Northgate Forest Wants To Secede From Spring ISD?

[mrfootball]

It's quite simple.

"Birds of a feather..."

Those feathers can be:

Educational Background

Professional status

Sexual orientation

Religion

Language

Political

Race

Etc.

[PureAuteur]

Happy Holidays everyone. Let me just say that I think this is an awesome mental exercise and a great attempt to provide a workable solution to a very tragic situation.

But this data shows exactly what I suspected. 25% white? Almost 60% receiving free lunches (economically disadvantaged)?

Would new middle-class families with kids move into those neighborhoods? Would parents in those neighborhoods take their kids out of private school and put them in public school? Would the new public schools be likely to earn high TEA ratings that real estate agents could tout? I don't think any of these would happen. I think the only time we would see re-gentrification is when space is in high demand, like inside the loop. My guess is that the sociologist's "tipping point" is at least 2/3 white for the Houston suburbs.

This is a good post. I wrote something similar in another thread when I talked about how the changing face of the 1960 area is due to natural economic patterns. The reason is simply that Houston is growing, and people are being pushed outward. These outer areas that were once detached from Houston and thus more valuable are now in the new "cheap zone". There is a distinct class barrier at the 1960 point, however, which keeps all the lower income movement south of 1960. The original middle class families are still around, but the reason you see a new element is because the land south of 1960 is getting filled up with low income housing and you have more apartment complexes that house mainly blacks and hispanics. The effect this will have on the school districts will affect the home values, like MrFootball stated. They will not decline too much, but they will pretty much stagnate. This also has to do with overdevelopment of the Houston area in general. The more homes on the market, the less your home is going to be worth. So if all these Rick Perry voters in Greenwood Forest/Northgate are complaining about their homes declining in value or stagnating, they only have themselves to thank. (Perry was responsible for easing restrictions on residential development all over Texas). I predict 1960 area homes will be stagnant for the next 20 years, and you will see more diversity in the middle class neighborhoods around 1960. (Driving through Greenwood, I have already seen more African-American kids walking around). If Houston didn't have so much open land all over, there would be a high demand for space on 1960, but this is not the case (yet).

There is another force at work that is not economical, and that is the establishedness of the 1960 area/Spring area. Most people who live around here are deeply rooted and have a sense of identity with the area. This is mainly because the area has a lot of history behind it, and because of the trees, which make it a good place to live. To give an example of how it has an establishedness to it, they have a St. Patrick's Day Parade along 1960 every year between Champions Dr. and Kuykendahl. Then, you also have the "Champions" name that is all over the community in the neighborhood names and business names, which has a good connotation to it.

[SpringTX]

I predict 1960 area homes will be stagnant for the next 20 years, and you will see more diversity in the middle class neighborhoods around 1960. (Driving through Greenwood, I have already seen more African-American kids walking around). If Houston didn't have so much open land all over, there would be a high demand for space on 1960, but this is not the case (yet).

Your real estate predictions for the 1960 area make sense to me. I would just mention that the Champions-related stuff (zoned to Klein High School) are doing a lot better than the neighborhoods zoned to Klein Forest and Westfield. But the latter are, as you say, are starting to resemble middle-class black neighborhoods. Middle-class black residents can live in an area with predominanly black and minority residents where they are accepted and feel comfortable, but they can also live in large, well-built homes with swimming pools on tree-lined residential streets patrolled by constables. The problem you point out is that the real estate values in those areas are going to be flat for many, many years. And I would also point out that the quality of the education in the schools themselves has been on a downhill slide for a long time, or at least many would argue that. If I were a middle-class black family, I would seriously consider looking farther north. Even though there are a lot more white faces there, the better education and stronger real estate investments are going to enable greater choices for your family down the line. If you're looking to live in a place for the next 10 years, you want to aim for something that will be good 10 years from now.

