Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[slfunk]

Some last minute controversy with Victory Plaza. AAC wants to install its own video screen which may conflict with the ones already up. If you click on the video you can watch a news blip about this and see what the plaza will look like.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...n.39832271.html

[UrbaNerd]

Hardy Yards!

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread...4123&page=9

[C2H]

Hardy Yards!

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread...4123&page=9

This is actually a rendering of the intermodal station, not the Hardy Rail Yards project itself.

[dfwcre8tive]

Victory Park: $460M in Projects, More Retail

By Connie Gore

DALLAS-Hillwood, celebrating its first office lease at Victory Park, has started dirt work for the $110-million House, a 150-condo project of Philippe Starck and YOO UK Ltd., and readying the market for holiday season openings for a 30,000-sf retail contingent.

The House will go vertical in 60 to 90 days during the same time that crews will be pushing up on Victory Tower, a $325-milion Mandarin Oriental hotel and residences. By June 2007, Victory Park's vertical work will be in various stages for $640 million of mixed-use space. The $125-million One Victory Park got its go-ahead when Hillwood's team nailed a lead tenant, Haynes and Boone LLP, for up to 175,000 sf on six floors of the 20-story, 456,000-sf structure. The first of two office buildings will break ground in the first quarter in a 75-acre district anchored by American Airlines Center and including a W Hotel and the Craft bar and restaurant.

The next construction wave will bring four of Victory's 30 buildings on line. "This will finish the second and third phases," Jonas Woods, president of Hillwood Capital, tells GlobeSt.com. "Soon, we'll be announcing our concept for the fourth phase."

The 28-story House will stand as the landmark icon for Victory's southernmost gateway. The Starck-Yoo project is being built by Manhattan Construction Co., a subsidiary of Tulsa-based Rooney Holdings Inc., with WDG Architecture Inc. of Dallas and Boston-based Elkus Manfredi Architects Inc. as part of the design team for the renowned Starcke, who's marking his first project in the Southwest with the undertaking. The House is set to open in 2008.

Woods says the 150 condos are nearly half sold out to what Starcke likes to call "the smart tribe," crisscrossing all generations on the buyers' profile. Condos range from 1,000 sf to 8,700 sf, with the average standing at 1,500 sf and the average sticker at $600,000. Al Coker & Associates of Dallas is marketing the project.

The holiday retail openings will be Quicksilver, Paciugo Gran Caffe Fall, Haven, J. Lindeberg, Bella Flora, Gachet Coffee Lounge, Jolie Boutique, Luna de Noche Gourmet Grill and Klad Clothing. Also coming soon is WFAA Channel 8's in-town studio. And, doors open in January or February on another 125,000 sf of retail and restaurant space.

[Houston19514]

Congratulations are in order: the prestigious law firm of Haynes & Boone has announced they will be moving into 175,000 square feet in One Victory Park.

Where are they relocating from, you ask? Why, they will be vacating 216,000 square feet of space in Bank of America Tower in downtown Dallas. Another net loss of 216,000 square feet for the downtown Dallas office market, and another 400 employees who will no longer be walking to lunch spots etc in downtown Dallas. Can someone please remind us again how the Victory project is good for downtown Dallas?

[troyboy]

I work in downtown Dallas and maybe you are not aware of the proximity of Victory from downtown. When I worked at the Cresent in Uptown we walked to downtown all the time for lunch. The only thing that separates Uptown and Downtown is a freeway. Victory is closer to DTD than the Crescent and there's a rail stop there. H&B's employees will still be eating in DTD. The new location all the way in Victory may be a mile away...if that. Bank of America is one of Dallas' premiere towers. I have no doubt the space there will be filled. Most of downtown's vacant space is in much older buildings that will probably be converted to other uses eventually. It's so funny, most people in Dallas don't seem to consider Victory as being removed from downtown. Only people in Houston do.

[UrbaNerd]

This is actually a rendering of the intermodal station, not the Hardy Rail Yards project itself.

Yeah, obviously, but, the whole package should be quite awesome.

But, yeah, Victory's pretty cool. HP isn't in too great of a shape at the moment, though.

[Houston19514]

I work in downtown Dallas and maybe you are not aware of the proximity of Victory from downtown. When I worked at the Cresent in Uptown we walked to downtown all the time for lunch. The only thing that separates Uptown and Downtown is a freeway. Victory is closer to DTD than the Crescent and there's a rail stop there. H&B's employees will still be eating in DTD. The new location all the way in Victory may be a mile away...if that. Bank of America is one of Dallas' premiere towers. I have no doubt the space there will be filled. Most of downtown's vacant space is in much older buildings that will probably be converted to other uses eventually. It's so funny, most people in Dallas don't seem to consider Victory as being removed from downtown. Only people in Houston do.

