Olympics 2008

[sifuwong]

I dare a journalist to go into China, find out, and run before the government catches 'em. That alone would probably require a number of Olympic events just to escape alive. Hurdles, long-jump, 10,000m dash, decathlon, swimming, diving, archery, judo, fencing...

and shooting...lol

[Mark F. Barnes]

Steroids is a whole different matter.

Doping is a whole different matter.

You absolutely have no clue what you are talking about. A level 1 rules violation is a Level 1 rules violation, doesn't matter if it's doping or falsifying official documentation, (which is what they would have done if in fact she is under age), or whatever. It is punishable by stripping of the medals, and being barred from future Olympic competition. Might ought to do a little research.

[RedScare]

Whoever said No needs to pay up.

IOC Orders Investigation

[Mark F. Barnes]

Wong?.................Wong?........................Are you still there?!!!!!!!!!!!!!................[crickets] Hmmmm guess not.

[TJones]

IOC and China has got some 'SPLAINING' to do !!! I am sure China's defense will be the same as when they got exposed about their little singing sensation. "We are not ashamed. We did what was best for China."

If the IOC doesn't strip China of the team Gold and her Uneven bars Gold, then the IOC has lost ALL credibility. RUles are rules for a reason. If you let China get away with it, then why not let Phelps go for some more Gold by swimming in the women's events ? PErhaps Usain Bolt can run the women's 400 ?

[sifuwong]

You absolutely have no clue what you are talking about. A level 1 rules violation is a Level 1 rules violation, doesn't matter if it's doping or falsifying official documentation, (which is what they would have done if in fact she is under age), or whatever. It is punishable by stripping of the medals, and being barred from future Olympic competition. Might ought to do a little research.

I know what i'm talking about. Difficult to prove documentation as false. Doping is easily proven.

[sifuwong]

Whoever said No needs to pay up.

IOC Orders Investigation

IOC: No proof Chinese gymnasts underage

Wong?.................Wong?........................Are you still there?!!!!!!!!!!!!!................[crickets] Hmmmm guess not.

Still here Barney.

IOC and China has got some 'SPLAINING' to do !!! I am sure China's defense will be the same as when they got exposed about their little singing sensation. "We are not ashamed. We did what was best for China."

If the IOC doesn't strip China of the team Gold and her Uneven bars Gold, then the IOC has lost ALL credibility. RUles are rules for a reason. If you let China get away with it, then why not let Phelps go for some more Gold by swimming in the women's events ? PErhaps Usain Bolt can run the women's 400 ?

It's interesting that the IOC and FIG had plenty of time to investigate this before the Olympics begin and they went to China and discussed this with them. They got their documents, etc. and came up with the decision they accepted.

[sifuwong]

The only way the Chinese gymnasts will be stripped is if the Chinese government admits that they falsified the documents...which i doubt they will do.

[sifuwong]

If you guys wanna gripe. Here is something to delicate flower about. Lopez got cheated on a point and eventually lost the match as it went to extra time.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/t...o&type=lgns

[webdude]

I am ok with the age thing. Here is why.

First, Tjones gave a pretty good reasoning, which is why not let Phelps swim in the women's team. The problem with comparing it this way is that it assumes the age restriction is there to prevent unfairness in body physique, like the way it is between men and women. But it isn't, the age restriction was put in place fairly recently, and done so because of child abuse concerns. (I am a sick bastard who doesn't mind child abuse if I get to see feats of athleticism, same reason I like the circus where kids perform crazy stuff).

Plus if we use this kind of physique excuse to prevent athletes from competing, it leads down a slippery slope of preventing ppl from competing based on unusual body shapes, bigger hearts, longer bodies, etc.

Mostly, its because, I want to see the best against the best. And I think the athletes themselves would want to compete against the best. And I seriously actually wouldn't mind guys competing against women either because aren't they the ones who want equality?

[TJones]

I know what i'm talking about. Difficult to prove documentation as false. Doping is easily proven.

