musicman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Musicman, I don't believe either of those underpasses are comparable. First, neither are in very busy areas. The North Main underpass is surrounded by parking lots on one side, a warehouse on another, and a handfull of houses. The 75th Street underpass has a neighborhood on one side, and a couple of strip malls on the other. There's also a park, which will admittedly draw some pedestrian traffic. But neither can compare to the activity that everybody wants and expects to see on Harrisburg, and as Discovery Green has proven, activity discourages loiterers.Mayor white has ordered HPD to actively remove any homeless/loiterers from the park according to Suzanne Theis who is on staff here. she said that they would have issues cause she's actively involved from the park's perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianbian Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 My problem with underpasses is that they provide insufficient facilities for cyclists and pedestrians. Could they include walkways alongside? Yes, however they rarely do. In fact, Harrisburg already has at least one underpass that I can think of that does not provide decent passage for cyclists. Navigation as well. Overpasses are much more accommodating. As a cyclist, I heartily disagree. In fact, considerations for cyclists and pedestrians was my initial impulse for pursuing this project. METRO's bridge is designed with a sidewalk, but it is minimal. Most cyclist will not choose to use it, because pedestrian traffic will probably be significant. And in any case, pedestrians and cyclists will have to go up/down the same slope as all the other vehicles. With an underpass, the sidewalk could be designed at a much shallower grade: At the very least, we could potentially have something like this with an underpass. Having a separately graded path for cyclist/pedestrians is impossible with a bridge. Even when having to use the main lanes, I still prefer underpasses to overpasses. With an underpass, you can build up speed to help you get up the impending incline. But with a bridge, the best you can do is have a fun ride down. . .before you have to stop at the light at the bottom. Go try riding up the Navigation overpass sometime. Or the TC Jester bridge north of I-10. I HATE riding up those damned things -- UNLESS I'm training. But we're not designing this infrastructure primarily for athletes. This is more for the people trying to get to work and school, or maybe a restaurant or park. After trying riding those overpasses, go ride along Allen Parkway with its underpasses. Go ride under the Harrisburg underpass east of Dowling. And then you come back and tell me that 2000 foot long bridges are more accommodating to peds and cyclists than underpasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 As a cyclist, I heartily disagree. In fact, considerations for cyclists and pedestrians was my initial impulse for pursuing this project. METRO's bridge is designed with a sidewalk, but it is minimal. Most cyclist will not choose to use it, because pedestrian traffic will probably be significant. And in any case, pedestrians and cyclists will have to go up/down the same slope as all the other vehicles. With an underpass, the sidewalk could be designed at a much shallower grade:Like I said, it can be done, however I know that it will not (just as it was not for existing Harrisburg and Navigation underpasses already in existence. The shoulder disappears and there's no side path. Can it be done correctly? Yes, and it is on Studemont north of Washington, where there is a sidewalk through the underpass. The problem is that's the exception.Go try riding up the Navigation overpass sometime. Or the TC Jester bridge north of I-10. I HATE riding up those damned things -- UNLESS I'm training. But we're not designing this infrastructure primarily for athletes. This is more for the people trying to get to work and school, or maybe a restaurant or park.I get to work on my bicycle. I ride my bicycle through the existing underpasses on Navigation and Harrisburg and feel the danger often.After trying riding those overpasses, go ride along Allen Parkway with its underpasses. Go ride under the Harrisburg underpass east of Dowling. And then you come back and tell me that 2000 foot long bridges are more accommodating to peds and cyclists than underpasses.The overpasses usually have an alternate route of travel that stays on the ground which is suitable for cyclists and pedestrians. The underpasses rarely do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianbian Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 The overpasses usually have an alternate route of travel that stays on the ground which is suitable for cyclists and pedestrians. The underpasses rarely do.I thought your argument was that overpasses were more cyclist-friendly than underpasses, and if that's the case, why would an overpass require an alternate route of travel? You're really not arguing for or against an overpass or an underpass; what you're really arguing against is poorly-designed grade separation in general and nothing inherent to either particular type. Correct me if I'm wrong. Furthermore, your examples of poorly-designed underpasses are aeons old, back when the design standards for roads consisted of little more than "build a road." We're hopefully more enlightened nowadays, and I think more recently-designed grade separations would, in fact, suggest that we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Having a separately graded path for cyclist/pedestrians is impossible with a bridge.this is not true. it's all about design. the bridges over 59 have separate paths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianbian Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 this is not true. it's all about design. the bridges over 59 have separate paths.Note that I specified "separately graded" path. The side paths on the 59 suspension bridges are at the same grade as the main lanes, ie, no grade.Musicman, do you honestly feel that an overpass would be better for the East End? