Dallas Construction

[TexasStar]

I was not trying to get in a war with you. You initially we're making the point that Dallas was more urban because of MARTA, I on the other hand was attempting to point out that MARTA does not necessarily mean it's more urban than Houston... Let's just drop it.

Yeah, lets.

Especially if we're going to bring Atlanta into it.

[TexasStar]

Jason, I agree that the article included under construction and planned buildings in it's estimate. 1.75 million sf is under construction, with 1.8 million sf planned. As for buildings in the CBD, they are all on the Woodall Rogers feeder road, with 7-11 going to the Arts District. This is about as far from the center of the CBD as one can get and still call it the CBD. In fact, 7-11's building is actually NORTH of American Airlines Center (by latitude), and EAST of Uptown.

The article also spoke of the many law firms that are moving to new space in Uptown, not Downtown. That is the question I am asking...is there any knowledgeable source that contradicts what is in the article?

As for missing the "spillover effect" of Victory and, I suppose, Uptown, it appears that the Dallas Morning News is missing it as well. Why is it that it is so clear to you and troyboy, yet the real estate writers at the DMN cannot see it?

And, can you show me a study or an article that suggests that an airport 25 miles Northwest of the CBD, and a future distribution center 25 miles Southeast of the CBD will cause the CBD to rebound? The DFW area is growing by leaps and bounds currently, but the CBD is shrinking.

I am not trying to dis you or downtown, but your logic flies in the face of the current facts, as well as historical trends. It just looks like the developers and tenants are leaving downtown to the dogs.

I suppose we can all read the same article and draw different conclusions. I can see how someone can look at the published vacancy rates and question the effects of new office construction. But, my layman's viewpoint comes from working every single day in Downtown Dallas and seeing the increasing activity and energy over the past five years. The improvement since 2001 is simply stunning. It's seems clear to me that all the activity across Woodall Rogers will enhance Downtown, not hurt it. Moreover, I see it as an extension of Downtown, not something separate and apart.

[troyboy]

Sorry Gary if you thought I was trying to pick a fight. I sincerely wasn't. I think it's silly when people get inflammed on something like an architectural forum. I enjoyed the conversation.

[Gary]

Sorry Gary if you thought I was trying to pick a fight. I sincerely wasn't. I think it's silly when people get inflammed on something like an architectural forum. I enjoyed the conversation.

No problem Troy.

[troyboy]

As for missing the "spillover effect" of Victory and, I suppose, Uptown, it appears that the Dallas Morning News is missing it as well. Why is it that it is so clear to you and troyboy, yet the real estate writers at the DMN cannot see it?

I work in DTD, you don't and if you think people are walking around here with dread about the market, you would be wrong. I'm not the only one optimistic about downtown Dallas, many are. I'm not from here but from what I understand, the optimisim is the greatest it's been in well over a decade. Simply put, if this kind of building was going on in Houston, you would love it. I've been to downtown Houston and if downtown Dallas is dead, Houston is right on it's heels. It seems Dallas is doing a lot more to make downtown more appealing, not just for the citizens, but for businesses as well. It seems to be working. Will Dallas's office vacancy rate soon dip below 15% anytime soon?? Time will tell. Blockbuster, Hunt, 7-11, Baylor and several large law firms all could have easily left downtown, but they're still here. I think you're biggest problem isn't that we're nuts for being optimistic about downtown Dallas, it's that this office building frenzy is happening here and not there.

[Gary]

Yeah, lets.

Especially if we're going to bring Atlanta into it.

My apologies, I meant to say DART. However you don't have to be a smart as# about it.

I work in DTD, you don't and if you think people are walking around here with dread about the market, you would be wrong. I'm not the only one optimistic about downtown Dallas, many are. I'm not from here but from what I understand, the optimisim is the greatest it's been in well over a decade. Simply put, if this kind of building was going on in Houston, you would love it. I've been to downtown Houston and if downtown Dallas is dead, Houston is right on it's heels. It seems Dallas is doing a lot more to make downtown more appealing, not just for the citizens, but for businesses as well. It seems to be working. Will Dallas's office vacancy rate soon dip below 15% anytime soon?? Time will tell. Blockbuster, Hunt, 7-11, Baylor and several large law firms all could have easily left downtown, but they're still here. I think you're biggest problem isn't that we're nuts for being optimistic about downtown Dallas, it's that this office building frenzy is happening here and not there.

