Houston Gets A Subway?

[ssullivan]

I agree with the reliability issue. Fortunately I really don't think Metro has a major problem here. I haven't had an issue with problems on the rail line since early last spring, shortly after service started.

As for bus reliability, I've found it to be excellent. Only once have I been on a bus with problems and we still made it over to the TMC Transit Center, which is the end of that route's line, on time. The problem was the ignition died every time we stopped at a traffic light and the driver had to restart the engine. But we made it. Yes I've seen buses broken down before, but considering on a weekday Metro is operating a fleet of over 1600 buses, if reliability was a big issue you'd see broken down buses every day all over the city. I ride Metro at least once a week and as I said, I've never had a major issue with bus service.

[GovernorAggie]

What I can't understand is all the complaing about the "type" of Houston's rail. At least rail exists here now. That's more than can be said for places like San Antonio and Orlando and Detroit. Rail will improve here because Houston is a visionary city--one that you should never say that something can't happen. Let's not forget that the founders made this city a port, even though it is really several miles inland.

[Parrothead]

Good lord, what a coffee clatch we have going on here.

I agree with 27 & Midtown Coog in many ways.

Subway--NO way.

Light rail--done right, why not?

Commuter rail--Uh, we needed this YESTERDAY!!

Money being no object, I like the old Lanier-esque idea of a monorail. A really nifty-looking and efficient monorail linking all the major business and residential arteries would kick this city into high gear and put Houston back on the map as the leader in this great state of ours!

[bachanon]

uhhhhh, lanier helped to kill monorail. did you mean "whitmire-esque"?

[Parrothead]

My bad.....thanks for the correction. I always thought he liked the idea. Hrm.

[kjb434]

I would love to see light rail connect closer communities to one another and a monorail/comuter rail connect larger distant communities. The advantage to monorail is that it needs very little right-of-way except for its stations. And if the stations are done correctly, it could be very efficient and space saving too.

A monorail can rundown a median of a road or the between teh main lanes of a freeway and feeder roads.

[marc]

I finally got the pleasure of visiting Dallas and riding their subway and realized that why can't Houston do this. And i don't wanna hear about the flooding issue because that didn't stop us from building the largest tunnel system in the world!

Perhaps i was a little jealous of Dallas because in many cases, Dallas seems so much more advanced than Houston but when i read this, i saw a light of some hope!

IS METRO EXPANING UNDERGROUND?

11:19 AM CDT on Thursday, June 24, 2004

By Jeremy Rogalski / 11 News

Many of our freeways are above ground, but could Houston

[C2H]

Wow.  I guess you were not around when Allison payed us a little visit.  If I am not mistaken, New Orleans has NEVER seen anything like what Allison did to Houston.  I am well qualified to talk about flooding....I was one of those whose homes took in water.  I regularly have to plan a "getting home strategy" just to get home without driving my car into the rivers we call streets.  Edgebrook, my part of town, is a regular on the television news when floods happen.  So, maybe, just maybe, we actually DO have the worst flooding problem here.  Large 18-wheelers completely invisible underneath the flood water levels on the freeway?  Remember I-10?  Remember 288? Remember 59?  Remember Allison?  Remember the Alamo? I dont know of any other major city that gets it the way we do.  I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure if i'd be so quick to say that Houston has it so much worse than alot of other cities as far as natural disasters. Florida this past October must of really been bad if many towns had to be evacuated in result of Hurricane Ivan. And tropical storms like Allison aren't reported to occurr very often. The reality of it is is that there's always ways around things. Man's technology is magnificant. Houston could support a subway or if not elevated rail

[citykid09]

I would like to see:

a subway downtown

Elevated rail in uptown

subway through Montrose

subway in midtown

ground level out side of the Galleria area going towards beltway 8

[bruce_oneal]

i lived in dc for many years. they build SUBWAYS where it makes sense and above ground (not really street level, but raised) where it makes sense in others. i was there upon completion of several lines and it took years ... decades actually. but you make a decision and do it.

we keep arguing points about above or underground, meanwhile slipping further and further behind in mass transit progress that other cities seem to be making.

freeways and cars just can't keep up with the booming population explosion here.

i've also wondered why we cannot just EXPAND our existing RAIL system to just accomodate new passenger trains. houston has lots of rail lines running all over the place. why not just beef up those lines, throw some commuter trains on them, transit stops where folks can transfer to buses, etc. and do that?

there used to be a line that ran down westpark (opposite the summit, now lakewood church) and it is completely removed. there are lines that run out south main, north houston, I-10 (i believe, or it used to). i'm even sure there are lines that run out to 59 and 45 ... there are lines that run south all the way up almeda (think 288) ... has this ever even been considered? is it even remotely possible?

i think we should think very creatively.

