Tax protests overwhelming system: can't be all handled this yr

[musicman]

my officemate already had his protest this yr but yet i've still not received any paperwork. he told me that he heard tax assessor/collector, paul bettencourt last week say that the number of protests this yr is so overwhelming that they won't have a chance to get to everyone so those who did protest and haven't been contacted may luck out and have theirs frozen (or only go up a small fixed amt like 2%). i still have seen nothing about this in the paper/tv. but was wondering whether any of you have heard a similar story?

[Guest danax]

i still have seen nothing about this in the paper/tv. but was wondering whether any of you have heard a similar story?

No, but it makes me stop wondering why I haven't yet received my protest date, and someone else I spoke to said they hadn't either.

Maybe these attorney groups are partially to blame for the increase in protests. I think the system relied on laziness and procrastination to some extent by the property owners.

Freezing would be fine with me but they can expect me and most of the herd back next year.

[musicman]

Freezing would be fine with me but they can expect me and most of the herd back next year.

Next yr will only be worse. i think with the market changes, sales prices will drop some and well appraisals will be affected as well so even more will protest.

[KatieDidIt]

Well if they stop raised taxes to the maximum every year they wouldn't be overload. There is a surplus, to continue hiking property taxes is shear greed.

I really feel sorry for some of these over 65's that are really getting pinched.

[musicman]

Well if they stop raised taxes to the maximum every year they wouldn't be overload. There is a surplus, to continue hiking property taxes is shear greed.

I really feel sorry for some of these over 65's that are really getting pinched.

well....the seniors have an additional exemption which helps.

it will be interesting to see what happens in the next 2 yrs. with mortgages getting harder to obtain, houses will sit out there longer since less buyers are available. in order to sell prices will have to be lowered. which means that appraisals won't be going up as much, therefore to keep a cash flow going, entities (city of houston, school, etc) will have to raise their rates to maintain the luxurious money flows they've been getting without having to provide justification. raising their rates will definitely turn a few heads but they will have to provide justification.

[jm1fd]

I haven't recieved any info on mine either. A freeze would be WONDERFUL. I got it down to a great number last year.

Well if they stop raised taxes to the maximum every year they wouldn't be overload. There is a surplus, to continue hiking property taxes is shear greed.

I agree that the tax RATE should float down as the appraised/market value increases to keep revenue neutral. On the other hand, I think that appraised/market value should always represent true market value so that everyone is taxed fairly. If your house is worth more, then you should pay more, simple as that. If you don't like it well then buy a cheaper house.

I really feel sorry for some of these over 65's that are really getting pinched.

Oh yes...those over 65 exemptions really hurt....let me tell ya. The previous owner of my house had one and was only paying $200 a year in taxes!

Edited August 7, 2007 by jm1fd

[RedScare]

No, but it makes me stop wondering why I haven't yet received my protest date, and someone else I spoke to said they hadn't either.

Maybe these attorney groups are partially to blame for the increase in protests. I think the system relied on laziness and procrastination to some extent by the property owners.

Freezing would be fine with me but they can expect me and most of the herd back next year.

All court systems rely on laziness or negotiated settlements to function. If everyone had their day in court, the systems would crash.

I had my hearing last year in August. I had sent the protest on the last day. Because I liked talking to those who had their hearings before me, I intentionally waited until the last day again this year. I have not received a hearing date yet, and suspected it was crowded. I have heard of more people protesting this year than ever before.

I suspect that Paul Bettencourt...if he said that...is guessing. I doubt a decision has been made, but discussions are taking place. Regardless, a crowded docket puts the protester in a better position. Know your opponent. If the tax board is in a hurry, they will be more inclined to give in to reasonable demands...even if they do not say so publicly. A protester armed with evidence, and the willingness to wait, signals to the board that THIS hearing may take awhile. By giving in on a potentially long protest, they can handle more short protests. Remember, the appraisal district makes no money on its appraisals. There only goal is to attempt to accurately appraise the property....on time. The protester that understands this will fare better.