[mrfootball]

The Champions area is one of the most affluent clusters in Houston, that has not changed. Nor have the areas in Champions that are zoned to 'good' schools where the homeowners aren't swamped by low-income housing in their respective school zones. Those neighborhoods in the Klein HS zone and Cy-Creek zone are as they have always been. There are million dollar homes being built in Champion Forest, Champions, Champion Falls Estates, Lakes of Sterling Gate, Falls of Champion Forest and elsewhere. The key element is the schoolzones and their respective housing mix. I still think KISD ought to go ahead and make all of their Northside of FM 1960 neighborhoods go to Klein HS.

[PureAuteur]

I think the neighborhoods that started Westfield should hold onto it. The new high school should help Westfield, but they could redraw the boundaries even further to where Westfield is back to 50% white, and then it'll be fine. I went to Jersey Village HS in the mid 90s and it was 50% white, with some middle class blacks and asians, and low income blacks and hispanics. Jersey Village HS has been this way ever since. I think the fact that the school is in a strong white community (enclave city) with lots of parental involvement is what has kept it from going downhill. Besides the City of JV, you have a lot of conservative whites in the areas around Windfern and Fairbanks N. Houston who own large parcels of land. There are lots of good neighborhoods too. They have sections off Tidwell and Hollister zoned to JV which are mostly low income apartments, but for some reason the demographics have been at a consistent mix the last 10 years, while those at Westfield have changed, I suppose, because the apartments began to outnumber the homes.

[SpringTX]

I think the neighborhoods that started Westfield should hold onto it. The new high school should help Westfield, but they could redraw the boundaries even further to where Westfield is back to 50% white, and then it'll be fine. I went to Jersey Village HS in the mid 90s and it was 50% white, with some middle class blacks and asians, and low income blacks and hispanics. Jersey Village HS has been this way ever since. I think the fact that the school is in a strong white community (enclave city) with lots of parental involvement is what has kept it from going downhill. Besides the City of JV, you have a lot of conservative whites in the areas around Windfern and Fairbanks N. Houston who own large parcels of land. There are lots of good neighborhoods too. They have sections off Tidwell and Hollister zoned to JV which are mostly low income apartments, but for some reason the demographics have been at a consistent mix the last 10 years, while those at Westfield have changed, I suppose, because the apartments began to outnumber the homes.

If you're saying the tipping point is 50% white, I can buy that. (My estimate was 66%.) But I think Westfield is so far from 50% that they'd have to bulldoze a dozen apartment complexes just to get anywhere near that.

I'd be interested in learning more about Jersey Village has worked. I didn't realize any suburb that was that integrated could maintain such diversity for such a long period of time.

[mrfootball]

If you're saying the tipping point is 50% white, I can buy that. (My estimate was 66%.) But I think Westfield is so far from 50% that they'd have to bulldoze a dozen apartment complexes just to get anywhere near that.

I'd be interested in learning more about Jersey Village has worked. I didn't realize any suburb that was that integrated could maintain such diversity for such a long period of time.

Westfield was over 80% white when I was a student there in 1990.

Jersey Village is incorporated, I believe. It being a relatively 'close-in' suburb zoned to Cy-Fair schools also adds to its appeal. There are a number of nice upper middle class neighborhoods that have been developed there within the past 10 years or so.

[SpringTX]

A lot has changed in such a short period of time. Westfield was 11% white last year, and I bet it's even less this year. Most of the drop happened within a decade. In some parts of the country, schools haven't significantly changed their racial composition in a century, let alone a decade.

[ChampionsAdam]

(Driving through Greenwood, I have already seen more African-American kids walking around).

Yes, on their way to school. However, Greenwood Forest is predominantly caucasian. Many of the homes are still owned by the original homeowners, Greenwood Forest is also home to many second and third generation families. Most of the homes are very well maintained and manicured and in my opinion even more so than say Memorial Northwest and the older section of Champion Forest. The homes in my section of Greenwood Forest are typically in the $200K-$400K range, with one recent listing at almost $900K on my street. The homes on Havenwoods, Theall and Foresthaven rival some of the nicest in Champions. This really should not be an issue of race, the schools are overcrowded, this is the issue.