Troy, while I appreciate your earlier apology, I've got to say that the above show's you haven't a clue about DT Houston. To compare what has been done in the perspectice cities CBD's is ludicrous. Houston far surpasses Dallas in what it's acomplished DT. It's also in the process of changing the area once again with the park, the Pavillions, and the new condo tower, let alone all of the infill that's been happening.

Victory is great and let's agree on that, but don't try to compare the two CBD's.

[TexasStar]

My apologies, I meant to say DART. However you don't have to be a smart as# about it. angry.gif

It was just a joke. You don't have to be a d#ck about it.

[feufoma]

^^^^^^

Thank you TS. That's exactly what I was saying. This is TEXAS and the whole idea of lightrail and mass transit is pretty new and scary to these car lovin' folks. And I never said it appealed to every Dallasite. I said I was able to go without my car...I don't know about everyone else. It's sad to say, but even cities with very good rail systems (which I feel DART is) still have daily traffic jams...Portland, New York, Seattle, Chicago...not just Dallas. But for the fourth largerst city in the U.S., Houston's mass transit should be way ahead of where it is. But Dallas has passed it, and once Austin's rail comes on line, it will probably surpass Houston also. And as far as light rail not being an indicator of urbanization, I'm trying to think of one U.S. city considered to be a model of urbanization that doesn't have some type of mass transit like rail or subway. I find it telling that cities that are trying to urbanize all see mass transit as a vital component.

It's funny though, but I remember reading some stats just this summer that ranked Houston's usage of public transportation to be higher per capita than either Dallas or Austin. I don't have the source, but I distinctly remember seeing this. And please, I lived in Dallas and go there often. You need a car there too!

[troyboy]

My apologies, I meant to say DART. However you don't have to be a smart as# about it.

Troy, while I appreciate your earlier apology, I've got to say that the above show's you haven't a clue about DT Houston. To compare what has been done in the perspectice cities CBD's is ludicrous. Houston far surpasses Dallas in what it's acomplished DT. It's also in the process of changing the area once again with the park, the Pavillions, and the new condo tower, let alone all of the infill that's been happening.

Victory is great and let's agree on that, but don't try to compare the two CBD's.

And this would be our opinions again. Neither of us is right or wrong. I visit Houston often and always stay downtown, so will use my right to disagree. But notice I didn't say I disliked downtown Houston, because logistically I like it more than DT Dallas and I like lots of what has been done.

[RedScare]

OK, I have seen 3 posts from 3 different posters from Dallas. I asked any or all of them to explain why the hometown paper was concerned about companies leaving DT, with few or no companies replacing them. I asked for any article or study that contradicted that hometown newspaper's point of view.

One poster claimed I was being negative, and REAL Texans are always positive. One brought up Houston, though no one else was making this a comparison thread, and claimed I was jealous. Only one of the 3 posters tried to politely explain his views, though even he could not point to an article that contradicted the Morning News article.

Not one person could or would honestly debate the subject, for fear they may have to admit Dallas is not perfect. However, they will also not let any of the rest of us debate it honestly. They come on here and accuse us of a hidden agenda. This does not happen on the Houston threads. We constantly debate Houston's warts and shortcomings. Only on a Dallas thread are we forced to dance delicately around the Dallas readers' fragile egos, and not outright call them on their naked boosterism.

Since no one would cite me an article that supports their rosy views, I decided to look for myself. I could not find one, but I did find this Dallas Business Journal article about downtown Dallas.

Enjoy.

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stori...editorial2.html

[TexasStar]

...and not outright call them on their naked boosterism.

We embrace our naked boosterism.

[Gary]

OK, I have seen 3 posts from 3 different posters from Dallas. I asked any or all of them to explain why the hometown paper was concerned about companies leaving DT, with few or no companies replacing them. I asked for any article or study that contradicted that hometown newspaper's point of view.

