes or economic resources and our natural resources.  We waste money on building 10 lanes, 15 lanes, 20 lanes! (I'm talking to you Katy).  With every shrinking budgets in other areas, that is money that shouldn't be wasted.  Of course it causes us to be even more dependent on our cars.  Thats more money thrown down a hole in gas costs and maintenance costs.

We should also explore what this does to our families.  We move out there thinking this is the place to raise the perfect family, but instead we end up with misery.  Too many times parents neglect their children.  They spend so much time at work or comuting that they leave their children my themselves.  When you have unsupervised children with disposable income you get trouble.  You also become a slave to your house.  You have to mow the grass, paint your home, clean the pool.  What a waste!  For the same amount you spend on mortgage payments, taxes, insurance, and maintenance you could get a place inside the loop.

Also, a problem with the suburbs goes back to that old developers credo, "Retail follows rooftops."  That sounds all well and good.  And it is good to a point.  But when you get homes poping up at the extremeties of the city you get speculative development.  When the market goes south, these develpments go under and you get a big ugly shell of a building sitting vacant on what used to be undeveloped pasture, forest, or marsh land.

My remedy for this problem....stop the madness.  Stand up to new development farther out.  Lets build out what we have now.  The innerloop has so many underdeveloped areas.  If we can boost our density we can get vibrant communities inside the loop that aren't a drain on our economy and our governments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With all due respect, i don't agree with your view on suburban living. what are the advantages in living inside the loop? where inside the loop shall we live? Should we live near Highland village where residences have the luxury of hearing a loud train passing several times a day in their back yards.should we live near the budweiser plant...where there are poor neighborhoods, high crime,and a commute twice as long as traveling to sugarland?should we live in the loop where it is not uncommon to have schools located near liquor stores and topless clubs.when you couple that with getting a whole lot less for a whole lot more money,doesn't sound so great to me. no one is calling the suburbs heaven, but they do offer cleaner streets, better schools(view hisd statistics to compare),and a lot more for a lot less.sure the commute is longer, but the time made up "becoming a slave to your house" actually isn't a waste of time. it was that valuable time with my parents mowing the yard, painting the house,and cleaning the pool that contributed in making me the productive citizen i am today.Until houston solves it's drainage issues, poor performing schools,crime, litter problems,high motgage and high taxation issues;living in the loop is out of the question for me. This discussion is simple. It all comes down to choice. choices made according to a specific person's needs and wants.That's what makes this country great.

[HOUCAJUN]

But your house is going to be worth less than what you paid for it in a few years, whereas an innerloop location will probably go up in value.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i would agree with you if we had zoning.seems like you've got more to worry about.

[HOUCAJUN]

Good debate here.  I like that.  My 2 cents on having families inside the city.  I think Coog may be on to something about the present situation of children in the city.  I don't doubt that many blocks are devoid of children.  Do you think perhaps that is because of the current suburban situation?  The fact that the suburbs exist, the families are fleeing to them often leaving childless city cores.  I don't think moving to the suburbs is the solution to gettting your kids social activities.  I think it is the problem.  I think a smart way to deal with this issue is for cities to incentivize families to live in the core.  A system of tax breaks for family residences in a city or a healthy school system (no simple solution for that problem) could be the catylist for this look inward instead of outward.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So maybe its City Hall that's the problem and not suburban living?

[Guest danax]

It's simply supply and demand. What's available inside the loop versus outside. Why are more homes being sold outside the loop?

1) As mentioned, "inside the loop" to many means 250K+ with no children around. The affordable areas inside the loop (at risk of soundling like a broken record, my neighborhood has 1200-1500 sq ft homes for 80-100K. This would be a typical affordable neighborhood inside the loop that most "people" (white, black, hispanic) wouldn't consider unless it was all that they could afford). Schools, perceptions of crime (some of the suburbs are becoming much worse and will continue to decline, not improve), and to whites, being a minority and raising children that are in the minority in a neighborhood are the main reasons that a neighborhood such as mine is not a "viable" option.

2) New versus old.

Very few people see anything old as being better than something newer. Most people would rather buy a new house if they could. Inside the loop offers house built, on average, in 1950 or so. Most people want to get something not just newer, but bigger.Which leads to...

3) Women. Wives have a lot of say when it comes to buying a house. They often "gotta have" big closets to hold their humongous wardrobes, a big master bath to "luxuriate" in, big modern kitchen, separate bedrooms for each child, etc, etc. The materialistic age is alive and well so home builders keep upping the amenities to feed the insatiable thirst for more. It's a form of restlessness. The inner loop older homes definitely suit empty nesters, singles, gays, or the bohemian couple that decide to raise their child with the philsophy that less is more. There might be a couple of handfuls of those in Houston, I don't know. Oh, and Zen monks find older homes inside the loop a treasure.

This is just nature running it's course. The available areas that constitute sprawl HAVE to be filled, because they're there. To me, as an inner-looper, the sooner the better. Let it sprawl, baby. Once it's filled to the reasonable commute limits (1.5-2 hours each way), THEN, the inner-loop will get filled in with all kinds of different people as they just throw up their hands in despair as a life working 9 hours and 4 more to drive is hardly a life at all. This has happened in many other large cities but I figure I'll have my senior citizen bus pass by the time it really takes off here, which is fine. Yeah, I would like more upper class, creative, intelligent people like you all on this forum to move to my neighborhood and help me turn the place into a garden spot but I accept the realities mentioned above and throughout this topic.

In the meantime, many of you who want to raise a family in an area with kids and still be able to run over to Uptown, Kirby, Montrose, Museum District etc. 2 or 3 times in the same day on the weekends should open your minds to the possibility of one of these inner-loop old house neighborhoods. I say some of you would be pleasantly surprised.

[jmancuso]

i grew up both in the city (here in houston and back up in NY) as well as the suburbs (missouri city) and the arguement that the 'burbs are more "kid friendly" doesn't fly with me. there were lots of kids in both areas. back then, i had no preference where i lived but looking back, i benefited more in the city than i did in suburbia.

[VicMan]

"With all due respect, i don't agree with your view on suburban living. what are the advantages in living inside the loop? where inside the loop shall we live? Should we live near Highland village where residences have the luxury of hearing a loud train passing several times a day in their back yards.should we live near the budweiser plant...where there are poor neighborhoods, high crime,and a commute twice as long as traveling to sugarland?should we live in the loop where it is not uncommon to have schools located near liquor stores and topless clubs.when you couple that with getting a whole lot less for a whole lot more money,doesn't sound so great to me. no one is calling the suburbs heaven, but they do offer cleaner streets, better schools(view hisd statistics to compare),and a lot more for a lot less.sure the commute is longer, but the time made up "becoming a slave to your house" actually isn't a waste of time. it was that valuable time with my parents mowing the yard, painting the house,and cleaning the pool that contributed in making me the productive citizen i am today.Until houston solves it's drainage issues, poor performing schools,crime, litter problems,high motgage and high taxation issues;living in the loop is out of the question for me. This discussion is simple. It all comes down to choice. choices made according to a specific person's needs and wants.That's what makes this country great."

That's not true everywhere...

See the previous posts...

* There are several neighborhoods with plenty of kids, and several neighborhoods that would appeal to someone in the middle class.

* HISD has several schools that have IB status (River Oaks, Roberts, Twain Elementary, Lanier Middle, Bellaire and Lamar High), and Pershing Middle is seeking IB status.

In addition, the property rates in the inner loop are soaring.