[mrfootball]

I will concur that a number of the same original owners in Greenwood, still live in Greenwood. Our beloved neighbors who lived behind us when we lived there in the 70's and early 80's are still there. I know some people that grew up there who went back and bought homes there after college.

It's still a great looking neighborhood, centrally located in the heart of the 1960 area with some great retail and restaurants nearby. It's really a prime location in that area.

Ponderosa is the same way, and it is still by a significant majority, mostly white.

It's just a shame that due to the fact these neighborhoods are zoned to the schools they're zoned to, their values are hamstrung. A home selling in Greenwood Forest for $140,000 would be selling for $180-$200k in a more desireable schoolzone.

You'd think the taxing authorities (ie. KISD) would recognize the potential for increased revenues and rezone these neighborhoods. They're terribly overcrowded at KF anyhow.

[SpringTX]

Greenwood Forest is predominantly caucasian...This really should not be an issue of race, the schools are overcrowded, this is the issue.

First of all, while it may be true that Greenwood Forest and Ponderosa Forest are predominantly caucasian now, it may not be like that in 10 years. If the percentage of caucasian has been steadily dropping in recent years (and I don't know that it has for sure), that would indicate that it would most likely continue to drop, barring other factors.

Second of all, a neighborhood can be 80% caucasian...but can at the same time also be 50% black in its school-age children, or be 55% black in its school age children who attend public schools. If all the white residents are retirees, and all the black residents are families with young children, that can easily happen.

I was surprised to learn that there were that many childless households who wanted to live 20 miles from downtown in 3000 sq ft/4 BR homes. GF and PF aren't just original residents - they're attracting a whole new crowd of owners who don't have kids and who don't plan to have kids any time soon. When I think of the traditional suburbs, I think of young "breeder" families. And it's this niche market of suburban childless households that is maintaining some semblance of property value in GF and PF. If it weren't for this demographic, prices in those areas would probably be in a freefall.

It's just a shame that due to the fact these neighborhoods are zoned to the schools they're zoned to, their values are hamstrung. A home selling in Greenwood Forest for $140,000 would be selling for $180-$200k in a more desireable schoolzone.

That's exactly true. I was figuring that homes in PF and GF were worth 20% less because of the schools, but it may be higher.

[pineda]

You'd think the taxing authorities (ie. KISD) would recognize the potential for increased revenues and rezone these neighborhoods. They're terribly overcrowded at KF anyhow.

Mr. Football-

I don't know if this information might be useful to you or not, but there is a community forum set up discussing potential attendance zones and there will be opportunities for you to speak up at these events. This might be a way to get your message heard. I've heard before that Klein Forest is overcrowded, but I've also heard the administration's response that all the numbers at the schools are about the same, and that those that are not currently overcrowded will be very shortly. Therefore, moving large segments of the school population around will not help fix long-term issues. Building new schools as fast as they possibly can will address these issues. However, I do hope that the KISD school board and superintendent are relying upon more than just the PASA report information to help guide their decision-making processes, as I believe the report is flawed and loaded with errors and misconceptions and miscalculations.

Klein ISD Community Forum information

[tcklme]

I find this whole subject pretty interesting reading, yet also see it as a bit overwhelming for a single person to overcome and/or deal with. We lived in Ponderosa Forest from fall 1997 to summer 2003. We got a great deal on our home, we loved our home, and did enjoy the area amenities that 1960/45 offered close to home.

All three of our kids attended private religious school through 8th grade. When our oldest began high school, my husband did not want him attending Westfield. So he took him to Klein Oak, where his grandmother lived. That lasted just one semester, then my husband enrolled in him in Westfield. Those years went by so-so, but we did have a few serious problems with other students. When it came time for our next child to attend high school, I refused to send my daughter to Westfield -- I just knew she would be preyed upon by out of control students -- both boys and girls; and I wanted to lesson the trash my child would be exposed to in high school.

We moved out of PF only because of the schools.

