Patio or small yard?

[20thStDad]

My backyard is roughly 25x25, on the north side of a 2 story house between the house and detached garage. Right now there is a simple sidewalk from the garage to the back door, and grass in the yard. Well, mostly weeds because on the north side of a 2 story house there isn't much sun for half of the year. I've tried everything to get rid of the weeds, I'm convinced that in that space they'll always come back. It does still look decent when it's cut.

So my question is this: if we decide to put in a patio area, with paver stones, some planting including a small tree, and a water feature, will we see our money come back to us when we eventually sell? Right now I feel like the backyard is a wasted space. When I grill I have to stick to the little sidewalk. We don't have a dog, and we can't really hang out there in the grass and weeds. When our baby grows up I'd rather she not play in the weeds anyway. It looks decent when I cut it, but still does nothing for us. I'd like to have our living space extended outside, to be able to grill, eat, entertain, and hang out there. Flippers, agents, or home improvers, what have you seen as far as investment return on doing something like this?

Thanks for the input.

[RedScare]

Unless you plan to sell in the next year or so, why live with a crummy unused back yard just because you are worried about resale?

I see it like this. You are talking about 625 square feet of little used space. If I spend a few bucks to make it usable and enjoyable, why wouldn't it add to the resale value? More importantly, if the new patio adds to my enjoyment of the back yard...and didn't break the bank...I don't care about resale, as I get to enjoy it now. This rule might not apply on a big expense, such as a pool, but it is hard to see a $1500-2000 expense (if you do it yourself) being a deal killer. Even the extra expense of having a pro install it is probably worth it, since he'll do some things that us DIYers cannot handle, adding to your enjoyment.

Look through some magazines that have bricked patios. I especially like the New Orleans Garden District look, with old brick, maybe a fountain, and maybe a brick planter or two. Once you have some ideas, get a brick mason to give you a quote (don't forget to account for drainage from a brick patio). If the number works, go for it. If not, look at the possibility of doing just the patio, with the rest of it as a future master plan. I promise, once the first part goes in, you'll be itching to do the rest.

I'd also consider putting in a shade tree with a brick planter around it. Make the planter high enough to sit on. Map out an area where you can put in an outdoor kitchen, even if you do not build it immediately. The point is, if you show future buyers the possibilities, it will sell.

A small yard can be better at times than a large one. It can be made to be intimate, an extra outdoor room. Go take a look at the back patio at Market Square Grill to see what a 20x20 brick patio can look like.

I had an unused side yard of about 8x20 size. The grass barely grew, and it looked like hell. I built an extension of my deck around the corner of the house, taking up much of that unused yard. It looks great, and I doubled the size of my deck. No more mowing either. If you plan it, it will look great. Grass is overrated in its usefulness. It's nice in the right setting, but not required.

Good luck.

[MidtownCoog]

You won't see your "money back" but it might help someone decide to buy your house later on.

I did a HUGE PaveStone patio for less than $4K.

Money well spent.

[20thStDad]

We don't plan to move in the next few years. For me, personally, it will improve my enjoyment of our home in a huge way, I was also just wondering if it had any bad effects on value for some reason.

We've looked through tons of websites and brochures and have seen a lot of really cool ideas. The shade tree is something I am definitely going for, probably something like a red oak. Cooking outdoors is huge for me, I grill 3-5 times a week, sometimes on weekends I smoke things (meat) for 6-7 hours. So I'll get my happiness out of it.

I looked into doing it myself, and while I'm sure I could pull it off, I know that someone else can do it faster and better, and I'd rather not deal with it. We have spoken with the person who has done 2 of our neighbors' yards (same size and layout, we like what they ended up with), and hopefully he can come up with some ideas that we like.

Thanks again for the advice and encouragement!

[longcat]

I've been looking at having a patio put in as well. Is brick substantially cheaper than flagstone? I like the look of flagstone but am worried about the ability to keep a sand set flagstone patio level and getting gravel all over the place from the gaps between the stones. It seems like a brick patio would have basically no gaps between the bricks and not have this problem?

[MidtownCoog]

You can do FlagStone without the gravel mix. They can set it and you don't have to worry about it.

I've seen FlagStone (set) installed around $15.00/sf while PaveStone comes in around $10.00.

[editor]

Since shade is a problem, maybe you can do something that combines both pavers and shade-loving plants like native mosses or something.

If it was my yard, I'd do everything I could to preserve as much green as I could. You can always add a patio later. Going the other way is very difficult.

[sunsets]

We have both - brick right next to the house and flagstone surrounded by gravel farther back in the yard. Frankly, I think I notice the brick shifting more than the flagstones, probably because there's more space between the flagstones. The gravel pretty much stays put (unless I get crazy with the leaf blower). Either way, we have issues with weeds growing up between the bricks and the flagstones, but some time with a sprayer and Roundup can take care of that.