[KatieDidIt]

I haven't recieved any info on mine either. A freeze would be WONDERFUL. I got it down to a great number last year.

I agree that the tax RATE should float down as the appraised/market value increases to keep revenue neutral. On the other hand, I think that appraised/market value should always represent true market value so that everyone is taxed fairly. If your house is worth more, then you should pay more, simple as that. If you don't like it well then buy a cheaper house.

Oh yes...those over 65 exemptions really hurt....let me tell ya. The previous owner of my house had one and was only paying $200 a year in taxes!

Well, I am mostly talking about the ones that bought a house around 45k and now its inflated over 750k. While that's great and fab and they are wealthy on paper, the strain of paying taxes on that are hard on most fixed incomes. They really only get a reprieve from school taxes.

[Urbannomad]

Well, I am mostly talking about the ones that bought a house around 45k and now its inflated over 750k. While that's great and fab and they are wealthy on paper, the strain of paying taxes on that are hard on most fixed incomes. They really only get a reprieve from school taxes.

I think that would be a pretty rare if not unheard of exaggeration in the Houston real estate market. If someone bought an old house for 45K and hasn't rebuilt a new mansion or something that's a stretch. Unless maybe their old house sits on a 5 acre tract in downtown. Once someone hits 65 they pay very little taxes bottom line. Additionally the school tax ceiling goes into effect with the over 65 exemption so that never goes up... check your tax bill, your school district is BY FAR where the largest percentage of taxes go.

http://www.hcad.org/Resources/Exemptions/Homeowners.asp

The value of your house sucks... until you are ready to sell and then I bet we would all complain if we got a cheap appraisal. They "could" I suppose, but I doubt there would be an efficient way to do it, create some form of floating tax rate that changes as values increase/decrease. But the market is like any other and always in flux so that would turn into a nightmare. Plus when home values fall again we would all then be mad that our taxes didn't drop as well. It's taking peoples money, justified or not, we're never going to be happy about it.

[DaveMc]

I filed my protest online back in mid-May

I received an email settlement offer yesterday. A reduction of 5%

This is after two consecutive years of 10% increases. (btw my income has only gone up 5% in that same time period)

I'm not sure how some of you can say this system of taxation is fair. It is grossly unfair and unevenly applied!

We know the vast majority of property owners do not protest their taxes. It's not about being lazy. Many working class Joe's can't afford the time to do their research or the time to fight the system.

Any guesses how many seniors don't even know about the over 65 exemption? It is not automatically applied, you have to file for it just like a homestead. It wouldn't suprise me a bit if a good percentage of residence don't even know about the homestead exemption.

[musicman]

I filed my protest online back in mid-May

I received an email settlement offer yesterday. A reduction of 5%

This is after two consecutive years of 10% increases. (btw my income has only gone up 5% in that same time period)

this is good to hear. by chance when you protested did you submit a number of what you thought it should be appraised? or did they just offer a 5% reduction?

[jm1fd]

Any guesses how many seniors don't even know about the over 65 exemption? It is not automatically applied, you have to file for it just like a homestead. It wouldn't suprise me a bit if a good percentage of residence don't even know about the homestead exemption.

Pretty much everybody on the planet loves the chance to "stick it to the man" I don't think very many people are unaware of these deductions. Moreover, HCAD et al don't keep these exemptions a secret...I think HCAD even sent me the paperwork (without me asking) to apply for a homestead.

[musicman]

two neighbors both received electronic settlements in the last few days. one received hers thursday and had to respond by this week another received hers yesterday and has to respond by next week.

one said it was a 5% decrease the other wasn't happy. here's what the HCAD people sent the 2nd one.

what i didn't like it mentions nothing of the appraised value only the market value.

Dear Property Owner:

The Harris County Appraisal District recently began testing an online protest settlement system. Property owners involved in the test now have the option of resolving their value protest online without the time and expense of actually coming to HCAD's office for a hearing.

