Memorial Vs. Stratford

[TheNiche]

Misogynistic hyperbole results in more subtle incidents of misogyny, it encourages the behavior.

How? Be specific.

And I still dispute whether this is an example of misogyny. It just doesn't seem like this is a statement of hatred against women; would you be appeased if they came out with a gay version so that both genders were featured as 'taking it' equally?

[kylejack]

How? Be specific.

By portraying women in subservient roles to men (a "victory" to have sex with the other team's cheerleaders), it reinforces traditional gender roles, for one. For two, this feels like the rape and pillage model of conquest that has existed for thousands of years.

[TheNiche]

By portraying women in subservient roles to men (a "victory" to have sex with the other team's cheerleaders), it reinforces traditional gender roles, for one. For two, this feels like the rape and pillage model of conquest that has existed for thousands of years.

Nobody said anything about rape or subservient roles. It doesn't look to me like the sex act is depicted as rape or in any way non-consentual. The message could just as easily be that Stratford girls prefer Memorial boys (presumably because they're endowed like horses) and it would work just as well as the propaganda that it was intended to be. If that's the case, and the Stratford cheerleader is enjoying it, then one valid feminist view might be that this is an act that empowers women, breaking them free of the traditional mores established by a male-dominated society...or some such bullcrap like that.

[margokorin]

Honestly, I think the shirt is funny. This is "texas football" folks. These rivialires have gone on for years. KPRC showed the shirts from previous years on their evening news cast last night. When I was in highschool in the mid 90s we had our big rivialry game coming up against Conore and at the pep rally they had a Conore Tigers jersey. One of the coaches proceeded to make himself vomit on the jeresey during the pep rally. its just football. I dont think that any of the memorial players are going to trying and replicate this act, because they saw it on a t shirt.

[AtticaFlinch]

Honestly, I think the shirt is funny. This is "texas football" folks. These rivialires have gone on for years. KPRC showed the shirts from previous years on their evening news cast last night. When I was in highschool in the mid 90s we had our big rivialry game coming up against Conore and at the pep rally they had a Conore Tigers jersey. One of the coaches proceeded to make himself vomit on the jeresey during the pep rally. its just football. I dont think that any of the memorial players are going to trying and replicate this act, because they saw it on a t shirt.

Besides, I think the deed restrictions in Memorial pretty much prohibit horses anyhow. And, I think cheerleaders are against the law too.

[hadooga]

I really don't even feel like debating this, except that I kind of did already. For me, misogyny is the theory and sexism is the practice, but they're intertwined. The fact that at least half of the comments on this item, if not more (especially looking at the other sites mentioned upthread), say that it's "just a joke" and that those of us who said it was offensive should "get over it" speak directly to this. I'm not saying that one kid is going to see the shirt and possibly go out & try to copy the act depicted. It's possible, but not my main concern. Will lots of kids (both male & female) see it and just file it away with all the other sexist crap they see daily? Yes. It only begets more of the same. The fact that a lot of adults don't see any problem here is even more bothersome, but I'm unfortunately used to that, too.

If that's the case, and the Stratford cheerleader is enjoying it, then one valid feminist view might be that this is an act that empowers women, breaking them free of the traditional mores established by a male-dominated society...or some such bullcrap like that.

Are all feminist views bullcrap?

[AtticaFlinch]

I really don't even feel like debating this, except that I kind of did already. For me, misogyny is the theory and sexism is the practice, but they're intertwined. The fact that at least half of the comments on this item, if not more (especially looking at the other sites mentioned upthread), say that it's "just a joke" and that those of us who said it was offensive should "get over it" speak directly to this. I'm not saying that one kid is going to see the shirt and possibly go out & try to copy the act depicted. It's possible, but not my main concern. Will lots of kids (both male & female) see it and just file it away with all the other sexist crap they see daily? Yes. It only begets more of the same. The fact that a lot of adults don't see any problem here is even more bothersome, but I'm unfortunately used to that, too.

