Four Toll Lanes on I-10?

[N Judah]

it's more involved than one extra lane and a feeder lane. the maintenance on the 60's infrastructure, had become expensive, and many portions did not meet recommendations for height, etc. The inner loop portion of the katy has already been rebuilt for the same reasons and we gained no lanes. were you against that as well? as with all infrastructure, it must be maintained at the minimum and/or expanded to accomodate growth.

Cool! I'll just take your word for it, then. I hope the HCTRA section of the freeway is also getting this "maintenance." I am sure they will be paying their fair share!

a couple of yrs ago, the city was forced to replaced the sewer system on my street because residents at the other end of the block were having issues. this past weekend, the electrical service to my house failed due to aged infrastructure i.e. it was not maintained. not sure about you, but i'm grateful for maintenance.

Interesting. Did they double the cost on you when it was too late to do anything about it? Or were you just grateful to have electricity, and did not think too much about it?

[musicman]

Interesting. Did they double the cost on you when it was too late to do anything about it? Or were you just grateful to have electricity, and did not think too much about it?

as the service provider, they covered the failed infrastructure as part of maintenance.

[crunchtastic]

Yeah, it lacks a certain precision.

Lose the robe, add a bottle of rum (the scotch being kept at work), and change the words "creepy" to "crappy" and "house" to "condo". Now we're talking reality.

Hmm...I've probably said too much.

Not at all. Just validating my suspicions.....

[N Judah]

as the service provider, they covered the failed infrastructure as part of maintenance.

Yeah, I guess your analogy wasn't that great after all.

Anyway, like I said, those must be some expensive tolls or HCTRA is expecting a few billion paying riders to cover their section.

[musicman]

Anyway, like I said, those must be some expensive tolls or HCTRA is expecting a few billion paying riders to cover their section.

their portion isn't a few billion.

[N Judah]

their portion isn't a few billion.

Are not the "maintenance" and expansion costs divvied up proportionally to the amount of lanes added?

Edit: $250 million for their share? Apparently not. What a great scam! (Even before the cost doubled.)

[musicman]

Are not the "maintenance" and expansion costs divvied up proportionally to the amount of lanes added?

Edit: $250 million for their share? Apparently not. What a great scam! (Even before the cost doubled.)

0.5 billion according to the literature. from the different requirements needed between the toll portion and the remaining portion, i don't think i could conclude costs are proportional.

[N Judah]

Correct. The toll portion really should bear the majority of the costs.

[musicman]

Correct. The toll portion really should bear the majority of the costs.

the majority of the costs of what?

[N Judah]

the majority of the costs of what?

Hrm, interesting question, actually. I'm hoping that it's the same thing you were referring to when you said " i don't think i could conclude costs are proportional."

Six new lanes, 2/3rds of which are HCTRA. Is $0.5 billion 2/3rds of the total cost?

[musicman]

Hrm, interesting question, actually. I'm hoping that it's the same thing you were referring to when you said " i don't think i could conclude costs are proportional."

Six new lanes, 2/3rds of which are HCTRA. Is $0.5 billion 2/3rds of the total cost?

no. i think you need to go back and look at the project and see what is being built. not sure you're quite there yet. there's a link earlier in the thread describing the configuration.

[N Judah]

no. i think you need to go back and look at the project and see what is being built. not sure you're quite there yet. there's a link earlier in the thread describing the configuration.

Actually, if you could simply explain which costs you don't think are "proportional" then I could consider that a useful contribution.

Maintenance, feeder roads, landscaping, eminent domain etc. benefit the HCTRA section as well as the free section. If you could explain to me how that is not the case, then I will concede that HCTRA has no need to contribute its fair share to the expansion. Otherwise it seems that HCTRA's $250 million in bonds and $250 million contribution in toll revenue is not enough -- and giving a couple of lanes HOV status does not make up the difference.

[pestofan]

I love how the usual anti-freeway and anti-tollway blowhards argue out of both sides of their mouths. First their cry was "A 22-lane monstrosity!" (purposely trying to fool people into thinking just the freeway section itself would be 11-lanes wide and never mentioning that frontage roads and HOV lanes were a part of that number) and now it is "What a waste, they only added 1 lane each way!" Well, which is it, will the new Katy Fwy be too big or too small? Because the pre-construction Katy Fwy sure wasn't 20-lanes wide.