You would be wrong about that. Every company I am aware of that analyzes and reports on office markets considers Uptown Dallas (including Victory) to be a separate market from Downtown Dallas.

I thought the Victory rail stop was only for special events. Has that changed?

While you personally may have walked from Crescent Court to downtown "all the time" for lunch; I cannot believe very many people would do that routinely. There is a reason transit planners only count on people being willing to walk 1/4 mile to get to a station. And you're telling me that people will walk a MILE to get lunch? It appears that it will be 1/4 mile walk just to get to the other side of the freeway from One Victory Park. I think you're kidding yourself if you think any great number of people will be walking from One Victory Park to downtown Dallas for lunch.

Your statement that "most of downtown's vacant space is in much older buildings" is one of those chamber of commerce spins Dallas has been trying for many years. The last I saw, Downtown Dallas still had a vacancy rate in Class A buildings in the range of 15-20% and it has been at least in that range for what, 20+ years? So, what is it that would give you no doubt that the vacated space will be filled? If it's that easy to fill vacated class A space in downtown Dallas, why the high vacancy rate for two decades and counting?

[Dallasboi]

Congratulations are in order: the prestigious law firm of Haynes & Boone has announced they will be moving into 175,000 square feet in One Victory Park.

Where are they relocating from, you ask? Why, they will be vacating 216,000 square feet of space in Bank of America Tower in downtown Dallas. Another net loss of 216,000 square feet for the downtown Dallas office market, and another 400 employees who will no longer be walking to lunch spots etc in downtown Dallas. Can someone please remind us again how the Victory project is good for downtown Dallas?

Oh give me a break.....Houston is NOT losing companies and people stay downtown on lunch ...which means that HP should have jumped off the ground ....but it seems to be stalled.Why is that....Why did they have to cut the residential portion out?..........One would think that since Houston is sooooo good at retaining companies,that HP Should be building 30 story res.Towers with the project but no....it's not happenig.Why?....because it really dosent matter who works downtown,if it's a good project every one will be happy...downtown And surrounding areas. That's how it's good for Downtown Dallas.

[JasonDFW]

And you're telling me that people will walk a MILE to get lunch? It appears that it will be 1/4 mile walk just to get to the other side of the freeway from One Victory Park.

Last time I walked that route, which was for lunch at On The Border, that walk felt more like 200 yards. It seemed like I got the restaurant in about 5 minutes.

Jason

[Houston19514]

Oh give me a break.....Houston is NOT losing companies and people stay downtown on lunch ...which means that HP should have jumped off the ground ....but it seems to be stalled.Why is that....Why did they have to cut the residential portion out?..........One would think that since Houston is sooooo good at retaining companies,that HP Should be building 30 story res.Towers with the project but no....it's not happenig.Why?....because it really dosent matter who works downtown,if it's a good project every one will be happy...downtown And surrounding areas. That's how it's good for Downtown Dallas.

Huh? Nothing in your rant of a post shows any way in which Victory will be good for Downtown Dallas. "Every one will be happy"??? Everyone except the owners of Downtown Dallas office buildings and hotels...

Perhaps when you've cooled down you can come back and edit that so it makes some sense.

HP is still in process, so what. It's not like Victory Park exactly jumped off the drawing board either, my friend. When did they start that project? Last century some time, IIRC. Houston is doing quite well at retaining and gaining companies in its downtown, thank you very much. Glad you recognized that. In fact, with the recently-announced Chevron lease and other smaller leases, Houston's CBD Class A vacancy rate is below 10%.

I'm not sure why HP is not building their residential component. But it doesn't really matter, does it? Finger is going to build not a 30 story res. tower, but a 37-story res tower, and more will almost certainly be on the way, very soon. And there's a pretty good chance Houston will see some pretty significant new office tower(s) soon as well. Again, all of this is DOWNTOWN, not in some nearby neighborhood. THAT, my friend, will clearly be good for Downtown Houston. And by your logic, I guess that will make everyone happy and therefore be good for Uptown Houston, and heck if everyone is happy, that should make it good for Downtown Dallas too, right?

Last time I walked that route, which was for lunch at On The Border, that walk felt more like 200 yards. It seemed like I got the restaurant in about 5 minutes.

Jason

Which route is that? I was speaking of the walk from a currently non-existent building (One Victory Park) to the south side of the Woodall Rogers. I measured it on Mapmyrun.com. Measuring all the way to On The Border makes for a 4/10 mile walk. If you did that in 5 minutes, you might be in the wrong line of work (maybe Olympic sprinter, messenger service...)

[C2H]

ha! ha! This thread is cracking me up!

I'm from Colorado Springs and like to keep my eyes on what's going on in Texas. I'm not trying to sound biased, but i agree with Houston 19514. I personally think Victory will ultimately "hurt" downtown Dallas. Sure Victory is newer, sleeker, and properly planned. It has some awesome projects, but it will be a trade-off to where you can't have one without taking away from another.