Not that hard when you have a news report from a Chinese controlled newspaper that has a news article, from just last year, about the same young lady, going on and on about "how great she is and she is only 13 years old and born in 1994 !"

So webdude, using your logic, it is ok to put a 23 yr. old golden gloves champ up against a 14 yr. old golden gloves champ in the Olympics if they are both in the 120 lb. featherweight class, or would that be considered child abuse ?

I don't care if the age restriction rule was put in place 10 minutes before the Olympics started this year, the rules are in place, you break the rules, you are disqualified. 2 runners were disqualified for stepping out of their lanes and on the lines. Michael Dix gets a Bronze Medal because the other two broke the rules, they barely stepped on the line, and only touched one or two steps. Should the IOC overlook it this time, and slap them on the wrist and say, "Well, if you step on the line in the next Olympics, you guys will be in trouble and THEN we'll disqualify you and take your medals away.

[webdude]

Not that hard when you have a news report from a Chinese controlled newspaper that has a news article, from just last year, about the same young lady going on and on about "how great she is and she is only 13 years old and born in 1994 !"

So webdude, using your logic, it is ok to put a 23 yr. old golden gloves champ up against a 14 yr. old golden gloves champ in the Olympics if they are both in the 120 lb. featherweight class, or would that be considered child abuse ?

I don't care if the age restriction rule was put in place 10 minutes before the Olympics started this year, the rules are in place, you break the rules, you are disqualified. 2 runners were disqualified for stepping out of their lanes and on the lines. Michael Dix gets a Bronze Medal because the other two broke the rules, they barely stepped on the line, and only touched one or two steps. Should the IOC overlook it this time, and slap them on the wrist and say, "Well, if you step ont he line in the next Olympics, you guys will be in trouble and THEN we'll disqualify you and take your medals away.

I think you are reading my mind, but interpreting it wrong.

I was actually putting down featherweight against heavyweight example as something i would like to see, but took it out because the sentence was too long. And I actually was thinking about Dix as I was writing the above as I was bummed about it.

But here is where you are interpreting it wrong. I am not against the enforcing of the rules. I am against the age rule itself, for reasons explained above.

[TJones]

....but that is exactly WHY the age rule is in place. Children's bodies, and we are talking about children here, are not physically ready to make such a sacrifice at that young an age, also it is about making a conscious decision to want to participate in the games. Children will participate like Pavlovian dogs for their parents and coaches in order to make their parent or coach happy, not to make themselves happy. Hand-eye coordination is also not as developed at that age. The IOC put this rule in place to protect the children under 16, not so those age 16 and over would be at no risk to losing to a 14 yr. old kid.

You might like to see Featherweight against Heavyweight, but when there are rules in place, Heavyweight will win everytime and it will end very ugly for the Featherweight. Now, a streetfight is a different matter.

[webdude]

....but that is exactly WHY the age rule is in place. Children's bodies, and we are talking about children here, are not physically ready to make such a sacrifice at that young an age, also it is about making a conscious decision to want to participate in the games. Children will participate like Pavlovian dogs for their parents and coaches in order to make their parent or coach happy, not to make themselves happy. Hand-eye coordination is also not as developed at that age. The IOC put this rule in place to protect the children under 16, not so those age 16 and over would be at no risk to losing to a 14 yr. old kid.

I understand what you are saying, but I already said I am a sick bastard, I go to circus and see kids perform body twisting stunts. And you know all those kungfu movies? All those actors, acrobats and fighters started at extremely young ages. If they hadn't done that, I wouldn't get to watch thsoe kinds of movies. If they had cared about age, then all those kungfu movies wouldn't be as nice to watch without all the best fighters who trained since they were like five. I just want to see the best, that's all.

[Mark F. Barnes]

They won't get stripped of the medal. Once the gymnastics competition are over, it is final. Look at Paul Hamm. He got the gold medalin 2004 Olympics eventhough the judges made an error in not calculating the correct difficulty start value. Had the scores factored in the Korean's start value difficulty, he would've edged out Hamm. However, the Koreans didn't find out and inquired after the scores were given, thus too late. The gymnastics federation said once the competition is over, the decision is final.