My oldest daughter is now a junior at Klein Collins HS. Our school is not without fault, but we are very happy with the school, we love the neighborhood, and are actually so glad to not be on 1960 with the gawd-awful traffic! We were so happy to be out when it came time for high school, and I do have empathy for parents that either can't afford to move for whatever reason, or they feel it's their duty to stay and make it better for everyone.

But meanwhile, years are passing by and these kids are being exposed to the bad schools with all the out-of-control students, teachers that have no control and no authority, and all of the negative social behavior that is taking place in such large schools.

[Chris]

Klein and Spring School Districts are having public Hearings on this matter in April. I'm guessing the decision will be made then wheather to keep Northgate Forest in Spring ISD or move them to Klein ISD which would make residents much more happier.

[hbcu]

how we shall forget that Westfield used to be lilly white.....as long there's legitimate street access minorities will follow...it's no coincidence Ella Blvd or TC Jester (can't remember now). is the address of Klein Collins...the same Ella/TC Jester that starts at 610

Veterans Memorial is the street that has changed the entire area as it starts at I-45 and goes to 1960....but I look at some of the small houses that were built along the street and I can see how the area has changed as the houses weren't built to maintain any value...I saw small duplexes stashed behind the Shipley's on Veterans and those properties are designed to be rental only....

These same folks who want to secede need to look in the mirror and see that they are the reason areas change...you build crap, leave it behind without giving it a second thought and it opens the doors for others to get in there...then when they come into the area they want to cry foul and run again...

Caucasians, whites, etc. are the reason the area has changed so much now...they've moved from 610 and I-45 all the way to Conroe now and as soon as an area changes they run and get upset when it happens...

The northern area of HISD (Sam Houston, Fonville) used to be white and then they ran to the Aldine area which changed overnight...then Westfield is the place to be but now that area has been altered with minorites....now they want to run to Klein, Conroe ISD, etc. thinking none will follow....

why run? the cycle will repeat once again...stay in one area and spend time maintaining it so we're not building homes in Huntsville just to get away and leaving behind crap....

my father left the country in the 60s to get to the city to have an opportunity to attend college and get a job...now, people are running back to areas where they fought to leave.....I appreciate it though as your now driving up our farm land values....

give me a hollar if you want to purchase some lots in time for the next great northern expansion...I have 60 acres available on a corner lot that fronts a major artery....

[CreekDweller]

Virtually none of the school-age kids in Northgate actually go to Spring ISD schools. But that's not why the Northgate people are so upset. They want to switch districts so they can raise their property values and move out of Northgate Forest. They know their MUD taxes are going to skyrocket within the next couple of years once the place gets built-out and NFDC stops subsidizing them. They know their Country Club certainly isn't a selling point anymore - the course is poorly maintained, the clubhouse is old & outdated, and membership turnover is high. They know the traffic at 1960/Kuykendahl is inhuman and they'll be living down the street from a major underpass very shortly. So they want to trade "Wastefield" for Klein because there's really not much else going for them right now. Every year a new section of houses opens there that nobody ever moves into. Half the lots in the original section that opened in the early '80s are still for sale.

[mrfootball]

It's a beautiful neighborhood.

[Trae]

Albright Middle School in Alief was just like Bammel Middle School. It use to be nicknamed "Alwhite". If you look at the class photos since it opened to know, it gets darker and darker each year.

[Chris]

Virtually none of the school-age kids in Northgate actually go to Spring ISD schools. But that's not why the Northgate people are so upset. They want to switch districts so they can raise their property values and move out of Northgate Forest. They know their MUD taxes are going to skyrocket within the next couple of years once the place gets built-out and NFDC stops subsidizing them. They know their Country Club certainly isn't a selling point anymore - the course is poorly maintained, the clubhouse is old & outdated, and membership turnover is high. They know the traffic at 1960/Kuykendahl is inhuman and they'll be living down the street from a major underpass very shortly. So they want to trade "Wastefield" for Klein because there's really not much else going for them right now. Every year a new section of houses opens there that nobody ever moves into. Half the lots in the original section that opened in the early '80s are still for sale.