The mistake Dallas is making is not filling and improving the existing office space in its downtown before building more on the outskirts of downtown. Now what its creating are two competing markets in the ring and downtown is getting knocked out. Now most of the employers in downtown are shifting and relocating to the newer buildings in other areas.

I really hope the best for Texas's two main cities. But seeing how the Denver Pavilions project helped generate activity on 16th Street Mall, is why i placed my bets to Houston Pavilions having the bigger impact on the downtown. Dallas seems more about glitz and shine. I think that's great and that's one of the more positive things i brag about when talking about Dallas to others. Hopefully, Dallas can figure out a way to tie these two developements together where they work with eachother and not against eachother.

[houstonfella]

I know you Dallas Uptown-ites loved your walk downtown today. Let's see: 46 deg., cloudy and 50 mph winds. That's gonna make it all so attractive.

Houston Pavilions is just one segment of downtown Houston's growth pattern. One Park Tower and the latest on Texaco building being renovated into 400 luxury condos is promising. Besides, we have Texas' largest CBD and Texas' largest Uptown. Haynes and Boone - 6 floors - little.

[slfunk]

I thought the Victory rail stop was only for special events. Has that changed?

To clarify. Yes and no. Currently it is used for special events. However this is where the green line is coming in that will connect from Carrolton to south of Fair Park. Its the first station on the green line that is now under construction. I believe it will be open to Fair Park by 2009 and Carrolton in 2010. A spur off the green line will connect with DFW airport and Lovefield.

[rantanamo]

Why non-Dallasites really don't get it:

1.) This new building is as close to the West End as One Main Place(which is isolated from almost everything downtown in its own right). I'm sure some map stat about the mileage is about to come out without you realizing that Hooters and the White Swan building and others are two blocks from this building and are very much part of the West End

2.) This is not Houston. Anything "intown" in Dallas competes with office space in other municipalities. Not just other skylines in Dallas. If this firm was looking to relocate within the metroplex, it would have the choice of the Preston Center area, Anywhere along Central Expressway, the Galleria area, Park Central or Far North within the city of Dallas. Then, outside of Dallas proper, in the metroplex, you'd be battling with Addison, Farmers Branch, Nor Tel Corridor, Las Colinas, Fort Worth, West Plano or Frisco for prime class A office space. It is always a victory to have an entity within Dallas proper, let alone one on the outskirts of downtown.

3.) Dallas as a city, does not have any control over developers. They can offer incentives or provide partnerships at most, but they don't control. You'd never understand that reading these boards.

I'm not being a cheerleader about this, but I just don't think the above is understood enough. Competing for leases is simply a different ballgame in DFW. Without Victory(City of Dallas wanted this in the Farmers Market area, see how much influence they had) this firm is likely in one of the new towers in West Plano or Frisco.

[RedScare]

Why non-Dallasites really don't get it:

1.) This new building is as close to the West End as One Main Place(which is isolated from almost everything downtown in its own right). I'm sure some map stat about the mileage is about to come out without you realizing that Hooters and the White Swan building and others are two blocks from this building and are very much part of the West End

2.) This is not Houston. Anything "intown" in Dallas competes with office space in other municipalities. Not just other skylines in Dallas. If this firm was looking to relocate within the metroplex, it would have the choice of the Preston Center area, Anywhere along Central Expressway, the Galleria area, Park Central or Far North within the city of Dallas. Then, outside of Dallas proper, in the metroplex, you'd be battling with Addison, Farmers Branch, Nor Tel Corridor, Las Colinas, Fort Worth, West Plano or Frisco for prime class A office space. It is always a victory to have an entity within Dallas proper, let alone one on the outskirts of downtown.

3.) Dallas as a city, does not have any control over developers. They can offer incentives or provide partnerships at most, but they don't control. You'd never understand that reading these boards.

I'm not being a cheerleader about this, but I just don't think the above is understood enough. Competing for leases is simply a different ballgame in DFW. Without Victory(City of Dallas wanted this in the Farmers Market area, see how much influence they had) this firm is likely in one of the new towers in West Plano or Frisco.

I agree with you that posters on this board largely do not understand that developers are private entities, and not a division of government. Even if they do understand this fact, they ignore it when making blanket statements like "Houston doesn't do this", or "Dallas did that". Posters from both cities have this affliction.

Haynes & Boone would never have moved out of Downtown/Uptown/Victory. Large law firms need relatively quick access to the courthouses, all of which are located downtown. While boutique law firms locate all over the city, the international behemoths stay close to the courthouse.

