What Is Your Geographic Definition Of Cypress

[Avabamse]

I have no problem with defining the "Cypress" area as the Cypress-Fairbanks School District. The school district was the first time historically that the populated area was given any institutionalized definition.

I don't know if Cy-Fair ISD preceded the City of Cypress as an institutional definition. Actually, according to the CFISD website, Cypress defined the origin of the district, of course, before it merged with Fairbanks.

My point all along has been that in determining the value of reincorporation of Cypress (which is the basis for this discussion), we cannot make too much of a leap in what the City of Cypress's corporation limits (boundaries) was at the time of discontinuation of its corporate charter relative to what the general regional amorphous concept of Cypress is today, which may or may not be CFISD.

I live near the corner of Spring-Cypress and Champion Forest, which is in Klein ISD. For ex, when mr. foolsball mails me a Christmas card, he can put the address as Spring, TX or Klein, TX or Cypress, TX. Of course, part of the reason is that the zip code will get his bundle of well-wishes to me. Yet, my local post office has a sign that says Klein, TX, which obviously only exists as far as the USPS is concerned.

[Double L]

That article doesn't mention anything of a city of Cypress ever existing. It basically tells that as the area populated, the first institutional recognition of the neighborhood was the school district.

We may have several ways to determine the boundaries of a possibly incorporated city of Cypress, including the best possible cost/benefit ratio to the tax income/tax expenditure that the land area would give us and also the opinions of the people in the area as whether they would want to be a part of the city.

[Avabamse]

That article doesn't mention anything of a city of Cypress ever existing. It basically tells that as the area populated, the first institutional recognition of the neighborhood was the school district.

We may have several ways to determine the boundaries of a possibly incorporated city of Cypress, including the best possible cost/benefit ratio to the tax income/tax expenditure that the land area would give us and also the opinions of the people in the area as whether they would want to be a part of the city.

We are really debating details here on whether the area or ISD defined the city first. My impression from the link was the mention of the train linking Houston to Cypress in 1856 (same time as the Post Office opening). The Cypress School opened in 1884 as built by the "people of Cypress". I suppose either chicken or egg was first, but whichever was first was small and not stretching the width of CFISD's present boundaries.

I don't exactly follow what you are saying in your second paragraph. Perhaps you can clarify what point you are making. The cost/benefit ratio will be severely restricted by Houston's legal annexation of much of the present quality commercial (sales tax) base for the key areas, i.e. off of the freeway corridors. Also, I would never presume that people would want to be incorporated. I am presently fine with the idea that I live in an unincorporated part of Harris Co. As Niche mentioned, many residents that have low or no MUD taxes will not want to average their property tax burden with brand new / high MUD tax communities. Furthermore, I would not count on the populace to define (via opinions?) the area that would be the re-incorporated city. This would be like herding cats, but perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote.

[JustinUther]

Has anybody looked at the HCAD map? Somebody mentioned this on the Spring thread. We may toss around where we think the boundaries should be, this map shows the county divided by school districts. Here is a link to it.

http://www.hcad.org/maps/default.asp

[Avabamse]

Has anybody looked at the HCAD map? Somebody mentioned this on the Spring thread. We may toss around where we think the boundaries should be, this map shows the county divided by school districts. Here is a link to it.

http://www.hcad.org/maps/default.asp

I am not trying to be difficult here, but the map that you linked was just the various school districts. In other words, some of Spring Branch ISD is in the City of Houston, but other parts of it are in the Memorial Villages. Other districts (for ex, Klein, Aldine, Cy-Fair) all have property in other incorporated cities. Cy-Fair ISD is partly located inside the City of Houston and City of Jersey Village. Parts of Houston ISD on the southside are not in the City of Houston.

We should be looking at the map (MTFP) that you previously mentioned as a realistic starter for discussion of what could Cypress be. Obviously, all of the Cypress potential land is absorbed by Houston's ETJ and LPAs, but one could possibly analogize a rough boundary from possible contemporary cities, such as Tomball, Katy or Sugar Land.