Where do the school aged children in Northgate Forest go to school at? Private Schools?

[CreekDweller]

Where do the school aged children in Northgate Forest go to school at? Private Schools?

My family lives in Olde Oaks on a street directly adjacent to Northgate. We've known a lot of the Northgate people pretty well, my family were members at the country club, etc. There aren't that many kids in there to begin with (I swam for Northgate's swim team as a child and virtually all the kids were from Olde Oaks) and those that are there go to area private schools (Northland Christian, John Cooper, St. Pius, etc) and there's a few that homeschool. There's also a bunch who pay for their kids to go to Klein or Cy-Fair schools. I graduated from my private high school last year and can name maybe one or two Northgate kids who went to Spring ISD schools (and they're in college now).

[psilverot]

I agree. Also, the new sections that are opening in Northgate ARE selling. Have you been lately. It's a nice community. I don't think anyone is moving anywhere. It's seems it is getting nicer each day... A lot of communities within the area don't even compare to Northgate.

My family lives in Olde Oaks on a street directly adjacent to Northgate. We've known a lot of the Northgate people pretty well, my family were members at the country club, etc. There aren't that many kids in there to begin with (I swam for Northgate's swim team as a child and virtually all the kids were from Olde Oaks) and those that are there go to area private schools (Northland Christian, John Cooper, St. Pius, etc) and there's a few that homeschool. There's also a bunch who pay for their kids to go to Klein or Cy-Fair schools. I graduated from my private high school last year and can name maybe one or two Northgate kids who went to Spring ISD schools (and they're in college now).

[Trae]

Is Northgate that one neighborhood close to the Woodlands, squeezed in between I-45 and the Hardy Tollroad? If so, I have been there before.

[Chris]

Is Northgate that one neighborhood close to the Woodlands, squeezed in between I-45 and the Hardy Tollroad? If so, I have been there before.

Northgate Forest is located on FM 1960 just west of Kuykendahl Road.

[Trae]

Then what is that one I am talking about. It begins with a "Northgate", too.

[mrfootball]

On the plus side for Spring ISD now, it's a lot easier to be in that Top 10% for guaranteed admissions to the college of your choice.

BTW, Olde Oaks is a nice neighborhood as well.

[Mom22Blessings]

<< Start TX 77381

End Houston, TX 77068

Travel 17.7 mi (about 28 mins) >>

Northgate is nowhere near The Woodlands. It's not between the Hardy and 45. It's south of 2920 between Cypresswood and 1960.

Looking at the google map I'm surprised it's not Klein. It's real close to KHS.

[CreekDweller]

Then what is that one I am talking about. It begins with a "Northgate", too.

You are talking about Northgate Crossing. That is off I-45. Northgate Forest is a golf course community off of FM 1960 west of Kuykendahl.

[mrfootball]

I noticed development on the Cypresswood side of the Creek that backs up directly to the Northgate Forest Country Club and Golf Course. I wonder if they plan to connect the communities with a bridge over the creek? That would shorten the trip to KHS considerably if they were to do that.

[CreekDweller]

I noticed development on the Cypresswood side of the Creek that backs up directly to the Northgate Forest Country Club and Golf Course. I wonder if they plan to connect the communities with a bridge over the creek? That would shorten the trip to KHS considerably if they were to do that.

They're extending TC Jester over Cypress Creek to Cypresswood Dr. It was supposed to happen several years ago but the funding was never there & now it's being done to help decrease the traffic at the 1960/Kuykendahl light.

[Chris]

If Northgate Forest secedes into Klein ISD I thought they would be zoned to Klein Forest HS, Wunderlich, and GW Forest Elementary. If they were zoned to Klein HS they would have to travel all the way down FM 1960 to Stubner Airline, then down that road 2-4 miles. Maybe Klein and Klein Forest are about the same distance from Northgate Forest.