One poster claimed I was being negative, and REAL Texans are always positive. One brought up Houston, though no one else was making this a comparison thread, and claimed I was jealous. Only one of the 3 posters tried to politely explain his views, though even he could not point to an article that contradicted the Morning News article.

Not one person could or would honestly debate the subject, for fear they may have to admit Dallas is not perfect. However, they will also not let any of the rest of us debate it honestly. They come on here and accuse us of a hidden agenda. This does not happen on the Houston threads. We constantly debate Houston's warts and shortcomings. Only on a Dallas thread are we forced to dance delicately around the Dallas readers' fragile egos, and not outright call them on their naked boosterism.

Since no one would cite me an article that supports their rosy views, I decided to look for myself. I could not find one, but I did find this Dallas Business Journal article about downtown Dallas.

Enjoy.

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stori...editorial2.html

Although part of the off the subject posts we're by me, I still say..... Great Post! The truth hurts.

Go ahead Dalparadise, I can take it.

[troyboy]

OK, I have seen 3 posts from 3 different posters from Dallas. I asked any or all of them to explain why the hometown paper was concerned about companies leaving DT, with few or no companies replacing them. I asked for any article or study that contradicted that hometown newspaper's point of view.

Was this article a newspaper concern or the author of the article's concern...I never got the idea he was speaking for the entire newspaper. The real estate columnist for the DMN quotes people making positive statements about downtown quite often. He makes good and bad statements himself...I never assumed he was speaking on behalf of the entire newspaper. The writer talked to several people who shared his (valid)concern to back up the point he was attempting to make. Another writer can just as easily talk to people that have a very different point of view. Belo Corp., owner's of the DMN, (a newspaper and company I can't stand..I have my reasons), has been a pretty good corporate citizen. There's some political stuff going with the company that would make me think they are quite positive about downtown Dallas. I rambling but I guess I don't feel that the article is the newspapers point of few...but the author's.

And I'm sorry if I don't care enough about your opinions to take the time to dig up articles.

[MidtownCoog]

Dallas appears to be as optomistic as a 28 y/o Okie who lives in "The Village" with a new credit card and leased BMW.

[Gary]

Was this article a newspaper concern or the author of the article's concern...I never got the idea he was speaking for the entire newspaper. The real estate columnist for the DMN quotes people making positive statements about downtown quite often. He makes good and bad statements himself...I never assumed he was speaking on behalf of the entire newspaper. The writer talked to several people who shared his (valid)concern to back up the point he was attempting to make. Another writer can just as easily talk to people that have a very different point of view. Belo Corp., owner's of the DMN, (a newspaper and company I can't stand..I have my reasons), has been a pretty good corporate citizen. There's some political stuff going with the company that would make me think they are quite positive about downtown Dallas. I rambling but I guess I don't feel that the article is the newspapers point of few...but the author's.

And I'm sorry if I don't care enough about your opinions to take the time to dig up articles.

The author Didn't need a lot of help to validate his story Troy, the numbers and trends speak for themselves. I find it somewhat humerous that Red states what you call opinions from a newspaper column, asks you or anyone else to debunk it, then get's comments that his opinion isn't worth the debate. That tells me that there is something to this: "Not one person could or would honestly debate the subject, for fear they may have to admit Dallas is not perfect. However, they will also not let any of the rest of us debate it honestly. They come on here and accuse us of a hidden agenda. This does not happen on the Houston threads. We constantly debate Houston's warts and shortcomings. Only on a Dallas thread are we forced to dance delicately around the Dallas readers' fragile egos, and not outright call them on their naked boosterism.

[Gary]

And this would be our opinions again. Neither of us is right or wrong. I visit Houston often and always stay downtown, so will use my right to disagree. But notice I didn't say I disliked downtown Houston, because logistically I like it more than DT Dallas and I like lots of what has been done.

How can you say that my statement regarding both cities CBD's is opinion? The fact is that DT Houston is a lot further along than that of Dallas'. Secondly, I never mentioned which DT you liked better, I merely rebuked your intital statement.