The truth is that in each direction they added 1 frontage lane, 1 mainlane, and 1 HOV lane for the full length, for a total of 18 continuous lanes vs. 12 previously. That is a 50% increase in continuous lane miles. A 33% increase in mainlanes, a 50% increase in frontage lanes, and a 100% increase in HOV lanes. So if these anti-road lawyers and activists are supposedly ethical and honest, why do they count all the lanes when they scream "Too big!" yet only count freeway mainlanes when screaming "Too small, not worth the effort!" If the facts are in your favor, why resort to misleading the public?

And like a Bassamatic, "But wait, there's more!" The above picture is only a cross section of the new Katy Fwy where the lanes are fewest. In many areas there will be 5 or even 6 mainlanes each way to deal with on/off merging and approaching interchanges, as well as a far more efficient entry and exit ramp setup. Together they add a huge boost in road capacity, so "adding 1 mainlane" doesn't at all tell the whole story. I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but just the mainlane capacity increase is well over 50% with the more efficient redesign. Bottom line, while they may have only added 1 continuous lane in each direction on the free freeway portion, all the improvements equal to more than 2 additional lanes worth of capacity added (the number of cars that can pass through a section in an hour.) Think of all the stop and go congestion where there are many more merging areas per mile, shorter exit and acceleration ramps, and shorter distances from ramp to stoplight. Compare that to the new design that has fewer and longer entry and exit ramps with longer merge sections and emptying onto the feeder roads further back from the stoplights (more room to decelerate and accelerate.) Plus the more than doubling of the HOV capacity (2 lanes is more efficient than 1, so while lane miles double, the number of cars that can be moved per hour more than doubles) and the at least 50% increase in capacity of the feeder roads. (West of Hwy 6 there will be slightly less capacity because the 4 HOV lanes will be only 2 diamond lanes, but capacity was also less in this section pre-construction.)

But don't believe me on the number of mainlanes in most areas, look for yourself at the actual planning maps that show the number of lanes for each section:

http://www.katyfreeway.org/re-eval.html

http://www.katyfreeway.org/schematics.html

http://www.katyfreeway.org/

Terraserver has aerial photos from 1995 where you can see the earlier lane arrangements (albeit if you squint!)

http://terraserver-usa.com/

[N Judah]

So we're looking at it in percentages now? Using your logic, the percentage increase in toll lanes (replete with fake "congestion pricing"), since there were zero before, is INFINITE. Not bad for $250 million in bonds and $250 million in toll revenue. When they hit $250 million do the toll lanes become free (as was promised in the case of the Sam Houston Tollway) ? I'm guessing not. They'll probably use it to finance more toll stuff elsewhere.

I'm not pro or anti tollway but I would much rather have an even-handed discussion rather than fallacious reasoning and gamesmanship since we are dealing with public money.

Of course, I forget: since I'm not against "maintenance" it naturally follows that I should accept the massive cost overruns and not think too much about it.

Edit: When you say they added 1 HOV lane in each direction, you are referring to the peak-time-only 3+ HOV lane that is tolled for everyone else and at all other hours, correct?

[Trae]

I love how the usual anti-freeway and anti-tollway blowhards argue out of both sides of their mouths. First their cry was "A 22-lane monstrosity!" (purposely trying to fool people into thinking just the freeway section itself would be 11-lanes wide and never mentioning that frontage roads and HOV lanes were a part of that number) and now it is "What a waste, they only added 1 lane each way!" Well, which is it, will the new Katy Fwy be too big or too small? Because the pre-construction Katy Fwy sure wasn't 20-lanes wide.

The truth is that in each direction they added 1 frontage lane, 1 mainlane, and 1 HOV lane for the full length, for a total of 18 continuous lanes vs. 12 previously. That is a 50% increase in continuous lane miles. A 33% increase in mainlanes, a 50% increase in frontage lanes, and a 100% increase in HOV lanes. So if these anti-road lawyers and activists are supposedly ethical and honest, why do they count all the lanes when they scream "Too big!" yet only count freeway mainlanes when screaming "Too small, not worth the effort!" If the facts are in your favor, why resort to misleading the public?