You recently filed a 2007 protest with the Harris County Appraisal Review Board using the iFile protest system on Account xxx. Harris County Appraisal District staff reviewed your protest and we agree that the market value of your property should be reduced. Our recommendation is as follows:

Market

Old Value $105,701

New Value $103,373

To accept this settlement, you must log in to the iFile system at http://www.hcad.org/iFile . Your unique iFile number is xxxx . To log in and use the system, you will need to enter both your account number and iFile number. Once logged in, select "View Settlement Offer" and follow the instructions on the web pages. Your settlement will be entered and there will be no need for you to appear for a hearing. If you do not agree with the settlement, or if you do not respond by 08/20/2007, the Harris County Appraisal Review Board will set your case for a formal hearing.

Jim Robinson

Chief Appraiser

Harris County Appraisal District

[KatieDidIt]

I think that would be a pretty rare if not unheard of exaggeration in the Houston real estate market. If someone bought an old house for 45K and hasn't rebuilt a new mansion or something that's a stretch. Unless maybe their old house sits on a 5 acre tract in downtown. Once someone hits 65 they pay very little taxes bottom line. Additionally the school tax ceiling goes into effect with the over 65 exemption so that never goes up... check your tax bill, your school district is BY FAR where the largest percentage of taxes go.

http://www.hcad.org/Resources/Exemptions/Homeowners.asp

The value of your house sucks... until you are ready to sell and then I bet we would all complain if we got a cheap appraisal. They "could" I suppose, but I doubt there would be an efficient way to do it, create some form of floating tax rate that changes as values increase/decrease. But the market is like any other and always in flux so that would turn into a nightmare. Plus when home values fall again we would all then be mad that our taxes didn't drop as well. It's taking peoples money, justified or not, we're never going to be happy about it.

Plenty of older neighbors in Tanglewood bought their homes around 45k in in 1960. Those houses, that aren't that updated are well over 750. Some over 900. WHile you may think its rare, it is very common along the western corridor. So even without school taxes that's over 10k a year. Like I said, the houses may be worth a lot, but to an 80 year old couple that hasn't had an annual income for over 15 years, it can be a strain.

I am sure you can find the same story in any price range and socio-economic situation, just the figures are different.

I just wish there was some tax relief with the surplus these hikes have created.

One thing I don't undertand with HCAD is that you can't protest the PROPERTY/LAND value. How the land value of a house backing up to a major road is the same as one that is an interior lot I'll never understand. They will even appraise the land of a Cul-de-Sac lot the same as a corner lot on a semi-busy street.

[sevfiv]

i just made the connection - the appraisals are calculated in much the same way as Mr. Noblet does grades on the calculator:

http://video.aol.com/video/tv-strangers-wi...innings/1726627

Edited August 20, 2007 by sevfiv

[spiderman]

Plenty of older neighbors in Tanglewood bought their homes around 45k in in 1960. Those houses, that aren't that updated are well over 750. Some over 900. WHile you may think its rare, it is very common along the western corridor. So even without school taxes that's over 10k a year. Like I said, the houses may be worth a lot, but to an 80 year old couple that hasn't had an annual income for over 15 years, it can be a strain.

I am sure you can find the same story in any price range and socio-economic situation, just the figures are different.

I just wish there was some tax relief with the surplus these hikes have created.

One thing I don't undertand with HCAD is that you can't protest the PROPERTY/LAND value. How the land value of a house backing up to a major road is the same as one that is an interior lot I'll never understand. They will even appraise the land of a Cul-de-Sac lot the same as a corner lot on a semi-busy street.

Just bring up the point that your lot backs up to a major road, you are correct they will not reduce the lot value, but in my case they reduced the structure value, the bottom line impact is my overall value was reduced by 15%.

[DaSwankOne]

I just wish there was some tax relief with the surplus these hikes have created.

One thing I don't undertand with HCAD is that you can't protest the PROPERTY/LAND value. How the land value of a house backing up to a major road is the same as one that is an interior lot I'll never understand. They will even appraise the land of a Cul-de-Sac lot the same as a corner lot on a semi-busy street.

I am really getting a kick out of these.....nevermind.

Seriously. I hate to be the one to inform you KatieDidIt, but you don't know what you are talking about.