On a separate note, there are some funky looking ISD boundaries. I am really surprised to see the size of Aldine, but Spring is so small it should consider merging with Klein to leverage resources / tax base.

[mrfootball]

Spring ISD is somewhat deceiving because of its odd shape. It comes to a point around the intersection of FM 1960 and I-45 then expands into an area roughly the size of the Southern half.

http://www.hcad.org/maps/ISD/Spring.gif

Edited April 23, 2007 by mrfootball

[JustinUther]

I am not trying to be difficult here, but the map that you linked was just the various school districts.

We should be looking at the map (MTFP) that you previously mentioned as a realistic starter for discussion of what could Cypress be.

Oh, I know. I just thought that the map showing the school districts was nice to have because it is the first one I've seen. Tomball ISD doesn't show a map on their website but instead lists the subdivisions served. Cy-Fair ISD does show a map but it is kind of vague. This map shows the lines and we can see the detail down to the street level.

I agree that we should be using the most accurate resources available to base this exercise on. There is the MTFP, Key map, ZIP code maps and, also now, planning maps that developers have published on their websites to describe new construction that we should take into consideration when talking about these areas that are quite ill-defined.

[JustinUther]

Also, I would never presume that people would want to be incorporated. I am presently fine with the idea that I live in an unincorporated part of Harris Co. ... Furthermore, I would not count on the populace to define (via opinions?) the area that would be the re-incorporated city. This would be like herding cats, but perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote.

I think that would be a good idea that could be done easily - ask the populace.

We can assume several things here such as the fact that most people will reject raising their taxes. We think, based on the conversation here and listening to the grumblings of our neighbors, that most home owners do want zoning of some fashion. Many would like to have some local law enforcement that can and will actually do something about bandit signs. Residents are asking for someone to take complaints to, maybe it is time for some local government. But really, how do we know unless we ask?

I propose that we set up a poll. Distribute the poll either to the HOA's to further disseminate to their residents or directly thru the home address to the resident property owner. (Notice the specification that the property owner is also a resident of the area under consideration and we do not take opinions from long distance landlords or their renters.) Ask questions about relevant issues that a municipality would address. Then we can use the results to see which areas are in favor of incorporation and which ones are not. This can not be a one question poll. "Are you in favor of incorporation? - Y/N", would automatically cause people to assume that it is a simple question of taking money from them or not. We can see that by the discussion here so far that the question is far from being that simple. The questions will have to be varied enough to get a good idea of what people feel is important to them.

[TheNiche]

I propose that we set up a poll. Distribute the poll either to the HOA's to further disseminate to their residents or directly thru the home address to the resident property owner. (Notice the specification that the property owner is also a resident of the area under consideration and we do not take opinions from long distance landlords or their renters.) Ask questions about relevant issues that a municipality would address. Then we can use the results to see which areas are in favor of incorporation and which ones are not. This can not be a one question poll. "Are you in favor of incorporation? - Y/N", would automatically cause people to assume that it is a simple question of taking money from them or not. We can see that by the discussion here so far that the question is far from being that simple. The questions will have to be varied enough to get a good idea of what people feel is important to them.

If you're serious about this, I recommend you contact a political consultancy/market research firm to draw up a questionaire and conduct phone- or mail-based polling. Having a third party do this will greatly reduce any accusations of bias. Be sure that they can work with a good lawyer that has experience in municipal issues. The lawyer will be better able to anticipate problems than you or I will, and his input might be used to come up with better survey questions. Once you've got the data, you can break it up geographically, draw out areas on a map that responded most favorably as areas that should be included in the proposed city limits. Then get the lawyer to direct the effort further.

Be prepared to pay $$$, the whole way through. You'll probably need to solicit donations, and that might be a question asked of people who respond favorably in the poll.