And like a Bassamatic, "But wait, there's more!" The above picture is only a cross section of the new Katy Fwy where the lanes are fewest. In many areas there will be 5 or even 6 mainlanes each way to deal with on/off merging and approaching interchanges, as well as a far more efficient entry and exit ramp setup. Together they add a huge boost in road capacity, so "adding 1 mainlane" doesn't at all tell the whole story. I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but just the mainlane capacity increase is well over 50% with the more efficient redesign. Bottom line, while they may have only added 1 continuous lane in each direction on the free freeway portion, all the improvements equal to more than 2 additional lanes worth of capacity added (the number of cars that can pass through a section in an hour.) Think of all the stop and go congestion where there are many more merging areas per mile, shorter exit and acceleration ramps, and shorter distances from ramp to stoplight. Compare that to the new design that has fewer and longer entry and exit ramps with longer merge sections and emptying onto the feeder roads further back from the stoplights (more room to decelerate and accelerate.) Plus the more than doubling of the HOV capacity (2 lanes is more efficient than 1, so while lane miles double, the number of cars that can be moved per hour more than doubles) and the at least 50% increase in capacity of the feeder roads. (West of Hwy 6 there will be slightly less capacity because the 4 HOV lanes will be only 2 diamond lanes, but capacity was also less in this section pre-construction.)

But don't believe me on the number of mainlanes in most areas, look for yourself at the actual planning maps that show the number of lanes for each section:

http://www.katyfreeway.org/re-eval.html

http://www.katyfreeway.org/schematics.html

http://www.katyfreeway.org/

Terraserver has aerial photos from 1995 where you can see the earlier lane arrangements (albeit if you squint!)

http://terraserver-usa.com/

Blah, blah, blah, people wanted rail in the middle instead of a tollway. You could have added two extra lanes to the freeway, and one HOV lane, or one extra lane, HOV lane, and rail.

[CDeb]

Blah, blah, blah, people wanted rail in the middle instead of a tollway.

Source?

[desirous]

They added three HOV lanes, not one or two. There was one, and now there will be four.

The diagram is woefully incorrect with respect to mainlanes. There will be five or six mainlanes in each direction for most stretches, and this increases to 8 immediately west of the West Loop interchange. Four is at the narrowest point.

[N Judah]

Those are toll lanes, run by HCTRA. Any purported high-occupancy advantage will be nullified by the fact that there will also be a bunch of other tolled cars on the same roadway. HOV-only lanes get crowded enough...

[Standeck]

Has anyone heard anything about restricting big rigs from driving in the number one or two lanes (number one lane is the leftmost 'fast' lane) when IH-10 widening is complete?

[Vertigo58]

I still can't believe that some motorist are brazen (crazed) enough to just zoom right through these tolls without paying....gratis....gratiuto... on the house....

Cracks me up.

Smoky & The Bandit, Duke's of Hazzard or what y'all?

[Mr. Chenevert]

The diagram is woefully incorrect with respect to mainlanes. There will be five or six mainlanes in each direction for most stretches, and this increases to 8 immediately west of the West Loop interchange. Four is at the narrowest point.

The diagram is 100% accurate from between 610 and highway 6. Check your source.

[ricco67]

Has anyone heard anything about restricting big rigs from driving in the number one or two lanes (number one lane is the leftmost 'fast' lane) when IH-10 widening is complete?

That sounds about right. The program has been successful on various highways in Houston. The reason why I figure that it is not currently implemented is because it isn't viable with all the construction going on. I'm all for it.

[cwrm4]

Does anyone know the actual position of the HOV/Toll exits/entrances relative to BW8?

From the drawings I have seen, which lacked a scale, if you want to go from the HOV/Toll lanes to the Beltway, you must exit the Toll lane, and then in the span of 1/4 mile dive across 4 lanes of I-10 to get onto the Beltway. Going from the Beltway to I-10 HOV/Toll would require similar manuvering.