First. HCAD has nothing to do with the tax rate. Each jurisdiction sets a budget (these are City of Houston, Harris County, MUD 15, etc). Then HCAD sets the property values and you have the right to protest these values. After the appraisal roll is certified a tax rate is set based on the approved budget of the different taxing authorities. There is no surplus that is generated by higher property values. The dirty little secret is that if a taxing jurisdiction (let's say City of Houston) would keep the same budget and the aggregate property value in this jurisdiction would double, then the tax rate would be cut in half.

Second. You have every right to protest your land value as well as the value of any improvements on that land. Also, HCAD makes huge adjustments for land on corners and main roads. There are adjustments for size and shape that effect cul-de-sac lots. HCAD uses mass appraisal methods and they can and do make mistakes, but that is what the hearing process is for. This is why most homeowners are successful when they have these kinds of issues. You are also making a mistake by assuming that a lot on a less traveled street should be worth less. There are plenty of people that pay a premium to live on a recognizable street name like Memorial. I would not, but land sales would support this.

The problem that HCAD is experiencing is not with home owners trying to work out values. It is with companies like O'Connor & Associates filing tens of thousands of protest for people whose property values are fine. The vast majority of protest are filed by companies like O'Connor on houses that are between the values of $200,000 - $400,000. This clogs the system (I would argue intentionally) with properties that do not have any special issues and are valued reasonably. It also shifts the tax burden to property owners that can not afford to retain representation (or that no one wants to represent due to the low fee).

I love to hear Mr. Bettencourt complain out of one side of his mouth that HCAD has a clogged system and out of the other side of his mouth he encourages his listeners to file a protest or hire Pat O'Connor. All the while he knows that changing individual values at HCAD does not change the total tax burden of tax payers in Harris County. All it does is shift the burden to those who do not protest.

Edited August 14, 2007 by DaSwankOne

[DaSwankOne]

my officemate already had his protest this yr but yet i've still not received any paperwork. he told me that he heard tax assessor/collector, paul bettencourt last week say that the number of protests this yr is so overwhelming that they won't have a chance to get to everyone so those who did protest and haven't been contacted may luck out and have theirs frozen (or only go up a small fixed amt like 2%). i still have seen nothing about this in the paper/tv. but was wondering whether any of you have heard a similar story?

Unfortunately for you, there is no way in hell that this is going to happen. The law is very specific that everyone has to have their day in front of the ARB. What is even worse news for you is that if you are not scheduled before your taxes are due then you will have to pay taxes on the assessed amount and will not be refunded until 60 days after your hearing.

[musicman]

Unfortunately for you, there is no way in hell that this is going to happen.

tell that to my neighbors. seems it IS happening.

[DaSwankOne]

tell that to my neighbors. seems it IS happening.

Your neighbors might have been offered a settlement based on information that has been presented by other homeowners in your neighborhood. Once the district has set the value for a property they are not going to "freeze" it at last years value. They can offer a settlement through iFile for homeowners in your area, but this is different than freezing value for those who protested. This would be unconstitutional.

[musicman]

Your neighbors might have been offered a settlement based on information that has been presented by other homeowners in your neighborhood. Once the district has set the value for a property they are not going to "freeze" it at last years value. They can offer a settlement through iFile for homeowners in your area, but this is different than freezing value for those who protested. This would be unconstitutional.

of the two i know, one was offered a freeze (same as last yr from the paper work she showed me) , another was offered lower from what she told me. i didn't see her paper work but she was happy cause it was lower.

Edited August 15, 2007 by musicman

[RedScare]

of the two i know, one was offered a freeze (same as last yr from the paper work she showed me) , another was offered lower from what she told me. i didn't see her paper work but she was happy cause it was lower.