[bruce_oneal]

What I can't understand is all the complaing about the "type" of Houston's rail.  At least rail exists here now.  That's more than can be said for places like San Antonio and Orlando and Detroit.  Rail will improve here because Houston is a visionary city--one that you should never say that something can't happen.  Let's not forget that the founders made this city a port, even though it is really several miles inland.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

several? how about many miles inland.

[editor]

several?  how about many miles inland.

The Allen brothers used a technique for location their city that has been used dozens of times before by pioneers and early American settlers -- drive a boat upstream. When you can't go any father, you're home. This was the same technique used to locate Hartford, Albany, Harrisburgh, Charleston (WV), Buffalo, and other places. In thier heydays they, too, were considered port cities because they were the gateways to the open sea. Some of these are still port cities, though not anywhere near what they used to be (Charleston, West Virginia is still very active in shipping coal and chemicals down the Kanawha to the Ohio to the Mississippi to New Orleans). The fact that Houston remains a port city and has managed to expand into a massive port is because it is so close to the open water, not because it is so far away.

[VelvetJ]

i lived in dc for many years.

[bruce_oneal]

Lets say, hypothetically, that all the rail we could ever imagine was built. I'm talking metro AND commuter lines all through out the city & metro area. At most, what percent of the population would the rail serve then? Would it still even be one percent?

I guess my point is, that I agree with your line of thought concerning our politicians & oil, but I don't want to believe the logic that they would do as such. If true, then it shows them thinking it would make a difference in the long run, when I don't think it would - to the oil companies that is.

What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, WHEN gas hits $3.50 a gallon i DO want to have an alternative mode of transportation. i do not want to be BOUND to my car.

[jt16]

I'd rather buy a hybrid than rely solely on rail for my transportation.

[citykid09]

bruce_oneil, you make is sound soooooooo simple don't you? The truth is, it WAS that simple. You are correct, there were rail lines that ran along most of our freeways. I can't tell you the number of times I would cringe in the late 90's passing those rail lines along the Katy Freeway and out Westpark and watching them being removed and replaced, or soon to be, with toll roads.

But here is some food for thought. Bruce think about it, Houston is the oil capital of the world. We elect politicians who know this. It is my personal opinion, a few of our powerful representatives know some of the heads of these oil companies. Now how would it look to have trains zooming past all of those oil companies on the Katy Freeway, in the oil capital of the world? That just wouldn't LOOK right, correct? How would it look for thousands upon thousands of citizens of the oil capital of the world, choosing a way to commute that did not involve gasoline? Who would want a infrastructure that allowed massive amounts of people to live along rail lines, resulting in less gasoline being used in the oil capital of the world?

The removal of rail lines along our freeways, the history of profound organized fights against rail in this city for so long, and the "interesting" location of Minute Maid Park..........was there a conspiracy happening in Houston? Was all of this done on purpose in the oil capital of the world? Personally, I think so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know your right I never thought about that.

[kjb434]

^^What?^^

The above quote is way off base. First off, the gasoline business is such a small low profit margin part of the oil and gas industry that it's amazing they still produce it. Main reason oil companies still produce galsoline is because so many people want to use and depend on it.

The profits of big oil come from the thousands of other uses for oil that don't concern the car. If everyone would stop driving cars and switch to rail mass transit, the oil companies wouldn't take a big hit. It actually would free the resources they had to spend on gasoline to make other much needed products from oil. Many of which are recyclable and in high deman also.

About rail removals. The rail along Westpark, although gone still provides a space for future light rail. The Wepart Tollway's odd configuration was in large part to accommodate future light rail. The rail removal from the Katy Freeway is allowing for a more efficient layout of the new road system and a secure place for future rail. The ultimate goal of metro is to replace the center toll portion of the Katy with rail. The current park and ride locations that tie into the HOV lanes will not be sold off, but left there to eventually become rail stations. The ramps will be removed though. You park and walk a pedestrian bridge to the rail stop in the center of the freeway. Washington DC has a couple of these out in the suburbs where the subway rides above ground.

Many of the abandonded rail corridors are being bought by TxDOT and then transfered to HCTRA. HCTRA is not planning to use all of these corridors, but is holding onto them for Metro which has a much tighter cash flow situation. Also, HCTRA can hand it over to Metro will little cost since the local entities techinally already purchased the right of way. Its a little convoluted, but it is ensure the corridors for future use.