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I thought your argument was that overpasses were more cyclist-friendly than underpasses, and if that's the case, why would an overpass require an alternate route of travel? You're really not arguing for or against an overpass or an underpass; what you're really arguing against is poorly-designed grade separation in general and nothing inherent to either particular type. Correct me if I'm wrong. Furthermore, your examples of poorly-designed underpasses are aeons old, back when the design standards for roads consisted of little more than "build a road." We're hopefully more enlightened nowadays, and I think more recently-designed grade separations would, in fact, suggest that we are.Grade separations in Houston are built with decent alternatives when they go up and little to no alternatives when they go down. There's nothing inherent to the style of grade separation, but that's how its done in Houston, and I'm sure that's how this one will be done. The overpasses that go over the north east end of downtown, for example, (Elysian Viaduct over Burnett, etc) allow ample room beneath for cyclists and pedestrians to pass. It takes thoughtfulness to make a proper underpass where cyclists, pedestrians, and motorists can co-exist, and I don't trust Houston officials or Metro to be thoughtful or considerate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Note that I specified "separately graded" path. The side paths on the 59 suspension bridges are at the same grade as the main lanes, ie, no grade.Musicman, do you honestly feel that an overpass would be better for the East End?i haven't seen the latest plans for the overpass (if they are even available) but designwise it isn't an impossibility. pedestrian-wise, there there could be multiple possibilities but with limited row, it does limit them. i haven't seen any plans for the planned underpass. if you could provide those that would help in the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianbian Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 On Monday, February 2nd, Congressman Gene Green and Harris County Commissioner Sylvia Garcia will be meeting with senior staff at METRO to discuss the grade separation on Harrisburg. Gene Green, at the Eastwood Civic Association's November meeting, promised to secure federal funding for an underpass. If I've managed to convince anyone over the course of my postings on this subject that an underpass makes the most long-term sense for the community, then please call the Congressman and Commissioner and let them know that you think an underpass is best for this location and encourage them to work with METRO to make it happen! Commissioner Sylvia Garcia: 713-755-6220, sylvia.garcia@pct2.hctx.net Congressman Gene Green: 713-330-0761 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totheskies Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Grade separations in Houston are built with decent alternatives when they go up and little to no alternatives when they go down. There's nothing inherent to the style of grade separation, but that's how its done in Houston, and I'm sure that's how this one will be done. The overpasses that go over the north east end of downtown, for example, (Elysian Viaduct over Burnett, etc) allow ample room beneath for cyclists and pedestrians to pass. It takes thoughtfulness to make a proper underpass where cyclists, pedestrians, and motorists can co-exist, and I don't trust Houston officials or Metro to be thoughtful or considerate.Are you referring to the most recent projects? I'm a cyclist as well, and I frequent most of the major thouroughfares in the East End, including the underpasses of Polk St. and of Wayside (at Lawndale). For Cyclists/pedestrians, those have the same "shallower" sideways, and are be far the and most convenient way to continue on the street. The only problem is that it can become ver dark at night (the Polk underpass) to where if you're speeding on a bike, you have to watch closely for pedestrians that might also be in the walkway. My largest worry was with the MetroRail having to cross in the trench during a rainstorm, but 2009 drainage abilities have come a long way since those last underpasses were built. This underpass can be constructed to the point where METRO gets a safe passage for the rail, car traffic is not obstructed, and bikes and peds can use the facility with ease. I support the underpass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Are you referring to the most recent projects? I'm a cyclist as well, and I frequent most of the major thouroughfares in the East End, including the underpasses of Polk St. and of Wayside (at Lawndale). For Cyclists/pedestrians, those have the same "shallower" sideways, and are be far the and most convenient way to continue on the street. The only problem is that it can become ver dark at night (the Polk underpass) to where if you're speeding on a bike, you have to watch closely for pedestrians that might also be in the walkway. My largest worry was with the MetroRail having to cross in the trench during a rainstorm, but 2009 drainage abilities have come a long way since those last underpasses were built. This underpass can be constructed to the point where METRO gets a safe passage for the rail, car traffic is not obstructed, and bikes and peds can use the facility with ease. I support the underpass.I don't know whether you've gotten this far east, but there is also an underpass at 75th Street, just south of Harrisburg, and IMO it is about as friendly of a freight rail grade seperation as there could ever be from the pedestrian's perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 This cyclist votes strongly for overpasses. A lot of underpasses get a bit seedy and smelly. Have you even taken a bike through the one on North Main? Extremely unpleasant experience. Second, underpasses aren't always well lit, and if you cycle you know that visibility is everything. I don't know why it is, but car drivers don't quite seem to expect bikes in underpasses and I never feel quite safe going through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 This cyclist votes strongly for overpasses. A lot of underpasses get a bit seedy and smelly. Have you even taken a bike through the one on North Main? Extremely unpleasant experience. Second, underpasses aren't always well lit, and if you cycle you know that visibility is everything. I don't know why it is, but car drivers don't quite seem to expect bikes in underpasses and I never feel quite safe going through them.Your objections are not unreasonable. I believe that they could be cured at a reasonable cost.What if an underpass were approved on the condition that the Greater East End Management District (funded by neighborhood taxpayers) pay for abundant lighting, enforcement of "No Camping" signage, and a program of ongoing maintenance to include powerwashing? The GEEMD already hires out extra law enforcement patrols and has a special grafitti removal truck to which a power washer could be affixed (if one isn't already). