Why Did The FM 1960 Area Stop Growing?

[strickn]

One of these days developers are going to figure out that the old fashioned grid system, neighborhoods built off alternate roads that run parallel to freeways, was actually a brillant idea... Compared earlier in this thread, the areas of Wilchester/West Beltway to 1960 and it got me thinking. The houses look similar, some of the lot sizes similar, but what made one boom and the other stagnate? While there are many differences now, location from downtown is bascially the same. The major difference that stands out, is how the neighborhoods are laid out and how one gets to the neighborhoods.

I'm glad you brought the comparison back up and pointed this out, although I don't think this is quite the source you're seeking, nor do I think RedScare was entirely right about the 1986 bust being responsible either. How about this? - If the Galleria and the Post Oak / West Loop white-collar cluster were on the north (because 610 passes much closer to downtown on the north side than east, west or south, our new location would be around Little York) and Intercontinental had been built out west, then chances are good that Wilchester would be the one stagnating and this area the $$$. But Gerald Hines didn't want to go north, he wanted to go west. This bespeaks the power of the favored side of town - once it's clearly preferred (which it was before the 1960s), from then on you'll find that most of the jobs, retail and housing continue to reciprocally snowball along that vector out from the congested core. Wilchester is now an "intown" neighborhood of a prime job center on Post Oak Blvd which is just as much a draw as downtown Houston.

Long term, the *only* thing that can help the prospects of a quadrant which has nothing right inside it of this type - a concentrated submarket of complementary middle-class enterprises, operating in an environment flexible enough that they can generate new lines of work that expand or maintain the employment draw - is to create one.

Other explanations for the health of a submarket, like school districts, law enforcement priority, aesthetic impressions, entrepreneurship, and demographics in general, will almost always be subsidiary to the forces I've tried to describe. To some degree it sets the ground rules on how fully the daily metropolitan economy is going to interact with the local residents, and that has some bearing on their success at establishing as stable a life as possible with as little distress as possible.

Transit access to a flourishing job center somewhere else is not going to help very much; a local "edge city" submarket serves much better to open up neighborhood real estate - both its land supply and its personal initiative - to regional commerce. mastercreatorssdd describes factors that appear immune, but opportunity will change that outlook too. At the margins, anyway, and you may only ever make gains at the margins but that amounts to wholesale change pretty soon. Along these lines, hbcu has a really sharp analysis for Pearland.

[houstonmacbro]

mass transit plus cheap apartments = decline....not hard to figure out..

also, I've said this many times...run a major street from a predominately african american/hispanic area to a suburban area that has affordable housing, the area will change easily...

veterans memorial goes straight thru to 1960

humble borders a huge hispanic area and african american area of of 59 and you see how that area has changed

fondren area has a bunch of homes that people will never get money back for, but it's accessible to everywhere on the south side

Pearland, mock my words, will be the biggest bust for people who own expensive homes....you see the crime reports and Pearland borders South Park, Sunnyside, etc. with Cullen and Telephone running straight through

Ponderosa Pines or whatever it's called off FM 1960 is not the case. They have a large African American population and truly beautiful homes. Also, so did many areas of traditional 3rd Ward.

I think it is less a factor of race and more a factor of income, behavior, and class.

[LookingToMove]

The link to the article no longer works.

I've been wondering what caused the dramatic decline (of the schools primarily) in this area. An area that was considered very desirable, with great schools, just 20 years ago.

And what areas in Houston could be the next ones to go the same way?

Seems like a similar thread to this one as well. http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...=5919&st=30

[mrfootball]

The link to the article no longer works.

I've been wondering what caused the dramatic decline (of the schools primarily) in this area. An area that was considered very desirable, with great schools, just 20 years ago.

And what areas in Houston could be the next ones to go the same way?

Seems like a similar thread to this one as well. http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...=5919&st=30

The Government moved a bunch of Section 8, voucher and other social dependents into the area South of FM 1960, between Veteran's Memorial and I-45. Ford Foundation experiment to find out what would happen if you integrated a mostly white, middle-to-upper middle class exemplary school district (Spring ISD) with Section 8 dependents.

Answer: They destroyed it.

You now have a situation where you get scenarios such as this...guy cooks his ex-girlfriend with BBQ grill on his apartment patio in places where you would've never thought could ever happen just 15-20 years ago.