The belief that big oil is purposefully stalling and ensuring that we depend on gasoline is a big myth. They make much more money from none gasoline business that they are not concerned with this sector declining. The people that get hurt from more fuel efficient cars and people who decide to ride buses or rail is the gas stations. They lose a big portion of their customer base.

[N Judah]

But even if profit margins are as low as you say, wouldn't the fact that passenger vehicles currently account for 40 percent of our petroleum consumption make up for it?

[kjb434]

be wary of that 40% number. Passenger vehicles is a very broad term. It can apply to airplanes which are passenger vehicles. It uses a different type of fuel which is extremely expensive.

I don't know if I believe that 40% is anywhere near correct for passenger cars/trucks/suvs. It's closer to 25% as reported by the EPA, USDOT, and Energy Department Reports back in the late 90s. Unless we dramatically increased car usage since then at an unbelievable rate, I don't think the number has gottem much higher.

Also, no matter how much is used for vehicular gas, the margin is still small for profit. The operating expenses are so high. Imaging having a 50s era car that is required to meet todays pollution standards but you are not allowed updated the engine or put in a new one. This is how the oil companies have to operate. They can't just expand, build a new, or renovated a refinery to meet demand to help lower prices. Also, several states have set required blends of gasoline that make the production more exspensive. Often a refinery has to make a blend, then stop, make another blend, then stop to go back. Turnaround times on the facilities cost and they can't produce enough for demand. The fact that they can't improve the technology for gasoline production because environmental law prevents it, requires the oil companies to continue to spend money on keeping old facilities running. In Europe and many countries, new refineries get built because they can produce gas much more efficiently with less pollution and at a lower cost. If you think Europe has high gas prices now, imagine it under our environmental regulations.

[citykid09]

Does anyone know the latest on the subway plan? or way this just something they considerd?

[bruce_oneal]

you mean the rail system?

seems to have had a few other community debates a few months ago, but i have not heard much about it lately. i think they are still hashing out the legalities of bait-n-switch, as several areas were promised one thing, and now they are talking of delivering something else to them.

[citykid09]

you mean the rail system?

seems to have had a few other community debates a few months ago, but i have not heard much about it lately. i think they are still hashing out the legalities of bait-n-switch, as several areas were promised one thing, and now they are talking of delivering something else to them.

Yeah, but they had plans to put the lightrail in a subway tunnel, It was about a year ago I thing, and they had pictures and everything?

[bruce_oneal]

Yeah, but they had plans to put the lightrail in a subway tunnel, It was about a year ago I thing, and they had pictures and everything?

i did not hear that one. i am sure someone on this list knows though.

this is a very SMART and up-to-date bunch of folks.

[TJones]

We don't have a subway in Houston, for the same reason we don't have basements in our houses. The land is too wet, and too prone to hurricanes. Houston is just a step above sealevel, and this whole town was built on a bog. Just not a safe place for underground transit. You might recall how all the tunnels downtown got flooded out when Allison hit a few years ago. I think a couple of people actually got trapped and drowned.

[bruce_oneal]

We don't have a subway in Houston, for the same reason we don't have basements in our houses. The land is too wet, and too prone to hurricanes. Houston is just a step above sealevel, and this whole town was built on a bog. Just not a safe place for underground transit. You might recall how all the tunnels downtown got flooded out when Allison hit a few years ago. I think a couple of people actually got trapped and drowned.

but does that argument really hold true. i mean, heck, new york is an island and they have a fabulous tunnel and underground.

[YakuzaIce]

Not all of the tunnels flooded I believe. Also new measures have been taken after Allison that will likely keep that from happening again.

[RedScare]

Bull____. There are tunnels and basements all over downtown. The downtown tunnels flooded during Allison because a wall to the parking garage under the Albert Thomas Convention Center (now Bayou Place) collapsed, allowing Buffalo Bayou to rush in. The wall was repaired, the tunnels cleaned, and they are in use to this day.

[citykid09]

The thread way posted on here, It had pictures and all the info on there. Mabe it was on the original HAIF, before it crashed.

[RedScare]

So, tell me again why we can't build subways in Houston?

[TJones]

Bull____. There are tunnels and basements all over downtown. The downtown tunnels flooded during Allison because a wall to the parking garage under the Albert Thomas Convention Center (now Bayou Place) collapsed, allowing Buffalo Bayou to rush in. The wall was repaired, the tunnels cleaned, and they are in use to this day.

Yes, Red, I know they are, but digging under downtown to install a subway, would make the ground even more unstable underneath the buildings. It is true my friend. The sedimentary levels are different here than in New York. You'll notice no subways in Miami either, same type of dirt. I wouldn't BS you Red. It is residential housing code that no basements be built, because of coastal flooding.