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 James Rodriguez also seems to care what Julio and the Merchants Association think.from today's chron.Councilman James Rodriguez, who represents the East End, agrees with Metro that an overpass is the only feasible option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 from today's chron.Councilman James Rodriguez, who represents the East End, agrees with Metro that an overpass is the only feasible option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emirate25 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Article on CHRON.COMhttp://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6253287.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 An overpass would spell disaster for the entire area. We should hold accountable those who facilitate this kind of neighborhood destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianbian Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 From the Harrisburg Merchant's Association: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Houston, February 4, 2009 The East End is about to lose its most important development. The "Paseo de las Americas". Since 2001 several Harrisburg Merchants started working on transforming historic Harrisburg Boulevard into a hot spot for Houston tourists. The inspiration came from seeing the huge appeal of San Antonio's Riverwalk and Mexican villages to tourists. The proposed master plan shows a development of retail, restaurants and museums from the railroad tracks to Macario Garcia Street that includes Gus Wortham Golf Course and Brays Bayou, an area that could be converted into a County Club and a Riverwalk. To date, over 20 million dollars were spent to develop this area which included. Marbella Plaza and Banquet Hall, Web devices, Family Dollar Stores, Turimex Bus Station, Las Palmas Shopping Center, Value Village Complex, Citgo Gas Station, Washateria and Popeye's restaurant and others.. The Paseo de las Americas and approximately 40 stores will be lost if Metro builds an overpass on the railroad tracks at Hughes St. Every civic organization in the East End supports an underpass and not an overpass for this area. Councilmember James Rodriguez recently expressed to a local newspaper that he never heard of this development which was widely broadcasted by the local, national and international press. In 2005, then Chief of Staff James Rodriguez attended two of the group's meetings. This week our organization will start posting banners in our businesses to oppose the construction of an ill-planned bridge that will destroy our proposed development and the character of the East End. Should the overpass be approved, Houston will be deprived of the development opportunities in this area and businesses and families depending on their income will suffer. Harrisburg Merchant Association For additional information Please Contact Architect Julio del Carpio Plaza Marbella 713-926-7265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highway6 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 So was Harrisburg a Hispanic community when Santa Anna burned it to the ground ?How exactly does Paseo de Las Americas help to "Showcase the history of Houston's birthplace" ?Celebrating the birth of Houston and Texas is at the same time celebrating overcoming Mexican rule. How does building a quarter mile long MexoDisney facade celebrate the birth of our city ??What a joke of an idea ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchtastic Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 lol, No wonder James Rodriquez denied knowing of the proposed "Paseo De Las Americas". Forgive my harshness, but this is amatuer hour, and honestly, an embarrasment that anyone would seriously claim that $20 million dollars spent on building a Mexican bus depot, a Popeyes, a gas station, a dollar store and a washateria was somehow taking steps to become a tourist area. The Harrisburg Merchants Association needs to face reality. Oppose the overpass, but please drop the River Walk/Mexican Village agenda. Claiming an ill-conceived and unbuilt tourist development would be 'destroyed' is hyperbolic, sounds ludicrous, and takes away from what should be the only agenda here: getting the rail line built with an overpass and not an underpass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 The Harrisburg Merchants Association needs to face reality. Oppose the overpass, but please drop the River Walk/Mexican Village agenda. Claiming an ill-conceived and unbuilt tourist development would be 'destroyed' is hyperbolic, sounds ludicrous, and takes away from what should be the only agenda here: getting the rail line built with an overpass and not an underpass. i'm still thinking this is a one man show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan the Man Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 lol, No wonder James Rodriquez denied knowing of the proposed "Paseo De Las Americas". Forgive my harshness, but this is amatuer hour, and honestly, an embarrasment that anyone would seriously claim that $20 million dollars spent on building a Mexican bus depot, a Popeyes, a gas station, a dollar store and a washateria was somehow taking steps to become a tourist area. The Harrisburg Merchants Association