This situation would seem to create a permanent rush-hour traffic jam around the Beltway. Anyone have any comments?

[CDeb]

Does anyone know the actual position of the HOV/Toll exits/entrances relative to BW8?

From the drawings I have seen, which lacked a scale, if you want to go from the HOV/Toll lanes to the Beltway, you must exit the Toll lane, and then in the span of 1/4 mile dive across 4 lanes of I-10 to get onto the Beltway. Going from the Beltway to I-10 HOV/Toll would require similar manuvering.

This situation would seem to create a permanent rush-hour traffic jam around the Beltway. Anyone have any comments?

According to this schematic:

http://www.katyfreeway.org/images/schematics_pdf/58.pdf

the toll lanes will have their own direct connectors to/from the Sam Houston Tollway.

If this has changed, I haven't seen anything showing it.

[Justin]

According to this schematic:

http://www.katyfreeway.org/images/schematics_pdf/58.pdf

the toll lanes will have their own direct connectors to/from the Sam Houston Tollway.

If this has changed, I haven't seen anything showing it.

You're reading it wrong, those are the old ones they're removing I do believe.

[CDeb]

You're reading it wrong, those are the old ones they're removing I do believe.

Ah, on second glance, you are correct.

[Justin]

From the drawings I have seen, which lacked a scale, if you want to go from the HOV/Toll lanes to the Beltway, you must exit the Toll lane, and then in the span of 1/4 mile dive across 4 lanes of I-10 to get onto the Beltway. Going from the Beltway to I-10 HOV/Toll would require similar manuvering.

This situation would seem to create a permanent rush-hour traffic jam around the Beltway. Anyone have any comments?

It's a little over a mile and a half.

[T 2 THA C]

What are they doing to I-10 from the railroad bridge by Washington to about Shepard The inside lanes are closed on both sides of I-10 are they expanding HOV further or just installing a new middle divider.

[Justin]

What are they doing to I-10 from the railroad bridge by Washington to about Shepard The inside lanes are closed on both sides of I-10 are they expanding HOV further or just installing a new middle divider.

http://www.katyfreeway.net/Contract_G.html

[editor]

This just in...

=-----------------------------

HARRIS COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT

CLARIFIES PLANS FOR KATY FREEWAY EXPANSION

"There Will Be No Tolls On The Katy Freeway," Emmett Says

Harris County Commissioners Court again reassured commuters Tuesday that the improved and expanded Katy Freeway will remain free of tolls when it reopens on Oct. 28. Court members discussed the scheduled reopening during their regularly scheduled meeting this morning and repeated the benefits that motorists can expect from it.

"There will be at least four free lanes in each direction between the 610 Loop and Katy - and in some places as many as six free lanes," explained Art Storey, the county's executive director of public infrastructure. "Compare that to only three free lanes in each direction before the reconstruction."

The middle of the interstate, which formerly consisted of one HOV lane that switched between eastbound and westbound operation, will begin featuring four "managed lanes" - two permanent eastbound lanes and two permanent westbound lanes. All four "managed lanes," running from Loop 610 to State Highway 6, will be free to vehicles with 2 or more occupants from 5 a.m. to 11 a.m. and again from 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. Metro buses and school buses will have free access to these lanes at all times.

The only lanes to be tolled would be the four "managed lanes," which would be available to non-HOV vehicles whose drivers prefer to pay to access the lanes after Spring 2009 through the EZ Tag system. The toll rate, which will be set by Commissioners Court next year, will apply to single-occupant vehicles during HOV hours and to all vehicles during non-HOV hours.

"Unfortunately, there has been a great deal of false information distributed about this project," said Harris County Judge Ed Emmett. "But the truth will prevail, and the truth is that motorists along the Katy Freeway will have more free lanes to choose from, more HOV lanes to choose from and more toll lanes to choose from. That will cut down on congestion and travel times, and that is sorely-needed progress. It may sound complicated now, but drivers are going to be pleasantly surprised by how much easier it is on October 28," he said.

The Katy Freeway and the Katy Freeway Managed Lanes project were built through agreements reached in 2002 and 2003 among the federal government, the Texas Department of Transportation, the Metropolitan Transit Authority and Harris County.