I think you are confusing a couple of individual offers to settle by HCAD with a blanket unappealable "freeze" for everyone in the area. There is a huge difference, in that your 2 friends can turn down the offers they have received and proceed to a hearing. DaSwankOne is commenting on the blanket "freeze" that has been mentioned. In that scenario, HCAD would assign a value and no one could appeal it. THAT is not allowed under current law. There is nothing preventing HCAD from attempting to settle disputes in a less time consuming manner by sending offers of settlement by email. And, there is also nothing preventing the email recipients from turning down those offers, or countering with their own offer by email. In fact, if it reduces the number of homeowners at the hearings, it is to be applauded.

[musicman]

I think you are confusing a couple of individual offers to settle by HCAD with a blanket unappealable "freeze" for everyone in the area. There is a huge difference, in that your 2 friends can turn down the offers they have received and proceed to a hearing. DaSwankOne is commenting on the blanket "freeze" that has been mentioned. In that scenario, HCAD would assign a value and no one could appeal it. THAT is not allowed under current law. There is nothing preventing HCAD from attempting to settle disputes in a less time consuming manner by sending offers of settlement by email. And, there is also nothing preventing the email recipients from turning down those offers, or countering with their own offer by email. In fact, if it reduces the number of homeowners at the hearings, it is to be applauded.

i'm just talking electronic settlements at a frozen or lower value which is being done. I concur no blanket freezes.

[Reefmonkey]

Wow, I waited until May 29 to file my protest, and got my date the beginning of July. Figures I'd be one of the ones with the bad luck to actually get a date. Would have been nice to have mine frozen. Maybe the fact that I had just bought the house the year before and they were raising my appraisal value by 49% had something to do with their urgency to shut my protest down. Still got it below the nearest 100K mark, which I felt was a psychological victory and makes it easier next year for the ARB to psychologically accept an even lower dip when I protest again next year.

The process really made me feel I had been bent over. The HCAD representative downright lied during the hearing. One thing I pointed out was vinyl siding in the back which needed to be repaired - he tried to claim that my house only had one 8 foot wall of siding, when the entire back of the house and garage are vinyl siding. The other thing is he compared my 1 story house to 2 story houses in my neighborhood with 500 sq feet more floorplan than me, which sold at the same price I was being appraised for. I wrote a letter to the HCAD taxpayer Liason Officer, in which I clearly stated I had no complaints about the outcome of the hearing, only his dishonest behavior. OF course I received some pat form letter that did not address my allegations of dishonesty, merely justified the decision of the ARB.

[Reefmonkey]

A protester armed with evidence, and the willingness to wait, signals to the board that THIS hearing may take awhile. By giving in on a potentially long protest, they can handle more short protests.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but when I protested this year, every piece of paper I was given, every verbal instruction I was given told me the ARB was only going to give 15 minutes to every hearing, no matter what, so I don't know how one could threaten them with a long and difficult hearing. If you know a way to make them give more time to a hearing, I would love to know about it for next year.

[musicman]

The process really made me feel I had been bent over. The HCAD representative downright lied during the hearing. One thing I pointed out was vinyl siding in the back which needed to be repaired - he tried to claim that my house only had one 8 foot wall of siding, when the entire back of the house and garage are vinyl siding. The other thing is he compared my 1 story house to 2 story houses in my neighborhood with 500 sq feet more floorplan than me, which sold at the same price I was being appraised for. I wrote a letter to the HCAD taxpayer Liason Officer, in which I clearly stated I had no complaints about the outcome of the hearing, only his dishonest behavior. OF course I received some pat form letter that did not address my allegations of dishonesty, merely justified the decision of the ARB.

did you have pictures or other visible evidence that the three board members could make an educated decision on? the two times i went before he board i was able to get what i requested because i had pictures to show while the HC rep was just spouting off numbers. but you have to having something that the board members can read/see.

[Reefmonkey]

did you have pictures or other visible evidence that the three board members could make an educated decision on? the two times i went before he board i was able to get what i requested because i had pictures to show while the HC rep was just spouting off numbers. but you have to having something that the board members can read/see.