needs to face reality. Oppose the overpass, but please drop the River Walk/Mexican Village agenda. Claiming an ill-conceived and unbuilt tourist development would be 'destroyed' is hyperbolic, sounds ludicrous, and takes away from what should be the only agenda here: getting the rail line built with an overpass and not an underpass.Agreed. This is harming their credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 So was Harrisburg a Hispanic community when Santa Anna burned it to the ground ?How exactly does Paseo de Las Americas help to "Showcase the history of Houston's birthplace" ?Celebrating the birth of Houston and Texas is at the same time celebrating overcoming Mexican rule. How does building a quarter mile long MexoDisney facade celebrate the birth of our city ??What a joke of an idea !I think it was still part of Mexico so... yes.I'm not sure but I think they want to redo the area. I think they should lose the freight railroad line that cuts right through there.I'm a little unsure as well. It seems this is some vague reference to the Allen brothers starting up Houston down the bayou from Harrisburg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 From the Harrisburg Merchant's Association: O... K... I am not going to be so harsh as to say that you're dreaming--provided proper planning, political support, and competent long-term execution, there is a lot of potential that can be drawn out at that location--but it's hard for people to envision (especially as tied into the Brays Bayou), and crunch is right that your track record to date is less than inspiring either to affluent politicians or to prospective tourists. You guys do need to work on your credibility. Open an office, even if its just in the back room of someone's store. Staff it with somebody experienced to lead the charge. Post signage on the street. Launch a website. CHANGE YOUR NAME because Harrisburg Merchants Association makes it sound like the area of interest is actually at the site of old Harrisburg (along Broadway); at least make it Harrisburg Road Merchants Association. Get economic development consultants to help you put together a marketing package that you can use to pitch to businesses and developers; also get them to help you set realistic goals. Get a landscape architect (a specialist) to do a visioning program complete with numerous professionally-done renderings, but do not attempt to draw out every architectural detail because that makes it look like you have influence over those details, and you do not. Always attend the ICSC in Vegas and network your ass off. Hire a political consultant to figure out what turns on those who hold the purse strings, then develop a media strategy to promote awareness of the district . Make a name for yourself among all of the neighborhood groups and within the broader population. This isn't cheap, but it is necessary. You'll need financing. Lean on member donations and the Greater East End Management District at first (ask for matching donations from them if they're initially reluctant) and then lobby for a Harrisburg Road TIRZ; model its form and function after the Almeda/OST TIRZ, which is one that has proven effective. Perhaps lobby the State Legislature to carve out a special Management District from the GEEMD that levies a higher property tax to fund these efforts. This takes time, and in fact much more time than you have to be able to effectively counter the overpass. But if you're serious about these plans and the ongoing evolution of your district, you need to start now. --------------- Ahem...did I ever mention that I'm unemployed, an East End constituent, and that have a background in pulling off stuff like this? EDIT: And as the signature indicates, I will work for food, but not especially hard under that circumstance. If the Association can compensate me by way of something other than tacos, I'll be much more effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchtastic Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 And as the signature indicates, I will work for food, but not especially hard under that circumstance. If the Association can compensate me by way of something other than tacos, I'll be much more effective.holy diversity training, Niche, you did not just say that!Come by for drinks tomorrow (HH post). Since you're unemployed, you might find that someone will buy you a drink. You are on your own upstairs, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALMSP Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 under...........over..........who gives a flying finger. It just needs to be built and life will move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 holy diversity training, Niche, you did not just say that!Apparently yes, although in hindsight it wasn't even all that funny. Ethnic jokes are perfectly OK by my book, but they should be funny.Come by for drinks tomorrow (HH post). Since you're unemployed, you might find that someone will buy you a drink. You are on your own upstairs, however.Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianbian Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 Tonight at the Eastwood Civic Association monthly meeting, METRO will be giving a presentation on the East End line, presumably focusing on the grade separation, and the East End Chamber of Commerce will be giving a presentation on recent developments on the underpass. The dueling presentations should make for an interesting spectacle -- and hopefully inspire some thoughtful debate. All are invited and encouraged to attend!What: Eastwood Civic Assocation meetingWhere: Cape Center, 4501 Leeland (Leeland@Ernestine)When: 6:30 PMI suppose I don't need to add. . .GO UNDERPASS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Tonight at the Eastwood Civic Association monthly meeting...I wish you'd posted this yesterday. Did any HAIFers attend? What's the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I wish you'd posted this yesterday. Did any HAIFers attend? What's the situation?crunchtastic is in attendance and will report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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