Non-Dallasites DO get it. Uptown and Victory are on the opposite side of the freeway, just as Midtown is for Houston. We generally talk of them as separate areas because they have different dynamics, even though there is lots of crossover between the two, just as there is between Uptown and Downtown Dallas. However, real estate companies distinguish between Uptown and Downtown, and between Midtown and Downtown. I suppose one could lump the Uptown/Downtown areas together when talking about office leases, just as one could say Downtown/Midtown has over 20,000 residents, but there would be a bit of intellectual dishonesty in the statements.

What I find most interesting is the announcement of construction starting on the House. They said that "nearly 50%" of the units have been sold. While I will leave it to those in the industry to snicker about what "nearly 50%" means, less than 50% commitment is far less than what we usually see in Houston before a project breaks ground. I know that Hillwood has secured financing for all off the buildings going up in Victory, so this probably allows projects to start with fewer commitments, but it does show that Houston developers (or their bankers) are more conservative than what we see in Dallas. It may also explain why the vacancy rate has remained stubbornly high for so long.

[dfwcre8tive]

Last time I walked that route, which was for lunch at On The Border, that walk felt more like 200 yards. It seemed like I got the restaurant in about 5 minutes.

Jason

Yeah, it's about a 5 minute walk between Victory and the West End. With no surface parking lots to cross between the two it seems a lot closer than it really is.

[Houston19514]

Yeah, it's about a 5 minute walk between Victory and the West End. With no surface parking lots to cross between the two it seems a lot closer than it really is.

Starting from what point in Victory? And ending at what point in the West End? Hooters?

[JasonDFW]

Starting from what point in Victory? And ending at what point in the West End? Hooters?

Hooters is in Victory AFAIK. It's been there since there was nothing there but a field if I am remembering right. I was speaking of the same starting point as above, the non-existent 1 Victory Park. I'll just walk it and see rather than rely on my memory of the time which would be affected by my mood that day. By the way 19514, a couple years ago I was doing 5 minute miles, not simply 5 minutes .4 miles, and was being passed up by people in the 35-40 class merely in Dallas so I don't think I'll be in the Olympics anytime soon.

Jason

[Houston19514]

Hooters is in Victory AFAIK. It's been there since there was nothing there but a field if I am remembering right. I was speaking of the same starting point as above, the non-existent 1 Victory Park. I'll just walk it and see rather than rely on my memory of the time which would be affected by my mood that day. By the way 19514, a couple years ago I was doing 5 minute miles, not simply 5 minutes .4 miles, and was being passed up by people in the 35-40 class merely in Dallas so I don't think I'll be in the Olympics anytime soon.

Jason

LOL Yeah, that Olympics thing was a bit of an exaggeration, and just having some fun. But I don't imagine many people do .4 mile in 5 minutes on their strolls to a lunch spot.

[Houston19514]

Why non-Dallasites really don't get it:

1.) This new building is as close to the West End as One Main Place(which is isolated from almost everything downtown in its own right). I'm sure some map stat about the mileage is about to come out without you realizing that Hooters and the White Swan building and others are two blocks from this building and are very much part of the West End

2.) This is not Houston. Anything "intown" in Dallas competes with office space in other municipalities. Not just other skylines in Dallas. If this firm was looking to relocate within the metroplex, it would have the choice of the Preston Center area, Anywhere along Central Expressway, the Galleria area, Park Central or Far North within the city of Dallas. Then, outside of Dallas proper, in the metroplex, you'd be battling with Addison, Farmers Branch, Nor Tel Corridor, Las Colinas, Fort Worth, West Plano or Frisco for prime class A office space. It is always a victory to have an entity within Dallas proper, let alone one on the outskirts of downtown.

3.) Dallas as a city, does not have any control over developers. They can offer incentives or provide partnerships at most, but they don't control. You'd never understand that reading these boards.

I'm not being a cheerleader about this, but I just don't think the above is understood enough. Competing for leases is simply a different ballgame in DFW. Without Victory(City of Dallas wanted this in the Farmers Market area, see how much influence they had) this firm is likely in one of the new towers in West Plano or Frisco.

Oh, I think we really do get it; quite well in fact.

1. One Main Place (at 1201 Main Street) is "isolated from almost everything downtown"? Is that what you meant to say? How can that be so? It appears to be fairly near the middle of downtown, just a couple blocks from Bank of America. And Hooters only 2 blocks away from the new building; and no doubt within walking distance of the new W Hotel. Well, Yee Haw. You guys are developing quite the cosmopolitan little neighborhood up there, aren't you? ;-) No one has ever said Uptown (and Victory) are not close to downtown, and you'll no doubt have some people walking to Hooters for lunch, but the fact remains, they are not downtown Dallas, and they are sucking tenants out of downtown Dallas. That cannot be good for downtown Dallas.