On another thread I alluded to the point that there's no end to the things that can potentially offend my sensibilities. I can't get upset about them all, especially because 99.9% of them don't matter. If people aren't up in arms about this, if people aren't outraged at the injustice, then you can use that disinterest as a cue that it simply doesn't matter.

Are all feminist views bullcrap?

As long as you don't use the word womyn for woman, your opinion is valid.

[editor]

I'm going to respond to your post mostly with sarcasm. Don't take it personally, I'm just making a point.

Honestly, I think the shirt is funny. This is "texas football" folks.

Well, that makes it all OK. It's football. So t-shirts intended for a high school audience depicting a teen-age girl being "towered over" in a sex act is OK. Because it's football.

These rivialires have gone on for years. KPRC showed the shirts from previous years on their evening news cast last night.

Well, if it's gone on for years, then it's OK. Things that go on for years are always OK. You know... like slavery. Or institutionalized rape. Or using lead for drinking water pipes. All of these things have gone on for years at one point in history, so they must be OK.

When I was in highschool in the mid 90s we had our big rivialry game coming up against Conore and at the pep rally they had a Conore Tigers jersey. One of the coaches proceeded to make himself vomit on the jeresey during the pep rally.

Nice adult behavior. No wonder shirts like this one get made. He should have been suspended. Nice role model.

its just football. I dont think that any of the memorial players are going to trying and replicate this act, because they saw it on a t shirt.

Yeah, kids never copy what they see elsewhere. They always engage in free-thinking enlightened rational behavior.

IMO, anyone who thinks this shirt is OK is lacking one or more of the following: a girlfriend, a wife, or scruples.

Anyone out there with a wife who thinks this is OK wanna wear that shirt home one day? Maybe wear it to the company picnic? Or how about picking up your toddler at daycare? After all, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just football, right? Nothing to be ashamed of.

[AtticaFlinch]

Well, if it's gone on for years, then it's OK. Things that go on for years are always OK. You know... like slavery. Or institutionalized rape. Or using lead for drinking water pipes. All of these things have gone on for years at one point in history, so they must be OK.

It is possible to oversanitize ourselves. Eliminating this creativity, however debased it is, is stifling to teens. The best course of action if you disagree with it, is to redirect their attention towards something positive, not to condemn their behavior. But, in my opinion, it's good for teens to see and hear things that their parents may not agree with. How else will they bring up those tough questions to their parents? Things like this shirt are the perfect opportunity for adults to take the role of teacher head on. However, had those parents been proactive in the first place, these shirts wouldn't be salacious and desirable to those teens. It would be old news before it hit the newsstand.

[editor]

It is possible to oversanitize ourselves. Eliminating this creativity, however debased it is, is stifling to teens. The best course of action if you disagree with it, is to redirect their attention towards something positive, not to condemn their behavior.

"Stifling" implies that this is their only means of creative expression. That is certainly not the case for the students of this high school or any other.

But, in my opinion, it's good for teens to see and hear things that their parents may not agree with. How else will they bring up those tough questions to their parents?

Teens have pushed the boundaries against their parents since there were teens and parents. Eventually, many teens push too far and have to be told when they've crossed a line. I think it's clear from most of the opinions I've read about this that the teens are finding out that they did, indeed, cross that line. There's nothing wrong with giving the teens that feedback. It's part of how they learn what is acceptable and what is not.

Things like this shirt are the perfect opportunity for adults to take the role of teacher head on. However, had those parents been proactive in the first place, these shirts wouldn't be salacious and desirable to those teens. It would be old news before it hit the newsstand.

I think there was a parent with poor judgement involved here somewhere. Someone had to have the shirts printed. The design wouldn't make it past CafePress. Anyone who's had shirts printed will tell you that there's always a minimum order, and a setup fee, and neither are cheap. There's an adult involved here somewhere. And the fact that that adult isn't coming forward and admitting responsibility shows that s/he now knows it was wrong. If there's nothing wrong, then there's no reason to hide.