[tamtagon]

Go Spurs!

[TxDave]

Since no one would cite me an article that supports their rosy views, I decided to look for myself. I could not find one, but I did find this Dallas Business Journal article about downtown Dallas.

Enjoy.

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stori...editorial2.html

Good find, but that article is over 5 years old (March 2001). A lot has changed since then - all over the country.

It would be interesting, however, to investigate how the situation discussed in the article compares to the current situation in Dallas.

To tie back to the original post, the article does state: "Downtown could enjoy a turnaround, but it won't be driven by a surge in office occupancy"

[tamtagon]

But for the fourth largerst city in the U.S., Houston's mass transit should be way ahead of where it is.

It's a real easy call to say mass transit in Houston is lagging, but it's disingenuous to fault the city and/or residents. I think the reason for METRO rail's tardiness is because the region's very substantial industrial output is primarily based on Oil and Gas industries. Making gasoline is a cornerstone of the Houston area economy; money talks and politicians listen.

The DFW area is growing by leaps and bounds currently, but the CBD is shrinking.

Actually, the Dallas CBD is growing, and in a few years the tight highway ring circling the 'downtown' will no longer geographically define the business district. While residential conversion has become a popular reuse of older buildings in/near the historic center of the CBD, new office construction has resumed to the west, after the 20 hibernation.

To me, the residential reuse underway and/or planned for so many of Dallas' oldest highrises indicates a giant urban step forward. By the end of the decade, a small town's worth of people will be living in a very concentrated area with a "city" atmosphere. Houston is the only place within 1000 miles that will have a comparable setting, I think it's exciting that the "big city lifestyle" opportunity is becoming available. This increasing population density of downtown area neighborhoods will make the (expanded) Dallas CBD appealing to more employers.

Troy, while I appreciate your earlier apology, I've got to say that the above show's you haven't a clue about DT Houston. To compare what has been done in the perspectice cities CBD's is ludicrous. Houston far surpasses Dallas in what it's acomplished DT. It's also in the process of changing the area once again with the park, the Pavillions, and the new condo tower, let alone all of the infill that's been happening.

Victory is great and let's agree on that, but don't try to compare the two CBD's

Before comparing the two CBD's, the geographic size needs to be similar. I'm not sure about this, but I think the statistical area labeled as Houston's CBD is about twice the size as the Dallas CBD. If that's roughly accurate, much of Uptown Dallas should be combined with the traditional CBD designation for statistical review.

[NDtexan]

Since no one would cite me an article that supports their rosy views, I decided to look for myself. I could not find one, but I did find this Dallas Business Journal article about downtown Dallas.

Enjoy.

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stori...editorial2.html

No, not a good find...

Do you honestly believe that article reflects the activity and the potential of downtown Dallas today, 5 and a half years later?

The Arts District alone is the biggest thing downtown's seen in 20 years...while office vacancy is still high, and uptown as of now does pose a threat, it's hard to say one way or another where downtown is going. The spike in residential units in the CBD could have an enormous effect on all real estate in the loop, but for now all we can do is speculate.

But let's speculate where downtown might be 5 and a half years from now without bringing up articles from 5 and a half years ago.

[RedScare]

It's is a shame that I had to use a 2001 article to get this thread back on track, but, hey, it worked.

TxDave, I have tried to compare that article's numbers to today, but admittedly, it is tough. Most of the real estate brokers have different numbers for the size of the CBD. Using the 2001 article's statement of 22.7% vacancy and 6.8 million sf of vacant space, it appears that there was 30 million sf of OFFICE space in 2001. Today, I see various estimates of CBD OFFICE space of 26.1 million to 29 million sf of space. So, in terms of office space, it appears that the CBD HAS shrunk.

We know that several buildings have been taken off the market for conversion to residential, so it would make sense that the available space has shrunk. However, the vacancy rate has stayed the same, at 23.5%. This means that OCCUPIED office space has shrunk from 23.2 million sf to between 20 msf and 22 msf. From articles I have read, it appears that older buildings in the heart of downtown are standing empty, while the skyscrapers are doing OK. Of course, all of the new construction is either in the Arts District, Woodall Rogers, or in Uptown and Victory.