2. No, Dallas is not Houston. But the same market issues apply. The only difference is that more (but by no means all) of downtown Houston's competition is within the city limits. So what? I'll grant you the small "victory" of keeping development in the city proper, rather than in Farmers Branch etc. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it will still hurt downtown Dallas.

3. I understand that Dallas, as a city, does not have complete control over developers. (I recognize there are some posters who seem to think otherwise, but I am not among them.) But another thing one constantly sees on this board is the belief that Dallas, as a city, does have much more control over developers than does Houston, as a city, due to the "Z" word. I have personally always thought that the impact of no-zoning on Houston's development patterns is wildly exaggerated, but many posters, including Dallas posters, seem to think otherwise.

Again, I don't think competing for leases is a different ballgame in Dallas at all. Houston has the same situation of many different office centers competing to host businesses and law firms, etc. Whether they are inside or outside the city limits is really not terribly relevant, because, as you have noted, the cities do not control the developers, nor do the cities control the tenants.

As RedScare said above, without Victory, it is very doubtful that H&B would have moved to Plano or Frisco. They would have stayed in or near downtown. It's a rather sad statement of the condition of downtown Dallas that the choice as you put it seems to be whether to move to Uptown or Frisco/Plano (with a move out of downtown seeminly presumed). Is downtown Dallas really that bad?

So, in the end, I think we (or at least I) actually do understand the situation quite well. I have never said Victory was bad for the city of Dallas as a whole or that it was bad for the D-FW area. Only that it is bad for downtown Dallas. On that point, neither you nor anyone else has provided any reason to think otherwise.

[JasonDFW]

But that doesn't take away from the fact that it will still hurt downtown Dallas.

Of course, I've said this already but I think your view is short sighted and wrong. Downtown Dallas is seeing two big tenants build headquarters there today (nothing for the Houston CBD, a big deal for the Dallas CBD) and I believe a big part of this is the momentum of Victory. I think you'll see tons of spillover into that area. Having a prosperous and thriving neighbor 2 blocks away is WAY more beneficial than having one 15 or 20 miles away. HUGE.

As RedScare said above, without Victory, it is very doubtful that H&B would have moved to Plano or Frisco. They would have stayed in or near downtown.

I think you're absolutely positively wrong on this. There are tons of other options. I'm frankly surprised they're not going into Addison. If I were choosing a location the nearby rail of their current location would have made the decision for me but this is Texas and it is very car-oriented so it wasn't even close to a lock for that area.

It's a rather sad statement of the condition of downtown Dallas that the choice as you put it seems to be whether to move to Uptown or Frisco/Plano (with a move out of downtown seeminly presumed). Is downtown Dallas really that bad?

It's not that Downtown Dallas is that bad, it's that there are HUGE pulls from major economic centers to the north. When the largest airport in the world was built where it was, it effectively tugged the whole region north (which was already happening but it drastically amplified it). Dallas and Fort Worth have suffered a lot and a lot of northern suburbs have thrived. There are no telecom corridors to the south, no Headquarters Drive, no Addison, no Las Colinas, no Southlake, no Alliance (yet, and the reason I think that project is way more crucial than Red gives it credit for), no UNT, etc... so businesses have no reason to be in the CBD (or very little) because they can survive (and thrive) on the huge and talented workforce to the north. Houston has nothing like this.

Jason

[Houston19514]

Of course, I've said this already but I think your view is short sighted and wrong. Downtown Dallas is seeing two big tenants build headquarters there today (nothing for the Houston CBD, a big deal for the Dallas CBD) and I believe a big part of this is the momentum of Victory. I think you'll see tons of spillover into that area. Having a prosperous and thriving neighbor 2 blocks away is WAY more beneficial than having one 15 or 20 miles away. HUGE.

Jason

Well, I don't think it's particularly good for downtown Dallas to have those two building under construction either. On the contrary. The result of that construction will be significantly higher vacancy rates for downtown Dallas. That, seemingly, is one difference between Dallas and Houston. In Dallas, you just keep building new buildings, the hell with the consequences for the market. Doesn't seem to work quite the same way in Houston. Not sure why.

Now, I agree that if the choices are (a) building adjacent to downtown, or ( building 20 miles away, I would choose (a) as being less damaging to downtown. But it's still damaging. What sort of "spillover" do you see into the CBD? (And the fact that you are hoping that "spillover" from a new, neighboring development will save your downtown sort of proves my point that the initial impact will be damaging to downtown.) Greenway Plaza hurts downtown Houston. Could it have hurt more had it been 20 miles away? Yes, I would say so. Could it have hurt marginally less had it been built adjacent to downtown? Yes, probably so. But it still would have hurt.

I think you're absolutely positively wrong on this. There are tons of other options. I'm frankly surprised they're not going into Addison. If I were choosing a location the nearby rail of their current location would have made the decision for me but this is Texas and it is very car-oriented so it wasn't even close to a lock for that area.