Edited April 24, 2007 by TheNiche

[mrfootball]

Agreed, that much of the proposed 'City of Cypress' will be shaped by the people who voice support. We can take these polls and produce MAPINFO dot maps to find out where the most support is. Where people are most likely to vote to support such a referendum. If I'm not mistaken, you have to reach a certain percentage of support from the local populace in order to incorporate an area.

Edited April 24, 2007 by mrfootball

[Avabamse]

[Avabamse] Just a couple of quick notes

We think, based on the conversation here and listening to the grumblings of our neighbors, that most home owners do want zoning of some fashion.

[Avabamse] I would never assume that most want zoning. Houstonians have traditionally voted down zoning, which lead to the evolution of so many large, master planned communities. Personally, I really do not want to see wide-scale zoning because I don't believe Planners have a better idea of what the market wants in relation to the 'invisible hand' of capitalism (with reasonable / best interest govt regulation). Please see the Houston Strategies blog for great thoughts on this.

Many would like to have some local law enforcement that can and will actually do something about bandit signs.

[Avabamse] Bandit signs do suck, but don't we have two layers of local law enforcement in the incorporated county - Constables and Sheriffs? I think this issue would be addressed at a county legislative level to ban bandit signs, similar to the slow developing success of billboard phase-outs. Having police pick up these signs is not how I want my money spent.

Residents are asking for someone to take complaints to, maybe it is time for some local government.

[Avabamse] Harris Co is the local govt in the unincorporated areas. As I mentioned previously, if I have a pothole in front of my house, I need to call the county govt since the county owns the street and easement. A redundant city govt will not guarantee this being fixed any sooner. If improved govt performance is the real issue, shouldn't we just demand more efficiency and competence by our govt officials?

I like the fact that you are solution-oriented in attempting to resolving a possible question. Yet, can the question exist, if in reality the area of Cypress is already legally claimed by Houston? Or are we staying theoretical here?

Additionally, I don't want to frustrate you by debating a newly incorporate city's value point-by-point (which I seem to be doing above). Yet, I still have yet to discover what the expected end value of having the City of Cypress is in relation to the current local govt of Harris Co. My impression is that some people want a City of Cypress just because it is not the City of Houston. Can you enlighten me as to what exactly a local city govt will do that you cannot have done already by the existing govt agencies? Please be mindful that an answer such as "building a brand new sports arena or arts center" means more taxes, which does not real preclude the same initiative being accomplished by the current govt agency.

By the way, Niche has the right suggestion on executing the nuances of a poll since you are facing numerous legal hurdles and risks. For ex, who in the hell expected a freakin' lawsuit over where Metro lays its light rail tracks? I am waiting for the next "special purpose / me first" group to sue Metro for evaluating a change in a bus route. I can see it now, "the #42 bus has a sign that says Westheimer, but it occasionally turns on to Post Oak, that is unfair!" Just remember there are those people out there.

[JustinUther]

I like the fact that you are solution-oriented in attempting to resolving a possible question. Yet, can the question exist, if in reality the area of Cypress is already legally claimed by Houston? Or are we staying theoretical here?

My main point in all of this is that Houston has not legally claimed Cypress (or the area east of Katy or south of Tomball either) but by the existence of the ETJ it has the option to grow into these areas and it has not. I think this is a disservice to the residents in these areas. Either due to the financial burden or the impact on the political geography COH has demonstrated that it doesn't want to wholly annex areas outside the city limits. But COH does see the advantage to collecting sales taxes in these areas by the use of LPA's in the commercial areas. Take another look at the MTFP map. Granted, the argument is that COH splits the profit with MUD's that they have these agreements with. By the way, these LPA's do have an expiration date and the MUD does not have to renew the contract at that time. There is legal and then there is right and wrong.

And yes I think at this point we are staying theoretical at this time. My thread on pro's and con's was started to explore the concept. I hear grumblings form my neighbors and some from posters on this site so I thought I'd ask. I was happy enough living in Harris County and outside Houston's city limits until I found out about LPA's.