[RedScare]

The Government moved a bunch of Section 8, voucher and other social dependents into the area South of FM 1960, between Veteran's Memorial and I-45. Ford Foundation experiment to find out what would happen if you integrated a mostly white, middle-to-upper middle class exemplary school district (Spring ISD) with Section 8 dependents.

Answer: They destroyed it.

You now have a situation where you get scenarios such as this...guy cooks his ex-girlfriend with BBQ grill on his apartment patio in places where you would've never thought could ever happen just 15-20 years ago.

You are apparently too young to remember 1986.

[LookingToMove]

You are apparently too young to remember 1986.

What happened in 1986?

The Government moved a bunch of Section 8, voucher and other social dependents into the area South of FM 1960, between Veteran's Memorial and I-45. Ford Foundation experiment to find out what would happen if you integrated a mostly white, middle-to-upper middle class exemplary school district (Spring ISD) with Section 8 dependents.

Answer: They destroyed it.

Are you kidding? An experiment? What is the Ford Foundation? I've never heard of any of this.

Is there a way I can find out other areas of the Houston metro they want to do this "experiment" so that I can avoid those areas?

It freaks me out. I've seen these subdivisions (Olde Oaks/Oak Creek) and would never in a million years think the schools INSIDE a nice subdivision like that could be so bad.

[mrfootball]

The reality is, there are now over 1 million people in NW Harris County. While this thread refers to an area of 1960 zoned to Spring ISD, The area has grown tremendously. The stretch of FM 1960 from 45 to Veterans Memorial became one of the older parts of an area that on the whole has exploded with growth since the late 1960's. Even so, it's still nicer than most parts of Houston.

1960 never stopped growing. The areas beyond it grew more.

[LookingToMove]

The reality is, there are now over 1 million people in NW Harris County. While this thread refers to an area of 1960 zoned to Spring ISD, The area has grown tremendously. The stretch of FM 1960 from 45 to Veterans Memorial became one of the older parts of an area that on the whole has exploded with growth since the late 1960's. Even so, it's still nicer than most parts of Houston.

1960 never stopped growing. The areas beyond it grew more.

I don't know, I've done lots of driving around different areas of Houston. And other cities in Texas. And with all the visual blight along that stretch of FM 1960, "nice" is not a word I would use to describe it. Certainly not nicer looking that most other suburban areas I've seen (even many urban areas for that matter). It looks to me like it had tons of potential, but then the developers cut down all the trees to make way for ugliness (and what a shame! many areas of Houston don't have those tall trees growing naturally).

However, it's the subdivisions in which I'm interested rather than the main roads. Does anyone know why the schools within the subdivisions are getting kids from these supposed section 8 apartments? Does anyone know other areas this is happening, so I can know what subdivisions to avoid?

[TheNiche]

I don't know, I've done lots of driving around different areas of Houston. And other cities in Texas. And with all the visual blight along that stretch of FM 1960, "nice" is not a word I would use to describe it. Certainly not nicer looking that most other suburban areas I've seen (even many urban areas for that matter). It looks to me like it had tons of potential, but then the developers cut down all the trees to make way for ugliness (and what a shame! many areas of Houston don't have those tall trees growing naturally).

However, it's the subdivisions in which I'm interested rather than the main roads. Does anyone know why the schools within the subdivisions are getting kids from these supposed section 8 apartments? Does anyone know other areas this is happening, so I can know what subdivisions to avoid?

Low-rent apartments in the suburbs actually get a whole lot of working-class families, and it isn't so bad at the middle or high school level since those pick up kids from a broad area, but it can be overwhelming to a relatively small elementary school.

I have access to a database of all apartment complexes throughout the Houston area. Within the zip codes 77066, -068, -069, -090, and -094, there are six apartment complexes coded "Affordable Housing" or "Subsidized Housing". I don't know what that means. Some of them could be Section 8, but there were no complexes specifically coded as Section 8; I believe most of them are probably Tax Credit. There were another six complexes coded as Tax Credit.

So we have 12 complexes that are in some way subsidized by the government. But in that same geographic area, we have 68 complexes that are not, in addition to many thousands of single-family homes.

I'm reasonably sure that Mr. Football is overselling the problem as it pertains to Section 8. I'd suspect that there's only two or three out of a total of 80.

[VicMan]

You now have a situation where you get scenarios such as this...guy cooks his ex-girlfriend with BBQ grill on his apartment patio in places where you would've never thought could ever happen just 15-20 years ago.