Jason

With respect, I suspect you know very little about office location decisions by major law firms. They are almost exclusively downtown or very near downtown.

[JasonDFW]

Well, I don't think it's particularly good for downtown Dallas to have those two building under construction either. On the contrary. The result of that construction will be significantly higher vacancy rates for downtown Dallas. That, seemingly, is one difference between Dallas and Houston. In Dallas, you just keep building new buildings, the hell with the consequences for the market. Doesn't seem to work quite the same way in Houston. Not sure why.

I believe you're wrong on this as well. We will see in the end whether the vacancy rates rise.

(And the fact that you are hoping that "spillover" from a new, neighboring development will save your downtown sort of proves my point that the initial impact will be damaging to downtown.)

No, not at all. Downtown needed "saving" far before any of this. For the reasons I mentioned above.

With respect, I suspect you know very little about office location decisions by major law firms. They are almost exclusively downtown or very near downtown.

Sorry, I was talking about the HofB not the H&B. Back on the topic of law firms I've found the knowledge of Dallas law firms by others on this board lacking given some earlier comments on this particular topic. To be expected of course.

Jason

[Houston19514]

It's not that Downtown Dallas is that bad, it's that there are HUGE pulls from major economic centers to the north. When the largest airport in the world was built where it was, it effectively tugged the whole region north (which was already happening but it drastically amplified it). Dallas and Fort Worth have suffered a lot and a lot of northern suburbs have thrived. There are no telecom corridors to the south, no Headquarters Drive, no Addison, no Las Colinas, no Southlake, no Alliance (yet, and the reason I think that project is way more crucial than Red gives it credit for), no UNT, etc... so businesses have no reason to be in the CBD (or very little) because they can survive (and thrive) on the huge and talented workforce to the north. Houston has nothing like this.

Jason

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be on the verge of agreeing with me that Victory hurts downtown Dallas, but it's the best Dallas can be expected to do because of the unfortunate one-sided growth pattern. First, let me say that it is an exaggeration to say Houston has nothing like this. There is a huge pull to the west for the energy firms because their employee base is centered closer to the Beltway than it is to downtown. There are also pulls to the north. I agree with the basic premise, though, that downtown Houston benefits in the long run from the more-concentric development pattern that Houston has (and Dallas gets all the kudos for planning and zoning; go figure). But your argument proves too much. If businesses have no reason to be in the CBD, they surely have no reason to be in Uptown or Victory either (with it being only a 5-minute walk from or actually a part of the CBD as you and/or others here have told us). And yet, businesses are apparently choosing to locate in Uptown and Victory. Are they moving north from downtown so they can be two blocks closer to Plano? ;-)

[rantanamo]

Oh, I think we really do get it; quite well in fact.

1. One Main Place (at 1201 Main Street) is "isolated from almost everything downtown"? Is that what you meant to say? How can that be so? It appears to be fairly near the middle of downtown, just a couple blocks from Bank of America. And Hooters only 2 blocks away from the new building; and no doubt within walking distance of the new W Hotel. Well, Yee Haw. You guys are developing quite the cosmopolitan little neighborhood up there, aren't you? ;-) No one has ever said Uptown (and Victory) are not close to downtown, and you'll no doubt have some people walking to Hooters for lunch, but the fact remains, they are not downtown Dallas, and they are sucking tenants out of downtown Dallas. That cannot be good for downtown Dallas.

blah, blah blah. What I mean is One Main Place is isolated from what we consider the core of downtown and all of the new fangled development and renovations. Its no closer to the West End than Victory. Reality. I see where you got of on a bashing tangent. Great argument. Deal in facts.

2. No, Dallas is not Houston. But the same market issues apply. The only difference is that more (but by no means all) of downtown Houston's competition is within the city limits. So what? I'll grant you the small "victory" of keeping development in the city proper, rather than in Farmers Branch etc. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it will still hurt downtown Dallas.

This is why I say that you don't get it. The same market issues don't apply. When a business builds in the Houston area, there is simply less competition within your region for office space. The vast majority of which is in the city of Houston. Dallas does not have that luxury.

Why is it important to stay in the city limits of Dallas?

- tax monies(If the firm goes to Las Colinas Dallas possibly doesn't get new fangled Victory building and its taxes

- employee exposure to Dallas proper

- businesses host clients from all over. Again, exposure and monies to Dallas proper. Example. Client from Cali is looking to relocate, I'd rather have them near the West End, and staying at the W than trouncing around the Four Seasons or Mandalay in Las Colinas.