[crunchtastic]

I really don't even feel like debating this, except that I kind of did already. For me, misogyny is the theory and sexism is the practice, but they're intertwined. The fact that at least half of the comments on this item, if not more (especially looking at the other sites mentioned upthread), say that it's "just a joke" and that those of us who said it was offensive should "get over it" speak directly to this. I'm not saying that one kid is going to see the shirt and possibly go out & try to copy the act depicted. It's possible, but not my main concern. Will lots of kids (both male & female) see it and just file it away with all the other sexist crap they see daily? Yes. It only begets more of the same. The fact that a lot of adults don't see any problem here is even more bothersome, but I'm unfortunately used to that, too.

The manboys here can frame it up however they like. I refuse to buy it.

From where I sit, it's not a joking matter, and the apologies for persistent offensive behavior --like you say--beget more of the same. Am i offended at the shirt in question> eh, it's stupid, maybe.

But: As a woman, I am offended at the weak and ridiculous lengths to which the manboys on HAIF are going to defend this crap. As a HAIFer, I am doubly offended that these allegedly educated males [with the notable exception of the Editor] are comfortable to high-five their shared offensiveness and dismiss the fact that the women on this forum are offended.Because that is what's at the heart of misogyny: dismissing women. Dismiss someone long enough, and often enough, and intolerance and abuse is easier. Mostly, I feel sorry for the misinformed young girls who think this is all ok.

To Niche and Attica--please grow up before you breed; your future daughters deserve better and I suspect you are far better men than your comments here would suggest. Ironically, Niche made the point earliest--if it were a boy -- let's say a boy in a Spartan football uniform--in the image, the tenor of the conversation would be vastly different.

[UrbaNerd]

Eliminating this creativity, however debased it is, is stifling to teens.

If this is the best creativity our teens can come up with, then I fear greatly for our future. They should be channeling their "creativity" towards other venues, such as intellectual pursuits, entrepreneurship, etc.

Misogynous; perhaps, but that's pushing it. Chauvinistic; probably. Tasteless; definitely.

[Porchman]

Ironically, Niche made the point earliest--if it were a boy -- let's say a boy in a Spartan football uniform--in the image, the tenor of the conversation would be vastly different.

Kismet, Crunch. If it had been a boy, this would have been an intense converation taking place in Memorial, not-so-much on HAIF.

[TheNiche]

I really don't even feel like debating this, except that I kind of did already. For me, misogyny is the theory and sexism is the practice, but they're intertwined. The fact that at least half of the comments on this item, if not more (especially looking at the other sites mentioned upthread), say that it's "just a joke" and that those of us who said it was offensive should "get over it" speak directly to this. I'm not saying that one kid is going to see the shirt and possibly go out & try to copy the act depicted. It's possible, but not my main concern. Will lots of kids (both male & female) see it and just file it away with all the other sexist crap they see daily? Yes. It only begets more of the same. The fact that a lot of adults don't see any problem here is even more bothersome, but I'm unfortunately used to that, too.

Is the depiction sexist? It seems to me that the girl might be liking it. And if so, then the assumption you're making that she doesn't like it or that she's submissive/subservient or coerced is itself sexist.

In my view, society should respect the choices made by individuals of both genders insofar as those choices do not infringe upon the personal rights of others. If a girl (or boy) likes having sex with horses, that's probably inadvisable and I wouldn't mind so much if the discovery of such an act disqualified them from whatever health insurance plan they're on, but that can and should be a gender-neutral policy.

Are all feminist views bullcrap?

Feminism was originally about establishing equal rights and legal protections for the female gender. I'm very cool with that.

I am NOT cool with providing special treatment to women if it places them on a pedestal, particularly with respect to issues of political governance and law enforcement. Women should not be thought of as needing protection...especially from themselves, as is illustrated by that everyone seems to be jumping to the conclusion that the depicted sex act in this case was meant to indicate a non-consentual encounter. Instead, IMO, women ought to be considered in the context of that they are competent to make their own decisions...just the same as men.