Steroids is a whole different matter.

Doping is a whole different matter.

I know what i'm talking about. Difficult to prove documentation as false. Doping is easily proven.

Hold on there Wong...... Don't try switching horses in midstream. First you claimed they wouldn't be stripped because of time constraints, as in the quote at the top. Now you want to try and justify your ignorance, in saying it's more difficult to prove. Stick to one load of crap, and quit dancing around. Just say you had no clue what you were talking about and be done with it. As I stated before, it's a level one rules violation, and if definitive proof is presented to the IOC, they will be stripped. It's going to take more than some article in a Chinese rag, but don't be too sure the proof is not still there. Time lines are hard to cover. Birth records, hospital records, school records, other athletic competition records, there is a lot of ground to cover. She may have been entered in a Jr. event under her correct age, and it was overlooked, you never know. But it's a long slippery slope, and not an easy task. But whether they can actually prove it or not, is yet to be seen. But the original point was it is an offense that can get you stripped of your medals, which you argued it was not. Try re-reading your own posts, before arguing any further. And that's Mr. Barney to you....................

[RedScare]

Mark is generally correct, in that China COULD have been stripped of the medals IF the FIG (gymnastics federation) had uncovered a rules violation. However, the FIG, well known for sucking up to the big players, whitewashed the entire deal, claiming they investigated and cleared China in a mere 12 hours.

And, Mark is absolutely correct in that sifuwong changed the argument from "cannot be challenged" to "too dificult to prove". There is a world of difference between protesting the judging, scoring, timing, referees, etc., to using ineligible athletes or banned substances. The difference should be obvious.

[sifuwong]

Hold on there Wong...... Don't try switching horses in midstream. First you claimed they wouldn't be stripped because of time constraints, as in the quote at the top. Now you want to try and justify your ignorance, in saying it's more difficult to prove. Stick to one load of crap, and quit dancing around. Just say you had no clue what you were talking about and be done with it. As I stated before, it's a level one rules violation, and if definitive proof is presented to the IOC, they will be stripped. It's going to take more than some article in a Chinese rag, but don't be too sure the proof is not still there. Time lines are hard to cover. Birth records, hospital records, school records, other athletic competition records, there is a lot of ground to cover. She may have been entered in a Jr. event under her correct age, and it was overlooked, you never know. But it's a long slippery slope, and not an easy task. But whether they can actually prove it or not, is yet to be seen. But the original point was it is an offense that can get you stripped of your medals, which you argued it was not. Try re-reading your own posts, before arguing any further. And that's Mr. Barney to you....................

Not trying to switch. The reason why i said they weren't gonna change it unless the government admits to falsifying is that several months before the Olympics started, this controversy had started. IOC had the time to investigate and accepted the documents. They should've been adamant about not accepting them and wanting further proof as well as not allowing the athletes to participate. Once they felt it was proof enough, it was the IOC who approved it and signed off. Once that is done, any participation and medal by these athletes is considered validated.

The IOC is not going to back and reverse itself unless there is absolute resounding proof. IOC also don't want to look stupid since they were the ones who made the decision for these gymnasts. Again, you can have hackers or some newspaper saying that these kids were underage, but the government is gonna provide the documents again. Like i said before, the only way is get the government to admit this falsification. Other than that, the IOC is not gonna do anything. Sure they are gonna ask the FIG to investigate further, in order to not look bad, but i don't see anyone getting stripped.

Personally, i think these kids are underage, but my point was that the IOC approved of their participation, so they're not gonna do much but ask for an investigation instead of really pursuing it themselves. It is hard to prove these documents as false when it comes from the government.

[sifuwong]

Mark is generally correct, in that China COULD have been stripped of the medals IF the FIG (gymnastics federation) had uncovered a rules violation. However, the FIG, well known for sucking up to the big players, whitewashed the entire deal, claiming they investigated and cleared China in a mere 12 hours.