Why is it important to keep them in DTD proximity

- Use of downtown business, by bus, car train, walking or whatever

- Increased rail and bus ridership, gives more monies to DART and increases Dallas allocation of projects

- exposure to DTD

- people in proximity use business. I work in Uptown on McKinney Ave. Despite the percieved distance from the downtown core, we find ourselves eating downtown at least 3 days a week. We can drive. We can bus(#21), we can trolley, we can rail downtown. Victory is a lot closer to DTD than we are. I imagine people in this building will be at places like Stephen Pyles all the time.

3. I understand that Dallas, as a city, does not have complete control over developers. (I recognize there are some posters who seem to think otherwise, but I am not among them.) But another thing one constantly sees on this board is the belief that Dallas, as a city, does have much more control over developers than does Houston, as a city, due to the "Z" word. I have personally always thought that the impact of no-zoning on Houston's development patterns is wildly exaggerated, but many posters, including Dallas posters, seem to think otherwise.

Zoning gives control over what type and some specifics of how and what a development can be. That gives control to say, well in this area(Victory for example) you can have setbacks of this distance, this percentage of groundspace must be mixed-use, this height can be built, etc, etc. It has a huge impact in the sense, that a State-Thomas, West Village or Victory would be impossible to do in Houston with multiple developers coming into an area. For example, the area where I work is lined with taller buildings, surrounded by midrise apt and condo buildings, then surrounded by townhomes a little further out. That would be harder to do in Houston, thus in Dallas we have areas like this in Uptown, Turtle Creeks, West Village, etc, where you aren't just having skylines pop-up, but well infilled areas. You're also having more likelihood of a Bryan Place popping up, because you have to build according to that zoning.

Again, I don't think competing for leases is a different ballgame in Dallas at all. Houston has the same situation of many different office centers competing to host businesses and law firms, etc. Whether they are inside or outside the city limits is really not terribly relevant, because, as you have noted, the cities do not control the developers, nor do the cities control the tenants.

Completely different ballgame. As Houston's suburbs develop to the point of the Planos, Irvings and Friscos of the world, you will see that difference in the two current markets. Its not a bash on Houston. I wish DFW suburbs were more like Houston's at this stage.

To say that it makes no difference if its within a given city limits is just ridiculous for reasons explained before. Its a bloodbath up here for everything from amusement parks, sports venues, large scale events, to leasing tenants in Class A office space. Such things create tax base and revenues to support other development. Cities like Frisco and McKinney are out to be the 3rd city in the metroplex. No joke. I'd put Dallas as more like LA than Houston in that sense. There are business centers all over southern Cali. Competition is fierce.

As RedScare said above, without Victory, it is very doubtful that H&B would have moved to Plano or Frisco. They would have stayed in or near downtown. It's a rather sad statement of the condition of downtown Dallas that the choice as you put it seems to be whether to move to Uptown or Frisco/Plano (with a move out of downtown seeminly presumed). Is downtown Dallas really that bad?

And this is where it really gets off. To say that wouldn't move to Plano, Frisco, Richardson, Las Colinas, Farmers Branch, Addison or Westlake is simply ignorance to the DFW market. There are hundreds of examples of the northern migration in DFW. Everytime a lease is up in DTD or Uptown, the rumors begin to swirl about a move to newer, CHEAPER space up north, with more parking, and closer to "Prosper schools" or "country living"

So, in the end, I think we (or at least I) actually do understand the situation quite well. I have never said Victory was bad for the city of Dallas as a whole or that it was bad for the D-FW area. Only that it is bad for downtown Dallas. On that point, neither you nor anyone else has provided any reason to think otherwise. I've never read of a company saying DTD was horrible. I've read, cool new office space. CHEAPER office space, closer to DFW Airport. I think as said before, a lot is the proximity to the Southern Sector and just DFW suburban ignorance(yes, we are ignorant up here). Thankfully, my company is talking of moving to or closer to downtown. And no downtown is not bad. Its just not as shiny and new as other places. The construction has slowly crept south though, and we have two office buildings under construction.

Recognize.

[JasonDFW]

Greenway Plaza hurts downtown Houston. Could it have hurt more had it been 20 miles away? Yes, I would say so. Could it have hurt marginally less had it been built adjacent to downtown? Yes, probably so. But it still would have hurt.

This is a very different situation in Houston and I don't believe it is a great comparison. Just to put some scale on the difference, I believe (please correct me I'm not an expert on this) that if you draw a line between the south end of Downtown Dallas and Fort Worth, that there would be ~25 Fortune 500 companies north of that line and zero south of that line. If my numbers are off I doubt they're far off. It's not so much the distance as the northern bias.

jason

[Houston19514]

I believe you're wrong on this as well. We will see in the end whether the vacancy rates rise.

No, not at all. Downtown needed "saving" far before any of this. For the reasons I mentioned above.

Sorry, I was talking about the HofB not the H&B. Back on the topic of law firms I've found the knowledge of Dallas law firms by others on this board lacking given some earlier comments on this particular topic. To be expected of course.