Edited April 24, 2007 by JustinUther

[mrfootball]

Benefits of Incorporation:

1) Community Identity - there are too many benefits here to list.

2) Provide a Voice/Advocate for the Community's interests

a) Transportation issues (Metro, planning, etc)

b ) Education and Investment (i.e. UH's failed NW Harris County campus bid - stronger voice for area interests, with the ability to create incentives to attract investment and other worthwhile things that benefit the community).

c) Quality of Life (i.e. Greenspaces, Parks, Trees, Crime, Pollution, etc), having a stronger voice when it comes to receiving funding/appropriations from a State/Federal level. Having people who are more 'invested' in the area's long term outlook, creating value for the residents.

3) Land Use Issues (i.e. stricter zoning and development controls, enforced landscape regulations - Harris County has them, but they do not enforce...add to that the glut of empty shopping centers, etc.) It's no secret that developers will do the least amount of work necessary to satisfy the lax requirements made of them by Harris County. After awhile it tends to show. Rather than being the 'low-fruit' on the tree, attracting half-ass developers looking to make a quick buck and get out, we can enforce standards and regulations that will ensure the area's long-term value, instituting smarter land use controls. (this is nothing new, this is what most cities & towns do).

4) Signage Issues (i.e. flashing LED signs, billboards, varying heights and setbacks, bandit signs, etc)

5) Accountability. Most people in unincorporated Harris County have no idea how to get anything done at the County level...what's worse, County services aren't designed to be very user-friendly so if you've got a complaint about something, it's rare you'll get much follow through. Harris County is huge, and we've got a Precinct System that is ill-equipped to handle the needs of the communities they serve. Add to that, the disjointed and meandering boundaries of the precincts make no geographic sense. I suppose an alternative to incorporation would be Precincts that represent each sub-region of town (ie. West Houston, Cy-Fair, Spring, Kingwood, etc?) that have ordinance powers...As it is now, they don't. Do they each have to be so big and cumbersome? Having a small local gov't where local citizens are elected and look out for their community is one of the most basic and fundamental forms of gov't - why shouldn't we be allowed to have this?

6) Community Development (things like Libraries, Museums, etc). Cypress lies on the 'split' between Precinct 3 and Precinct 4, so our community voice is watered down on the County Precinct level. Having our own City, means that Cypress looks out for Cypress, ensuring that we get more of our money returned to us in terms of services and amenities.

Edited April 24, 2007 by mrfootball

[JustinUther]

Benefits of Incorporation:

b ) Education and Investment (i.e. UH's failed NW Harris County campus bid - stronger voice for area interests, with the ability to create incentives to attract investment and other worthwhile things that benefit the community).

Hey! We voted in favor of aligning with NHMCCD http://www.nhmccd.edu/ not long ago. Take a look at Cy-Fair College. UH and TAMU are both about the same drive from 290 and Telge (close to my definition of the center of Cypress). One has a greater distance and the other has the traffic. My wife actually decided that TAMU made more sense and made the drive to College Station several times a week rather than sitting in Houston traffic. I think it would be great to have a major university here but this is a step in the right direction.

Oh and thanks for reminding me. We also approved a bond to build the Berry Center on that same ballot which is a good example of the sensibilities of the area residents. Residents are not wholly opposed to raising taxes but there must be some tangible benefit. Taxes may not be such an obstacle after all.

[TheNiche]

Benefits of Incorporation:

1) Community Identity - there are too many benefits here to list.

2) Provide a Voice/Advocate for the Community's interests

a) Transportation issues (Metro, planning, etc)

b ) Education and Investment (i.e. UH's failed NW Harris County campus bid - stronger voice for area interests, with the ability to create incentives to attract investment and other worthwhile things that benefit the community).

c) Quality of Life (i.e. Greenspaces, Parks, Trees, Crime, Pollution, etc), having a stronger voice when it comes to receiving funding/appropriations from a State/Federal level. Having people who are more 'invested' in the area's long term outlook, creating value for the residents.