I did have pictures, and I think it carried some weight, though when it came to refuting his false assertion about the extent of the siding, I did not have pictures to prove this, so I just had to say it. Since it was my first time to file a protest, I definitely learned much about the process and how to be even better prepared for next year. Every square inch of my house will be photographed to disprove any false comments by the HCAD rep. Like I said, I didn't really feel angry about the outcome of the hearing, it is about what I expected for this year, being so close to the date I bought the house, I wasn't expecting a lot. It was just the HCAD rep's lying that made me angry. The fact that they did not even acknowledge my complaint about his behavior made it more so.

[RedScare]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but when I protested this year, every piece of paper I was given, every verbal instruction I was given told me the ARB was only going to give 15 minutes to every hearing, no matter what, so I don't know how one could threaten them with a long and difficult hearing. If you know a way to make them give more time to a hearing, I would love to know about it for next year.

I may have given the wrong impression. I was referring to the informal hearing, but it can also apply to the formal. Frankly, they don't even want to waste 15 minutes on each case. Showing them you are prepared and knowledgable makes them listen to your argument, just as in any adversarial proceeding. I have never had to take more than 15 minutes in these hearings. I concede those things that are irrelevant or cannot be reasonably changed (such as land value), and go straight for the good stuff, armed with photos and comps. Not saying you did not do the same, but you can imagine how many protesters go in with lame arguments about the "greedy government", "not fair", etc. If you've ever listened to citizens representing themselves in traffic court, you know what I am talking about.

The best advice I can give to anyone is to not make this personal. These hearings, though informal, are no different than pleading a case in court. Know your opponent, and what HE thinks is important. Then, provide reasonable and rational arguments, supported by evidence, of their mistake. That's it. The better prepared you are to refute their argument, the more likely you are to win. I am only appraised at $1,000 more than when I bought my house. My friend in Woodland Heights had her hearing yesterday, and she is $500 lower than what she paid for her house 5 years ago.

[musicman]

The best advice I can give to anyone is to not make this personal. These hearings, though informal, are no different than pleading a case in court. Know your opponent, and what HE thinks is important. Then, provide reasonable and rational arguments, supported by evidence, of their mistake. That's it. The better prepared you are to refute their argument, the more likely you are to win. I am only appraised at $1,000 more than when I bought my house. My friend in Woodland Heights had her hearing yesterday, and she is $500 lower than what she paid for her house 5 years ago.

I can already see the "redscare and assoc" literature arriving in the mail next season.

[Reefmonkey]

I may have given the wrong impression. I was referring to the informal hearing, but it can also apply to the formal. Frankly, they don't even want to waste 15 minutes on each case. Showing them you are prepared and knowledgable makes them listen to your argument, just as in any adversarial proceeding. I have never had to take more than 15 minutes in these hearings. I concede those things that are irrelevant or cannot be reasonably changed (such as land value), and go straight for the good stuff, armed with photos and comps. Not saying you did not do the same, but you can imagine how many protesters go in with lame arguments about the "greedy government", "not fair", etc. If you've ever listened to citizens representing themselves in traffic court, you know what I am talking about.

The best advice I can give to anyone is to not make this personal. These hearings, though informal, are no different than pleading a case in court. Know your opponent, and what HE thinks is important. Then, provide reasonable and rational arguments, supported by evidence, of their mistake. That's it. The better prepared you are to refute their argument, the more likely you are to win. I am only appraised at $1,000 more than when I bought my house. My friend in Woodland Heights had her hearing yesterday, and she is $500 lower than what she paid for her house 5 years ago.

I see, thanks.

Yeah, I just stuck to physical issues for which I had pictures - damaged siding, driveway that needs to be replaced, brickwork that needs repair, my crazy next-door neighbor's two derelict cars in her driveway which runs along my property line. This last item aroused the most interest - from the man, who seemed to be in charge and did all the talking. He was the only one to ask me any questions. The two ladies said nothing and looked bored. I was very polite, even with the HCAD rep, even after he started off his testimony with a really sarcastic, accusatory tone and pretty much maintained that tone throughout. Then at the end, the ARB gave their decision, and I thanked them for their time, and left. I figure I might run into one or all of these members when I protest next year, and if they remember me at all, I want them to remember me as the polite one.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Reefmonkey