And, Mark is absolutely correct in that sifuwong changed the argument from "cannot be challenged" to "too dificult to prove". There is a world of difference between protesting the judging, scoring, timing, referees, etc., to using ineligible athletes or banned substances. The difference should be obvious.

The IOC approved the participation of these gymnasts several months before the Olympics started. They had accepted the merits of these documents. Keep that in mind. That is why i said it really couldn't be challenged unless absolute proof.

IOC should've wanted further proof BEFORE the Olympics started. But, i think they would've had to approve since the only thing they could go on were the documents. Once the gymnastic events are over, case is closed unless the government/officials admit to falsifying docs. Like Shawn Johnson said yesterday, they should've gotten this straightened out BEFORE the Olympics. Just a distraction to the games now.

Oh..my point about Paul Hamm was that once the events are over, it is pretty much really over and decisions are final and not so much about the scoring.

[RedScare]

Not trying to switch. The reason why i said they weren't gonna change it unless the government admits to falsifying is that several months before the Olympics started, this controversy had started. IOC had the time to investigate and accepted the documents. They should've been adamant about not accepting them and wanting further proof as well as not allowing the athletes to participate. Once they felt it was proof enough, it was the IOC who approved it and signed off. Once that is done, any participation and medal by these athletes is considered validated.

The IOC is not going to back and reverse itself unless there is absolute resounding proof. IOC also don't want to look stupid since they were the ones who made the decision for these gymnasts. Again, you can have hackers or some newspaper saying that these kids were underage, but the government is gonna provide the documents again. Like i said before, the only way is get the government to admit this falsification. Other than that, the IOC is not gonna do anything. Sure they are gonna ask the FIG to investigate further, in order to not look bad, but i don't see anyone getting stripped.

Personally, i think these kids are underage, but my point was that the IOC approved of their participation, so they're not gonna do much but ask for an investigation instead of really pursuing it themselves. It is hard to prove these documents as false when it comes from the government.

That is incorrect. While the IOC runs the Olympics, it defers to the sports federations to run each sport. In the case of the gymnastics competition, the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) runs the competition and ran the sham investigation. The IOC merely accepted the farce as adequate.

The IOC COULD run its own investigation, but it chooses not to. As for resounding proof, no wants to find any, so none will be found.

The IOC approved the participation of these gymnasts several months before the Olympics started. They had accepted the merits of these documents. Keep that in mind. That is why i said it really couldn't be challenged unless absolute proof.

This is not what you said, but the readers can read your posts and decide for themselves. I will no longer beat this horse.

[sifuwong]

That is incorrect. While the IOC runs the Olympics, it defers to the sports federations to run each sport. In the case of the gymnastics competition, the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) runs the competition and ran the sham investigation. The IOC merely accepted the farce as adequate.

The IOC COULD run its own investigation, but it chooses not to. As for resounding proof, no wants to find any, so none will be found.

This is not what you said, but the readers can read your posts and decide for themselves. I will no longer beat this horse.

Whether it is the IOC and FIG, the point was that they had the time to investigate this further BEFORE the Olympics and approved of it. I do think the FIG is pretty corrupt, but we can talk about that some other time.

[20thStDad]

The IOC COULD run its own investigation, but it chooses not to. As for resounding proof, no wants to find any, so none will be found.

As I predicted earlier, I think this opens the door for some Dateline or Geraldo nonsense to bust up in there and make tons of trouble. Possibly with no result, but some american press group will get all over it and "prove" something.

I'm with webdude, I don't think there should be an age rule, not for gymnastics. Best against best. It's just not the same as featherweight against heavyweight at all. We're talking 14 versus 16 year old, and in this competition each won their share of events, so it is a level playing field. This girl obviously competed in the world championships last year, was the age restriction not in place for that, or was she already falsifying documents? Anyway, if it's good enough for the world championships then why not olympics.

I'm not so worried about the work they put into their sport as a form of child abuse, the ones who really really hate doing it know how to suck just enough to get kicked off the team. And they do it. I'm more worried about all the math/science/literature classes they missed growing up, and when they are too old to do their sport they are pretty useless. Too small to dig ditches too.