3) Land Use Issues (i.e. stricter zoning and development controls, enforced landscape regulations - Harris County has them, but they do not enforce...add to that the glut of empty shopping centers, etc.) It's no secret that developers will do the least amount of work necessary to satisfy the lax requirements made of them by Harris County. After awhile it tends to show. Rather than being the 'low-fruit' on the tree, attracting half-ass developers looking to make a quick buck and get out, we can enforce standards and regulations that will ensure the area's long-term value, instituting smarter land use controls. (this is nothing new, this is what most cities & towns do).

4) Signage Issues (i.e. flashing LED signs, billboards, varying heights and setbacks, bandit signs, etc)

5) Accountability. Most people in unincorporated Harris County have no idea how to get anything done at the County level...what's worse, County services aren't designed to be very user-friendly so if you've got a complaint about something, it's rare you'll get much follow through. Harris County is huge, and we've got a Precinct System that is ill-equipped to handle the needs of the communities they serve. Add to that, the disjointed and meandering boundaries of the precincts make no geographic sense. I suppose an alternative to incorporation would be Precincts that represent each sub-region of town (ie. West Houston, Cy-Fair, Spring, Kingwood, etc?) that have ordinance powers...As it is now, they don't. Do they each have to be so big and cumbersome? Having a small local gov't where local citizens are elected and look out for their community is one of the most basic and fundamental forms of gov't - why shouldn't we be allowed to have this?

6) Community Development (things like Libraries, Museums, etc). Cypress lies on the 'split' between Precinct 3 and Precinct 4, so our community voice is watered down on the County Precinct level. Having our own City, means that Cypress looks out for Cypress, ensuring that we get more of our money returned to us in terms of services and amenities.

You're going to need to refine this a bit further. There are a lot of realities and soft spots that need to be addressed. For instance:

*What are the benefits of "community identity?" Can they be accomplished through other means?

*Cities in Texas rarely have a significant hand in educational matters.

*Some of the items on your personal agenda might be contentious if made political. Given the two-party system, it is highly likely that one or more of your goals might not be fulfilled.

*Pollution? You guys have clean air.

*Politicians are rarely ever concerned about a long-term out look. More likely, they're more focused on two years or less at any given time.

*A lot of these issues, especially bandit signs, are already illegal, as has already been pointed out. If you bother the County enough, they will enforce it, and there is no guarantee that a city will be any more responsive.

*My limited understanding is that legislation has been passed that grants counties more power. It might be easier and less expensive for your populace to lobby the State for more County-based powers than it would be for them to incorporate. You should definitely lobby the State on the LPAs, one way or the other.

*The division of precincts hearkens back to the title of this thread: "What is your geographic definition of Cypress?"

*If you were to incorporate, might the City be reluctant to make public investments near the city limits and ignore certain neighborhoods? Might some people feel left out or be effectively under-represented because the elected officials were trying to serve the greatest numbers of their constituency by placing public infrastructure and amenities in the geographic center of a uniform and possibly arbitrary area with various pockets of unincorporated areas interspersed with areas that were incorporated?

------------------------------

I'm not trying to be negative with all this, but you sound like a politician. If the idea is as good as you believe, then you should take a level-headed approach and it will sell itself. If you go too far out there, then the eventual newspaper article about your movement will spur contentious debate in and out of your community...and why shouldn't it if the main proponent of the idea submitted debatable rationale?

Define your idea. Study it. Seek input from existing organizations. Seek input from the City of Houston--don't worry, they won't blow your cover. Prepare a presentation and give it to a large crowd of prospective constituents. Lose the rhetoric.

Oh and thanks for reminding me. We also approved a bond to build the Berry Center on that same ballot which is a good example of the sensibilities of the area residents. Residents are not wholly opposed to raising taxes but there must be some tangible benefit. Taxes may not be such an obstacle after all.