It's hard to summarize what feminism is in its contemporary form; it is internally conflicted, especially with issues such as prostitution and pornography. I tend to come down on the side of the issue trumpeted by extreme leftists and Libertarians.

[AtticaFlinch]

To Niche and Attica--please grow up before you breed; your future daughters deserve better and I suspect you are far better men than your comments here would suggest. Ironically, Niche made the point earliest--if it were a boy -- let's say a boy in a Spartan football uniform--in the image, the tenor of the conversation would be vastly different.

Crap. Already had a baby. A girl, no less. Would I approve of her wearing this shirt? Of course not, but hopefully I'll have armed her with reasons not to do so before it's an issue. I really hope my child will have been taught why it's dumb before she ponied up the cash to defamate herself. To be clear, I don't condone the shirts, but I don't condemn them either. Kids are kids, and if you expect them to reason on the same level as adults you'll be sorely disappointed.

(I haven't been able to stop the bad puns and innuendos in my posts on this thread - please forgive.)

If this is the best creativity our teens can come up with, then I fear greatly for our future...

Again, they're teens. I suppose if they had been the really creative types, they'd be enrolled at HSPVA, not Memorial. Had they been slightly more creative, the disagreeable parts of the shirt would have been too subtle for the squares to discern. The hacks who created this have probably achieved the height of their ability, but who here's willing to tell an 18 year old they've peaked?

[TheNiche]

I am doubly offended that these allegedly educated males [with the notable exception of the Editor] are comfortable to high-five their shared offensiveness and dismiss the fact that the women on this forum are offended.

Margo thought it was funny, too. Do not assume that because you are a woman, you speak for all women.

To Niche and Attica--please grow up before you breed; your future daughters deserve better and I suspect you are far better men than your comments here would suggest. Ironically, Niche made the point earliest--if it were a boy -- let's say a boy in a Spartan football uniform--in the image, the tenor of the conversation would be vastly different.

Well yeah, that was kind of my point. The tenor of conversation would indeed be different, reflecting that the sort of people engaging in this excessive moralizing are themselves misogynists who seem to believe that women require special treatment (and you'd probably get plenty of anti-gay comments along with it).

And that point right there illustrates just how much moral ambiguity surrounds the issue. Is anybody on this thread absolutely confident that they're 'in the right'?

[AtticaFlinch]

Am i offended at the shirt in question> eh, it's stupid, maybe.

Sorta kinda to what TheNiche just wrote, I really hope if you'd feel strongly enough about something to condemn it, I'd hope your reasons were better reasoned than "it's stupid, maybe." While justice is blind, public opinion isn't. We have a responsibility, as citizens of the first country founded on rationality, to reason through our disagreements and to not totally rely on our initial gut reactions. Is it stupid? Maybe, but that's no reason to be so offended.

[crunchtastic]

Margo thought it was funny, too. Do not assume that because you are a woman, you speak for all women.

Well yeah, that was kind of my point. The tenor of conversation would indeed be different, reflecting that the sort of people engaging in this excessive moralizing are themselves misogynists who seem to believe that women require special treatment (and you'd probably get plenty of anti-gay comments along with it).

And that point right there illustrates just how much moral ambiguity surrounds the issue. Is anybody on this thread absolutely confident that they're 'in the right'?

Point taken. I am the last person that should engage in moralizing on the subject of sex and bad manners, but 'special treatment' doesn't enter into the discussion. There's a show on VH-1 called 'Tool Academy'--those guys can defend and debate this stuff. Not you.

[TheNiche]

Point taken. I am the last person that should engage in moralizing on the subject of sex and bad manners, but 'special treatment' doesn't enter into the discussion.

'Special treatment' is (IMHO) the only reason that people are making a big deal out of this as a gender issue as opposed to it being a (relatively) straightforward and clear-cut obscenity issue.

There's a show on VH-1 called 'Tool Academy'--those guys can defend and debate this stuff. Not you.