[sifuwong]

As I predicted earlier, I think this opens the door for some Dateline or Geraldo nonsense to bust up in there and make tons of trouble. Possibly with no result, but some american press group will get all over it and "prove" something.

I'm with webdude, I don't think there should be an age rule, not for gymnastics. Best against best. It's just not the same as featherweight against heavyweight at all. We're talking 14 versus 16 year old, and in this competition each won their share of events, so it is a level playing field. This girl obviously competed in the world championships last year, was the age restriction not in place for that, or was she already falsifying documents? Anyway, if it's good enough for the world championships then why not olympics.

I'm not so worried about the work they put into their sport as a form of child abuse, the ones who really really hate doing it know how to suck just enough to get kicked off the team. And they do it. I'm more worried about all the math/science/literature classes they missed growing up, and when they are too old to do their sport they are pretty useless. Too small to dig ditches too.

I agree with Bela Karolyi about not having an age rule. That way when the next Olympics comes around, they don't have to worry about some gymnast being the ripe age and having to prove this or that. These girls had competed prior to the Olympics and nothing was mentioned or investigated. Just a total distraction from the games.

The ages didn't have anything to do with the results of the gymnastics competition. It came down to execution and poor/bias, extremely subjective judging.

[20thStDad]

Can you say sportsmanship??

Matos faces lifetime ban after kicking referee following match

[sifuwong]

Can you say sportsmanship??

Matos faces lifetime ban after kicking referee following match

I couldn't believe it myself until i saw the pics. One thing to note, if you thought gymnastics was judged/scored poorly, you should see how bad it was for Taekwondo and Boxing.

[TJones]

I'm with webdude, I don't think there should be an age rule, not for gymnastics. Best against best. It's just not the same as featherweight against heavyweight at all. We're talking 14 versus 16 year old, and in this competition each won their share of events, so it is a level playing field. This girl obviously competed in the world championships last year, was the age restriction not in place for that, or was she already falsifying documents? Anyway, if it's good enough for the world championships then why not olympics.

You obviously failed to read my post where I said same weight class but with a significant age difference. 2 Featherweights, one 14 yrs. old and one 23 yrs. old. Who do you think will win Gold in that bout, given that they both started training at the same age of say 7 years old ?

[20thStDad]

You obviously failed to read my post where I said same weight class but with a significant age difference. 2 Featherweights, one 14 yrs. old and one 23 yrs. old. Who do you think will win Gold in that bout, given that they both started training at the same age of say 7 years old ?

The more experienced fighter, 95% of the time. It's still a moot point - if a 14 year old is eligible and wants to compete in a tournament with 23 year olds, let him do it. He won't make it to the final. But, if somehow he does, and wins, so what? They're in the same weight class, so about the same size, which physically is a fair fight. The more experienced, better trained fighter is supposed to win. If for some reason there was no age minimum in Olympic boxing, maybe you'd have some huge 14 year olds wanting to fight heavyweight, but they wouldn't even qualify for the games (unless they were freaks), so it would never even be a story. These 14 year old gymnasts are as good as the 16-20 year olds, so there's no harm in letting them compete. My point is that the 14 year old won some, and the 16-18 year olds won some. So it's already proven that it's a competitive field with the young chicks participating.

[HtownWxBoy]

Watching the Basketball gold medal game now... really good game so far... i'm going to be sad to see the Olympics end... love them!

[20thStDad]

Didn't they learn that keeping the lie alive will only make you tell bigger, dumber lies in the end?? This doesn't sound remotely believable.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/gym...tory?id=3550793

Redeem team!!!

[BryanS]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition...0,4696934.story

Stopped the Chinese from sweeping all 8 golds in diving, scoring in 1 dive, the highest-ever rated dive in Olympic history... and was the only out, gay athlete at the games, among the dozen or so out lesbians. Good for him.

...and now, it's all over.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Gay, straight or whatever, that was an absolute work of art, that dive. They showed the freeze frames from the high speed HD camera, and it was picture perfect. Just really amazing.