Taxes aren't always easy to raise, even when there is a tangible result...but I am not at all surprised at the willingness of most Cy-Fair constituents to pay for the Berry Center.

The area of contention is entirely about MUDs. Nobody will have any problem paying for their own utilities infrastructure, but try justifying that they need to pay a disproportionate share for their neighbor's! Yikes.

EDIT: By the way, don't forget that even though you wouldn't be using County services anymore and are building your municipal services from the ground up, you'd still be paying Harris County as a taxing entity. Another hurdle, there.

Edited April 25, 2007 by TheNiche

[mrfootball]

If I'm not mistaken, you don't necessarily have to use your own services, you can still opt for County Sheriff, EMS, etc.

Many of the MUDs in Cypress are relatively new 15 years or less. While it could be an issue, I think those from the older neighborhoods closer to FM 1960 should be easily convinced by the value proposition. We'll have to lay out the vision, figure out exactly who wants in, decide if its worthwhile then draw the proposed boundaries and take it to the next steps.

As for pollution, I'm referring mainly to visual pollution (ie. bandit signs, signage) and sand pit mining.

Edited April 25, 2007 by mrfootball

[JustinUther]

Speaking about the MUD/Water District taxes, I have taken a look at some of the subdivisions in and around the area that we are calling Cypress. You may be surprised by what I have found. I expected to see the newer areas having higher rates than the older areas but it doesn't appear that it is the deciding factor. Lakewood is actually lower than Enchanted Valley. We may find that these older neighborhoods will actually welcome the idea of sharing the costs with the newer subdivisions. (I know I would).

Riata Ranch - .79(MUD)

Fairfield .72(MUD) + .29(WCID) <- ouch!

Enchanted Valley .75(WCID)

Bonaire .45(MUD)

Lakewood .41(MUD)

Glencairn .345(PUD)

Edited May 9, 2007 by JustinUther

[JustinUther]

Define your idea. Study it. Seek input from existing organizations. Seek input from the City of Houston--don't worry, they won't blow your cover. Prepare a presentation and give it to a large crowd of prospective constituents. Lose the rhetoric.

Wow. That is the first time I've seen anyone say that and it is such an obvious thing to do. If you want to attempt something that you haven't done before, ask someone who is already doing it. Some people on these boards are just afraid of annexation by Houston. The COH has many other things going on right now I would be quite surprised if it was inclined to expand so far north-west now, especially on the scale of the mussings tossed around here. We can approach this by telling ourselves that they would have no reason not to assist but >playing devils advocate here now> it begs the question, "Why would the COH help to establish the City of Cypress?"

[Trae]

I don't think Houston wants a Metroplex situation down here. They have all of those large suburbs surrounding Dallas (Fort Worth is fine). If Houston let Cypress annex itself, that would be about 300,000 (I think). Katy would be about 200,000. The Woodlands would be over 100,000.

[TheNiche]

We can approach this by telling ourselves that they would have no reason not to assist but >playing devils advocate here now> it begs the question, "Why would the COH help to establish the City of Cypress?"

The CoH probably wouldn't help to establish the City of Cypress, per se, but it may not put up a lot of opposition either, except possibly to try and extort some token amount of money from them like with The Woodlands deal. Why would the city council ever wish to expand the city limits into a disproportionately conservative suburban area? It'd throw the political balance all out of whack.

[musicman]

The CoH probably wouldn't help to establish the City of Cypress, per se, but it may not put up a lot of opposition either, except possibly to try and extort some token amount of money from them like with The Woodlands deal. Why would the city council ever wish to expand the city limits into a disproportionately conservative suburban area? It'd throw the political balance all out of whack.

the COH isn't being as proactive with annexation because they don't have the money to provide city services (police/fire coverage, libraries, etc) that's why clear lake has only relatively recently gotten fire stations.