To be fair crimes committed by people who know each other don't scare people. Random crime scares people. Murder by spouses/etc can happen anywhere.

[RedScare]

I'm reasonably sure that Mr. Football is overselling the problem as it pertains to Section 8. I'd suspect that there's only two or three out of a total of 80.

Mr. Football NEVER oversells the Section 8 problem! I demand that you take that back!

[mrfootball]

Mr. Football NEVER oversells the Section 8 problem! I demand that you take that back!

The problems with this area of FM 1960 are directly attributable to the Government.

The "section 8" issue includes those on TDHCA vouchers and other social dependents. That number would encompass large portions of the other apartment complexes.

Needless to say, the area zoned to Westfield HS and Klein Forest HS are pretty much identical situations with large sections of their enrollment zones drawing from the lower income South side of FM 1960 (sans Greenwood Forest) and beyond stretching towards Aldine ISD drawing in the aforementioned demographic.

[kylejack]

Its pretty much a nuclear wasteland due to all the ni, eh Section 8 recipients.

[RedScare]

The problems with this area of FM 1960 are directly attributable to the Government.

The "section 8" issue includes those on TDHCA vouchers and other social dependents. That number would encompass large portions of the other apartment complexes.

Needless to say, the area zoned to Westfield HS and Klein Forest HS are pretty much identical situations with large sections of their enrollment zones drawing from the lower income South side of FM 1960 (sans Greenwood Forest) and beyond stretching towards Aldine ISD drawing in the aforementioned demographic.

Oh well. Better your neighborhood than mine.

[TheNiche]

The problems with this area of FM 1960 are directly attributable to the Government.

The "section 8" issue includes those on TDHCA vouchers and other social dependents. That number would encompass large portions of the other apartment complexes.

Needless to say, the area zoned to Westfield HS and Klein Forest HS are pretty much identical situations with large sections of their enrollment zones drawing from the lower income South side of FM 1960 (sans Greenwood Forest) and beyond stretching towards Aldine ISD drawing in the aforementioned demographic.

I'm probably about as dissatisfied with government-backed affordable housing programs as you are, if not more so. However NIMBYist class segregation is not my chosen field of battle. The truth is that most Tax Credit complexes are actually very well managed. Tenants are subjected to background checks, people with felonies or bad credit are turned away as a matter of policy, and there are income restrictions.

I would submit to you that people who have unjustified knee-jerk reactions against having kids from working-class families attending their schools and that move out of those neighborhoods or even whine so loudly that prospective homebuyers avoid those neighborhoods probably do more economic damage to these neighborhoods than do the residents of Tax Credit apartments.

[JJVilla]

I'm probably about as dissatisfied with government-backed affordable housing programs as you are, if not more so. However NIMBYist class segregation is not my chosen field of battle. The truth is that most Tax Credit complexes are actually very well managed. Tenants are subjected to background checks, people with felonies or bad credit are turned away as a matter of policy, and there are income restrictions.

I would submit to you that people who have unjustified knee-jerk reactions against having kids from working-class families attending their schools and that move out of those neighborhoods or even whine so loudly that prospective homebuyers avoid those neighborhoods probably do more economic damage to these neighborhoods than do the residents of Tax Credit apartments.

These are great points that I agree with (especially the one about people being afraid of having their kids mixing with lower income kids). I heard this past weekend about a similar argument in a west Houston subdivision (western part of Memorial HS) that is about to be rezoned at the middles school level yet they will still attend the same high school. Moreover, I would add that many of those people are just making excuses for their kids instead of pushing to compete harder at school.

[mrfootball]

Oh well. Better your neighborhood than mine.

Yep, oh well....I live about 20-25 minutes away from that area. Not my neighborhood, but I hate to see the Government come in and destroy nice areas.

You live in the Heights, Red??? There's more riff-raff around you than there is North of FM 1960.

Which brings up the point to the idiocy of this thread. 1960 is no longer ground zero for NW Harris County. The area is immensely larger (1 million+ population) than it was when you were just a confused teenager growing up in the mean ole suburbs.

[RedScare]

Yep, oh well....I live about 20-25 minutes away from that area. Not my neighborhood, but I hate to see the Government come in and destroy nice areas.

You live in the Heights, Red??? There's more riff-raff around you than there is North of FM 1960.