What this suggests to me is that the "official" CBD is, in fact, shrinking (in terms of office space). However, a NEW CBD is growing just to the north. The old original center of downtown is slowly being converted to a neighborhood, while the big spending corporate tenants move into new buildings in Uptown. I don't think this means the end of the original CBD. I think it means the beginning of a new use for the CBD. The possibilities are endless. Whereas Houston is trying to build residential, parks and arenas on it's parking lot strewn eastern downtown, Dallas is attempting to convert existing buildings to new uses. Neither could be called better, but they are very much different, and both bring the possibility of a vibrant reuse of formerly downtrodden areas.

In this sense, tamtagon and I are saying the same thing. My point however, was that the use of the original CBD as a business center seemed to be shrinking, while it's adaptive reuse was growing. It will be very interesting to see what happens when the retrofits currently underway are completed.

[tamtagon]

My point however, was that the use of the original CBD as a business center seemed to be shrinking, while it's adaptive reuse was growing. It will be very interesting to see what happens when the retrofits currently underway are completed.

I think what we're observing in the major Sunbelt business centers like Houston, Dallas and Atlanta is an emerging redefinition to the traditional American central business district. In response to mounting quality of life inconveniences triggered by suburban sprawl, a high density residential development trend in/around historic central city business districts is creating a new variation of citylife. Neighobrhood blocks of office towers functioning only as a work destination is obsolete in the vast suburban population centers; what will evolve is a homogenized mix of development serving both office and residential needs.

Office leasing agents for existing and pending central Dallas office space should be able find the tennents from first ring suburban areas. We're still going to see rapid exurb business park development, it just wont represent as overwhelming a majority of new construction.

[TexasStar]

It's is a shame that I had to use a 2001 article to get this thread back on track, but, hey, it worked.

TxDave, I have tried to compare that article's numbers to today, but admittedly, it is tough. Most of the real estate brokers have different numbers for the size of the CBD. Using the 2001 article's statement of 22.7% vacancy and 6.8 million sf of vacant space, it appears that there was 30 million sf of OFFICE space in 2001. Today, I see various estimates of CBD OFFICE space of 26.1 million to 29 million sf of space. So, in terms of office space, it appears that the CBD HAS shrunk.

We know that several buildings have been taken off the market for conversion to residential, so it would make sense that the available space has shrunk. However, the vacancy rate has stayed the same, at 23.5%. This means that OCCUPIED office space has shrunk from 23.2 million sf to between 20 msf and ss msf. From articles I have read, it appears that older buildings in the heart of downtown are standing empty, while the skyscrapers are doing OK. Of course, all of the new construction is either in the Arts District, Woodall Rogers, or in Uptown and Victory.

What this suggests to me is that the "official" CBD is, in fact, shrinking (in terms of office space). However, a NEW CBD is growing just to the north. The old original center of downtown is slowly being converted to a neighborhood, while the big spending corporate tenants move into new buildings in Uptown. I don't think this means the end of the original CBD. I think it means the beginning of a new use for the CBD. The possibilities are endless. Whereas Houston is trying to build residential, parks and arenas on it's parking lot strewn eastern downtown, Dallas is attempting to convert existing buildings to new uses. Neither could be called better, but they are very much different, and both bring the possibility of a vibrant reuse of formerly downtrodden areas.

In this sense, tamtagon and I are saying the same thing. My point however, was that the use of the original CBD as a business center seemed to be shrinking, while it's adaptive reuse was growing. It will be very interesting to see what happens when the retrofits currently underway are completed.

Quite possibly RedScare's best post ever in the DFW subforum. You provide an excellent analysis of what may happening. in DTD (and all without referring to tumbleweeds.) I would only add that Steve Brown, the DMN Real Estate columnist, has complained that the space in converted office buildings has not come yet come off published vacancy rates. So I think it's hard right now to get a feel for how all this will shake out. Another 5 years or so may tell the story. For both Dallas and Houston.