In a similar vein, I'm very much pro-abortion but think that Roe v. Wade is terrible law which ought to be reversed (hopefully with a workable alternative to it implemented immediately thereafter). Don't tell me that that just because Roe v. Wade is a lightning rod for evangelist dicks, I can't go against it. Their bottom line may be the same as mine, but the top-line calculus is a universe apart.

[editor]

Is the depiction sexist? It seems to me that the girl might be liking it. And if so, then the assumption you're making that she doesn't like it or that she's submissive/subservient or coerced is itself sexist.

It's not an assumption. It is reenforced by the shirt's text, and also the whole theme of what the shirt is supposedly about -- football. To beat your opponent. To whip them into submission. To dominate on the field.

I'd like to know how you can tell that the cartoon girl is enjoying it. I can't see enough of her face to detect a smile. What is it in your mind that makes you think that she is participating in this willfully? Something concrete so the rest of us can understand; not just your own fantasies.

[editor]

but who here's willing to tell an 18 year old they've peaked?

Me. Right here. No problems at all with that. A lot of the people from the general population I've met in my life probably peaked earlier than 18.

[editor]

The tenor of conversation would indeed be different

For some, but not for all. There is more than one argument against this shirt. There's the misogynistic one. There's a violation of human dignity one. There's one about teens with pictures of sex acts splattered across their chests. There's one about the parents who allowed this to happen. There's one about the sporting culture at that high school that would allow the teens to even think this is OK.

Is anybody on this thread absolutely confident that they're 'in the right'?

Me. As stated before I don't believe high school students should be wearing shirts with sex acts on them.

[TheNiche]

It's not an assumption. It is reenforced by the shirt's text, and also the whole theme of what the shirt is supposedly about -- football. To beat your opponent. To whip them into submission. To dominate on the field.

I'd like to know how you can tell that the cartoon girl is enjoying it. I can't see enough of her face to detect a smile. What is it in your mind that makes you think that she is participating in this willfully? Something concrete so the rest of us can understand; not just your own fantasies.

She's obviously not fighting back, she doesn't exhibit visible wounds, and she isn't depicted as crying (her face might even indicate the derivation of sexual pleasure, but how would you know). Her hair isn't even disheveled! Barring any indicators of rape or coercion, one would be led to believe that the Stratford cheerleader is engaging in a sex act with the Memorial mascots because she wants to. This would be a clear-cut example of female empowerment. Her choice is intended to communicate inadequecy in some form among the Stratford males--probably physical endowment, as is alluded to by the size of the horse testicles that are illustrated, albeit not necessarily limited to that trait. Clearly the propaganda peice (which obviously requires a temporary suspension of disbelief and is rendered meaningless with even the slightest bit of critical analysis) is targeted against the Stratford male--and males comprise the football team, so it would make sense to shame that particular audience--but it does not necessarily reflect poorly on Stratford females or women in general.

[editor]

She's obviously not fighting back, she doesn't exhibit visible wounds, and she isn't depicted as crying (her face might even indicate the derivation of sexual pleasure, but how would you know). Her hair isn't even disheveled! Barring any indicators of rape or coercion, one would be led to believe that the Stratford cheerleader is engaging in a sex act with the Memorial mascots because she wants to. This would be a clear-cut example of female empowerment. Her choice is intended to communicate inadequecy in some form among the Stratford males--probably physical endowment, as is alluded to by the size of the horse testicles that are illustrated, albeit not necessarily limited to that trait. Clearly the propaganda peice (which obviously requires a temporary suspension of disbelief and is rendered meaningless with even the slightest bit of critical analysis) is targeted against the Stratford male--and males comprise the football team, so it would make sense to shame that particular audience--but it does not necessarily reflect poorly on Stratford females or women in general.

There's not enough of her face shown to corroborate what you want it to be. And the text of the shirt does not support your argument.

[TheNiche]

For some, but not for all. There is more than one argument against this shirt. There's the misogynistic one. There's a violation of human dignity one. There's one about teens with pictures of sex acts splattered across their chests. There's one about the parents who allowed this to happen. There's one about the sporting culture at that high school that would allow the teens to even think this is OK.