Which brings up the point to the idiocy of this thread. 1960 is no longer ground zero for NW Harris County. The area is immensely larger (1 million+ population) than it was when you were just a confused teenager growing up in the mean ole suburbs.

I agree. Makes me wonder why you're running around scared of your own shadow. But seriously, you should do your research. The real estate bust that caused the wave of foreclosures and plummeting home values is what did in that area, not the scary government.

[mrfootball]

I agree. Makes me wonder why you're running around scared of your own shadow. But seriously, you should do your research. The real estate bust that caused the wave of foreclosures and plummeting home values is what did in that area, not the scary government.

Evidently time stopped for you and the area back in 1986...you seem to be stuck on this idea. Your thesis is flawed, as the area North of FM 1960 exploded with growth which continues today. While there was Champions, Champion Forest, Greenwood, Olde Oaks, Ponderosa and Westador back then there are now 50 or 60 more neighborhoods like them that have grown up North of FM 1960. They are still building some homes on the last remaining pieces of land in the Klein High School zone and those houses start in the $400k to the $1M+. This area's not exactly hurting. The areas from 1960 north and west past Cypresswood, past Louetta and past Spring Cypress and from I-45, past 249, past 290 all the way to 529 have pretty much filled in. New communities going in further out in Tomball, Klein and Cypress.

[RedScare]

No disagreement here. But, the area that you were complaining about is south of FM 1960. These subdivisions were middle class homes when they were built, and they were the homes hardest hit during the bust. They are also the homes that filled in with the working poor that you keep complaining of.

No one was talking about the areas north of 1960. Frankly, I don't even know why it continues to be discussed as if it is one area. The section of Harris County treated as one contiguous area is likely larger than Houston. Land grab by the Chamber of Commerce, I guess.

[KatieDidIt]

These are great points that I agree with (especially the one about people being afraid of having their kids mixing with lower income kids). I heard this past weekend about a similar argument in a west Houston subdivision (western part of Memorial HS) that is about to be rezoned at the middles school level yet they will still attend the same high school. Moreover, I would add that many of those people are just making excuses for their kids instead of pushing to compete harder at school.

SBISD is doing some rezoning? Where did you hear this?

Oh, that's going to piss some people off if it's true. The public schools around here are used like status symbols and class warfare. I'm glad we are private and stay out of that mess. It's stupid.

[JJVilla]

SBISD is doing some rezoning? Where did you hear this?

Oh, that's going to piss some people off if it's true. The public schools around here are used like status symbols and class warfare. I'm glad we are private and stay out of that mess. It's stupid.

I didn't get the exact schools but these are west of Beltway 8 along Memorial (between Wilcrest & Kirkwood, north of the country club). My fiance's aunt thougth it was amussing that peopel are so bent out of shape and didn't explain much more. Maybe it's that they have traveled all over the place and have a broader perspective or JUST amused at people stressing over this considering the larger problems at hand.

[KatieDidIt]

I didn't get the exact schools but these are west of Beltway 8 along Memorial (between Wilcrest & Kirkwood, north of the country club). My fiance's aunt thougth it was amussing that peopel are so bent out of shape and didn't explain much more. Maybe it's that they have traveled all over the place and have a broader perspective or JUST amused at people stressing over this considering the larger problems at hand.

Hmmm, well I live that area, but I haven't heard anything around here. But most of the kids in our subdivision go to private, so I guess that would be why. We are also zoned to the undesired, or what people haved called to my face "hood school." I'm pretty sure they don't have a clue what a real "hood school" is. Getting bent out of shape over one middle school or the other in this part of town is a bit like chasing your tail. If you want a better education than these particular public schools can provide, you go private.

Now if they were going to ship their kids over to Landrum, then I'd understand the angst.

[VicMan]

Hmmm, well I live that area, but I haven't heard anything around here. But most of the kids in our subdivision go to private, so I guess that would be why. We are also zoned to the undesired, or what people haved called to my face "hood school." I'm pretty sure they don't have a clue what a real "hood school" is. Getting bent out of shape over one middle school or the other in this part of town is a bit like chasing your tail. If you want a better education than these particular public schools can provide, you go private.

Now if they were going to ship their kids over to Landrum, then I'd understand the angst.

I would imagine that Spring Forest and Memorial both offer good education. Katie, why not show these people this page: http://www.rjgeib.com/biography/inner-city...s/innerblu.html - Berendo Middle School in Los Angeles in the 1990s screams "Hood School"