Jason

Hunt will vacate probably several hundred thousand square feet of space when it moves to its new building. Around the same time H&B (the law firm, not the Blues restaurant) will vacate 200,000+ square feet in Bank of America Plaza. I'm sure a good portion of the other tenants moving into Victory and the other new Uptown office space are also vacating space downtown. How are vacancy rates going to do anything other than rise? Somehow now, suddenly, after 20 years of the same promises, downtown Dallas will see an influx of new tenants??? I know you hope that to be the case; but there seems to be a dearth of evidence to support that hope.

And this is where it really gets off. To say that wouldn't move to Plano, Frisco, Richardson, Las Colinas, Farmers Branch, Addison or Westlake is simply ignorance to the DFW market. There are hundreds of examples of the northern migration in DFW. Everytime a lease is up in DTD or Uptown, the rumors begin to swirl about a move to newer, CHEAPER space up north, with more parking, and closer to "Prosper schools" or "country living"

We are speaking of the location choices of a major law firm. To say that major law firms will move to Plano, Frisco, Richardson, etc etc. is simply ignorance of law firm location decisions and economics. How many major law firms have relocated to Plano?

[Houston19514]

blah, blah blah. What I mean is One Main Place is isolated from what we consider the core of downtown and all of the new fangled development and renovations. Its no closer to the West End than Victory. Reality. I see where you got of on a bashing tangent. Great argument. Deal in facts.

This is why I say that you don't get it. The same market issues don't apply. When a business builds in the Houston area, there is simply less competition within your region for office space. The vast majority of which is in the city of Houston. Dallas does not have that luxury.

Bashing? Good grief. Just a little light humor about the juxtaposition of a W Hotel blocks away from a Hooters. Get over yourself already.

I'm not sure what Dallas' supposed greater competition really has to do with the question at hand of whether Victory helps or hurts downtown Dallas. But for whatever reason, it does seem clear that Victory and Uptown are better at the competition than downtown is. However much of a tangent it may be, I'll play along for a bit. Are the suburbs offering incentives to builders and tenants? Well, so is Sugar Land, and probably The Woodlands, so Houston is certainly not totally devoid of such issues. D-FW may have more trouble in this regard than Houston (again, tell me again all of you anti-zoning, anti-annexation folks why Dallas' style of planning is so much better).

But that's all really off the point anyway. That might be some of the reason for Dallas' weak downtown office market, but whatever the competitive situation, the Victory and Uptown buildings are in the same competitive D-FW market as is downtown Dallas. And tenants are moving out of downtown Dallas and into Victory and Uptown. How is that not bad for downtown Dallas?

Are you, like JasonDFW, on the verge of agreeing with me but throwing up your hands saying, yeah, but it's the best Dallas can hope for?

To say that it makes no difference if its within a given city limits is just ridiculous for reasons explained before. Its a bloodbath up here for everything from amusement parks, sports venues, large scale events, to leasing tenants in Class A office space. Such things create tax base and revenues to support other development. Cities like Frisco and McKinney are out to be the 3rd city in the metroplex. No joke. I'd put Dallas as more like LA than Houston in that sense. There are business centers all over southern Cali. Competition is fierce.

Of course you know very well that I never said that it makes no difference to the city if a development is within the city limits or not. What I said was that it is not terribly relevant to our discussion. Competition is competition (except of course for the added bonus of incentives that we get from suburban competitors.) Of course there is competition for tenants. What's your point? Again, is it that this is the best Dallas can hope for?

This is a very different situation in Houston and I don't believe it is a great comparison. Just to put some scale on the difference, I believe (please correct me I'm not an expert on this) that if you draw a line between the south end of Downtown Dallas and Fort Worth, that there would be ~25 Fortune 500 companies north of that line and zero south of that line. If my numbers are off I doubt they're far off. It's not so much the distance as the northern bias.

jason

Not sure what your point is, Jason. Or its possible relevance to the question of whether Victory hurts or helps downtown Dallas. FWIW I already acknowledged that Dallas (and downtown Dallas in particular) suffers from the poor planning that allowed/encouraged all of the development to go to the north. What more can I say?

[JasonDFW]

Not sure what your point is, Jason. Or its possible relevance to the question of whether Victory hurts or helps downtown Dallas. FWIW I already acknowledged that Dallas (and downtown Dallas in particular) suffers from the poor planning that allowed/encouraged all of the development to go to the north. What more can I say?

I'm not surprised you don't understand the relevance to this topic. That has seemed to be a problem from the beginning. I'm not saying it's the best we can do, I'm saying it is a very positive thing for downtown Dallas. Time will tell. How about we meet here in 1 year and analyze real estate and housing data to see who is right? I'll make an Outlook reminder now.

Jason