[Houston19514]

Before comparing the two CBD's, the geographic size needs to be similar. I'm not sure about this, but I think the statistical area labeled as Houston's CBD is about twice the size as the Dallas CBD. If that's roughly accurate, much of Uptown Dallas should be combined with the traditional CBD designation for statistical review.

By what logic does the geographic size of two CBDs need to be similar before they can be compare? That's just silliness. The CBD is what it is. There MAY be a reasonable argument for including uptown as part of Dallas' CBD, but just to make it the same geographic size as Houston's CBD is not a reason. And if I am not mistaken, most if not all of the commercial real estate reporting agencies still report Dallas CBD and Dallas Uptown as separate markets.

In any event, I wonder where you got the idea that the "statistical area labeled as Houston's CBD is about twice the size as the Dallas CBD." For both cities, I think the most common definition of CBD is the area inside the downtown freeway loop. Dallas' downtown freeway loop has a circumference of approximatel 5.25 miles. Houston's is about 5.8 miles. (I'm not familiar enough with downtown Dalls to know for sure, but I think the Houston downtown freeway loop probably includes a little more area that is not really CBD than does Dallas's; I'm speaking of the northeast area, up towards the I-10/US59 intersection. But in any event, they are actually fairly close in geograhic size.)

Your argument that you need to include Uptown Dallas as part of the CBD so that it matches the geographic size of Houston's CBD reminds me of some years back when the Dallas boosters argued to the commercial real estate reporting agencies that the empty buildings in downtown Dallas should not be included in the office vacancy rates, because, well they were empty and those numbers just made Dallas look bad.

[tamtagon]

By what logic does the geographic size of two CBDs need to be similar before they can be compare? That's just silliness.

Dang-it, I hate it when my post does not say what I intended. Even more, I hate it when you, Houston19514, point out the silliness, ...because it does make me sound like a blinded Dallas Booster.

There MAY be a reasonable argument for including uptown as part of Dallas' CBD

I think some of Uptown should be included in the geographic footprint of the Dallas CBD - that there is no valid statistical reason Woodall Rogers freeway should form a defining boundry creating two separate sub-markets. Even before this most recent addition of office space, southern Uptown (Lower McKinney) and the CBD have functioned as a united business district.

I think I got the idea that Houston CBD is geographically twice the size of Dallas CBD from an annual report called something like American City Mayors Report, or Governors Report, I dont remember the name, but I think it's published out of Denver...? Ring a bell with anyone? I know it's been linked though this forum, and others.... I'll see if I can dig it one of these days.

[troyboy]

I think some of Uptown should be included in the geographic footprint of the Dallas CBD - that there is no valid statistical reason Woodall Rogers freeway should form a defining boundry creating two separate sub-markets. Even before this most recent addition of office space, southern Uptown (Lower McKinney) and the CBD have functioned as a united business district.

It's so funny you mentioned that, I've always thought the same thing. Upon moving here, my first job was in the Crescent and I would always tell people I worked downtown. I was quickly notified that I was in Uptown and downtown began on the opposite side of Woodall Rogers. (Odd since we would walk "downtown" for lunch often)

I'm sure alot of city leaders are cursing the day that freeway was built.

[TexasStar]

I'm sure alot of city leaders are cursing the day that freeway was built.

Won't matter when it's covered by a Park.

[houstonfella]

No, not a good find...

Do you honestly believe that article reflects the activity and the potential of downtown Dallas today, 5 and a half years later?

The Arts District alone is the biggest thing downtown's seen in 20 years...while office vacancy is still high, and uptown as of now does pose a threat, it's hard to say one way or another where downtown is going. The spike in residential units in the CBD could have an enormous effect on all real estate in the loop, but for now all we can do is speculate.

But let's speculate where downtown might be 5 and a half years from now without bringing up articles from 5 and a half years ago.

This one is more up-to-date. Three cities also appear in both the downtown and suburban

[Gary]

Ouch, that hurt.

[HoutoDal]

This one is more up-to-date. Three cities also appear in both the downtown and suburban