20thStDad, the backyard patio was a real selling point for us when we bought this place. No lawn to mow, no grass to try to keep alive, and it was already full of mature plants and a nice big shade tree. All we had to do was add our patio table and our Weber grill and we had a tropical paradise. I love it.

[cottonmather0]

I agree with Red (did I just say that?)

And even more generally, I think it's a good lesson for most home improvement projects. I think people make a mistake by just looking at all projects as strictly as a money cost/return question - because the return you get from a lot of projects isn't just money, it's increased enjoyment of your house and your property. Especially so when the cost is relatively cheap like that of a brick patio.

It's also a VERY easy DIY project (Easy in the sense that it's cheap and not complicated, that is... it's still pretty hard work). I built a 300 sf patio in my backyard a couple of years ago and it's MUCH better space than it used to be, rather than just unused grass. You also don't have to make it professionally perfect, either, there are grades of fancy for a project like that.

[20thStDad]

We will still have a front yard (slightly bigger than the back), so we're not eliminating all of the green. Trust me, if you saw the space you would kind of go "ugh", unless you happened to have a dog with you who needed to crap right then. That's the only reason I can think to keep it that way.

We definitely aren't looking at this from a pure home value standpoint, we want to do it for enjoyment. I just wanted to check and be sure we weren't doing anything incredibly stupid, and it sounds like we're not. Some people will be attracted by the patio years from now when we sell, others maybe not, but in general I still think it'll be an improvement over the current look.

[RedScare]

Those who may not be impressed by a patio in your small back yard would probably also be turned off by your small grass yard. Those who do not need or want a large yard will likely be impressed by your creation of an outdoor living room by way of a patio and grilling area.

One thing about pavers that I am not crazy about is their uniform appearance. This may be desirable in a new home setting, but in my bungalow, it tends to look too "new". I made a path out of old found bricks next to my driveway that looks much better than the brick pavers that I installed at my driveway entrance. I installed both with a sand base...no mortar. However, sprinkling dry mortar between the cracks, and then wetting it to cause it to set, can give a good "old" look, and be cleaner as well. Just another possibility. Your tastes may vary.

[musicman]

I've been looking at having a patio put in as well. Is brick substantially cheaper than flagstone? I like the look of flagstone but am worried about the ability to keep a sand set flagstone patio level and getting gravel all over the place from the gaps between the stones.

if you have wood floors inside stay clear. they'll be ruined.

[longcat]

if you have wood floors inside stay clear. they'll be ruined.

That's exactly what I'm worried about. I'd rather not have people getting sand/gravel stuck in their shoe treads and then scratching up my floors when they come inside.

[MidtownCoog]

Then don't chinch out. Do FlagStone witout gravel...

[houstonmacbro]

Unless you plan to sell in the next year or so, why live with a crummy unused back yard just because you are worried about resale?

I see it like this. You are talking about 625 square feet of little used space. If I spend a few bucks to make it usable and enjoyable, why wouldn't it add to the resale value? More importantly, if the new patio adds to my enjoyment of the back yard...and didn't break the bank...I don't care about resale, as I get to enjoy it now. This rule might not apply on a big expense, such as a pool, but it is hard to see a $1500-2000 expense (if you do it yourself) being a deal killer. Even the extra expense of having a pro install it is probably worth it, since he'll do some things that us DIYers cannot handle, adding to your enjoyment.

Look through some magazines that have bricked patios. I especially like the New Orleans Garden District look, with old brick, maybe a fountain, and maybe a brick planter or two. Once you have some ideas, get a brick mason to give you a quote (don't forget to account for drainage from a brick patio). If the number works, go for it. If not, look at the possibility of doing just the patio, with the rest of it as a future master plan. I promise, once the first part goes in, you'll be itching to do the rest.

I'd also consider putting in a shade tree with a brick planter around it. Make the planter high enough to sit on. Map out an area where you can put in an outdoor kitchen, even if you do not build it immediately. The point is, if you show future buyers the possibilities, it will sell.

A small yard can be better at times than a large one. It can be made to be intimate, an extra outdoor room. Go take a look at the back patio at Market Square Grill to see what a 20x20 brick patio can look like.

I had an unused side yard of about 8x20 size. The grass barely grew, and it looked like hell. I built an extension of my deck around the corner of the house, taking up much of that unused yard. It looks great, and I doubled the size of my deck. No more mowing either. If you plan it, it will look great. Grass is overrated in its usefulness. It's nice in the right setting, but not required.

Good luck.

If you're not planning on selling any time soon, why not build what you want for YOUR enjoyment.