The only one I've been arguing against is the misogynistic argument, and I think I've very effectively shown that the issue is at least morally ambiguous and at most an indication of thoroughly-entrenched female empowerment.

Now that you bring it up, I also question the notion that the shirt's depiction or message is a violation of human dignity. A Google search for "human dignity" turned up a lot of hits referencing the Christian church. Legal interpretation--not surprisingly--seem to come from countries with a traditionally Christian population. It also seems to pervade socialist thinking; something along the lines of that someone who doesn't have access to the same material resources as someone else is being done an injustice. On the face of it, I don't think you're going to get me to admit that there is a human dignity issue because I tend not to believe in what I understand to be human dignity or the underlying philisophical principles.

I'm on board with the thing about restricting teens from depicting obscene, profane, threatening, or personally insulting material on their clothing (and in general). At a certain level, it can be distracting or hurtful to others. In general, though, I think that a lot of the effect of obscenity is diluted when society no longer considers it obscene. So I do think that there's a happy medium that could be reached, but I also think that we're presently too uptight about most things.

Where were the parents? Don't know. Good question.

You think that the teens that came up with this idea thought it was OK? Well obviously they know it's not going to be viewed in a positive light by most people. That's probably why they did it, and why it was so effective as propaganda. It's all about shock.

[AtticaFlinch]

It's all about shock.

Er... is it ok for an entire university to condone sexual imagery? Is it ok since this guy's over 18?

[TheNiche]

There's not enough of her face shown to corroborate what you want it to be. And the text of the shirt does not support your argument.

There's not enough of her face shown to corroborate your hypothesis; furthermore, while there are other indicators that support my hypothesis, there is not a single iota of evidence that supports yours.

The f-word can be used in many ways. George Carlin had a good bit about how it can be used as an interjection (of course), a transitive verb, an intransitive verb, an adjective, as part of an adverb, as an adverb enhancing an adjective, as a noun, as part of a word and, as almost every word in the sentence. It's use is not always sexual in nature, either. It can be used to signal fraud, dismay, trouble, agression, difficulty, inquiry, dissatisfaction, incompetence, dismissal, and no doubt other situations. There's definitely a double-entendre going on as it is used on the t-shirt, however given the excessiveness with which youth throw it around, it is difficult to incontrovertibly prove that the phrase was intended to be demeaning to Stratford females or to women generally. I tend to believe that the phrase is intended to humiliate Stratford males.

Er... is it ok for an entire university to condone sexual imagery? Is it ok since this guy's over 18?

Huh? I don't follow?

[AtticaFlinch]

Huh? I don't follow?

Speaking of double entendres...

The Cougar handsign is also commonly known as the shocker. I won't go into detail about what exactly it means (there's urbandictionary.com for that), but for the purposes of this conversation just know it's sexual in nature and far more misogynistic than the Stratford t-shirt. Granted, it's use as an innocent handsign most likely predates its use as sexual innuendo, but the fact remains a large public university not only condones the use of this piece of sexual imagery, it encourages it.

I quoted you because of your use of the word shock, but the questions were moreso directed at those in this forum who are angry about the Stratford shirt.

Edit: I also just realized the word cougar has sexual undertones that may or may not be considered misogynistic. No matter where I turn, I'm confronted with sexual imagery and innuendo that should apparently offend me but doesn't.

[sheeats]

Man, am I glad I'm staying out of this one...

[CHiPs]

Honestly, I think the shirt is funny. This is "texas football" folks. These rivialires have gone on for years. KPRC showed the shirts from previous years on their evening news cast last night. When I was in highschool in the mid 90s we had our big rivialry game coming up against Conore and at the pep rally they had a Conore Tigers jersey. One of the coaches proceeded to make himself vomit on the jeresey during the pep rally. its just football. I dont think that any of the memorial players are going to trying and replicate this act, because they saw it on a t shirt.

Uhh...yes they would.