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august948

Crime and Inequality

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You can bet that.

Blow some "thug" brain matter all over the sidewalk and the next would be robbers might re-think things.

 

Enough thugs get blown away on a regular enough basis by armed citizens or later by the justice system that you would think the next set of would-be thugs would think twice, but they don't.  Why?  Because they're not the think-ahead types.

 

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Getting bolder and bolder every day. That is not even a 1/4 mile from the police station. If HPD does not step it up somebody is going to get murdered in one of these robberies.

It's a sign of desperation. Income inequality is at its largest point in the US since the 1920s and Houston has one of the largest income gaps in the country. We all get understandably excited at the economic growth that's happening here, but it's also going to create more tension and jealousy from those who are excluded.

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It's a sign of desperation. Income inequality is at its largest point in the US since the 1920s and Houston has one of the largest income gaps in the country. We all get understandably excited at the economic growth that's happening here, but it's also going to create more tension and jealousy from those who are excluded.

 

This neocon says the solution to crime/income inequality is something called "Summer Opportunity Scholarships" and restitution by offenders:

http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/346995/multigenerational-poverty-crime-control-and-civil-society

Could there be a structural problem inherent in having a constantly-replenishing supply of immigrants accumulating like a sedimentary layer on top of the urban black underclass?

Nah.

 

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It's a sign of desperation. Income inequality is at its largest point in the US since the 1920s and Houston has one of the largest income gaps in the country. We all get understandably excited at the economic growth that's happening here, but it's also going to create more tension and jealousy from those who are excluded.

B.S.

I don't make what the people shopping at Hermes make, but the "inequality" does not cause a state of desperation that causes me to hold the place up. In fact most of my friends make a great deal more than I do, which does not cause me any tension, jealousy, or envy. I see how hard they work for what they have, and I am happy for them. Please tell me who or what outside of my own choices "excludes" me from what they have?

Mattress Mac once spoke at a company I worked at. He said that when people ask him how he became sucessful he tells them that he won the lottery, "I was born in the United States". Regardless of what the haters say, opportunity is here in spades hence our influx of immigrants from all nations. It's easier here, we just have a growing number of people that want to avoid effort and have the fruits handed to them.

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So you're basically saying that macroeconomic factors have no impact. People succeed or fail entirely based on their own abilities. Got it. I'm expecting some comments about the 47% any minute now.

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So you're basically saying that macroeconomic factors have no impact. People succeed or fail entirely based on their own abilities. Got it. I'm expecting some comments about the 47% any minute now.

 

Macroecomic factors are not nearly as big a factor as the desire of the criminals to make a quick buck with little effort. Stealing bread to feed your dids may be driven by economics, but the restaurant robbers are just out looking to make enough money to buy beer, drugs, women, etc. Chanign the distribution of income isn't going to make these guys stop robbing - they wouldn't have a real job if was handed to them on a plate. They are similar, in fact, to the recent graduates that occasionally pass through my office all upset that htey aren't a manager after 3 years. Whiny jerks who think they are entitled to a wonderful life merely for existing.

 

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Inequality leading to desperation?  What a joke.  These welfare parasites get Medicaid, section 8, food stamps, WIC, and a plethora of other taxpayer funded wealth transference programs.  We need to go South American style; Paramilitary units to socially cleanse the undesirables and dump them in Buffalo Bayou.  "Clean Houston, Beautiful Houston".

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desperation?  The American Plantation is a popular lifestyle.  waiting for your welfare check once/month.  Earn money under the table so that you can maximize your opportunity for benefits.  won't volunteer to improve the community.  provide no positive influence.  rely on school dist to provide free breakfast and lunch to their children.

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desperation? The American Plantation is a popular lifestyle. waiting for your welfare check once/month. Earn money under the table so that you can maximize your opportunity for benefits. won't volunteer to improve the community. provide no positive influence. rely on school dist to provide free breakfast and lunch to their children.

Pretty much. It's like being a slave on Sunday in the South, you're not working, but you're still a slave.

One of my favorite quotes about work states; "There is no such thing as a bad job, only bad men unwilling to do it". I don't agree with that 100%, but I will tell you that draining and scrubbing out deep-fat fryers every week was character-building for me, and a catalyist to going back to school.

And about that minimum wage:

post-11142-0-47118000-1379872464_thumb.j

Edited by TGM

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Ah, the usual deep and insightful analysis that I've come to expect from HAIF. It's a pretty conclusively documented fact that there is a strong coorelation between income inequality and crime rates. Income inequality is becoming an increasing problem in Houston and the current wave of economic growth that is underway will increase that disparity. Therefore it isn't a big stretch to conclude that we will see some increase in crime as well.

I'm not talking about the individual crime referenced, I'm talking about overall crime rate. You can go ahead and return to your originally scheduled, "they just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps" conversation.

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It's a pretty conclusively documented fact that there is a strong coorelation between income inequality and crime rates. Income inequality is becoming an increasing problem in Houston and the current wave of economic growth that is underway will increase that disparity. Therefore it isn't a big stretch to conclude that we will see some increase in crime as well.

I'm confused. Are you saying that economic growth will increase 'income inequality"? Because if that is the case then this means when you use the term "income inequality" you are really saying "people too lazy to apply effort", and I know there is no way you could agree to that definition.

If you believe that economic growth will increase the inequality then economic contraction would cause the opposite, which is to reduce the inequality. In essence this means that those with more would lose their jobs, and thus would now be equal.

What does not change is the efforts of the people you want to group-hug, the proletariat. The world somehow revolves around them, yet they never have opportunity. If things are good it is bad for them, if things are bad, then it's still bad for them, and it's bad for everyone else as well. However, everyone else does not choose to turn to crime when life is bad. When you refuse to put forth the effort to take the first, or next step then you're always going to remain unequal.

Edited by TGM

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Ah, the usual deep and insightful analysis that I've come to expect from HAIF. It's a pretty conclusively documented fact that there is a strong coorelation between income inequality and crime rates. Income inequality is becoming an increasing problem in Houston and the current wave of economic growth that is underway will increase that disparity. Therefore it isn't a big stretch to conclude that we will see some increase in crime as well.

I'm not talking about the individual crime referenced, I'm talking about overall crime rate. You can go ahead and return to your originally scheduled, "they just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps" conversation.

The rub is that to get less income inequality you typically need to have a aggressively progressive tax system that redistributes wealth for the overall benefit of society.

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I always find it amazing that people understand "cutting out the middleman" when it comes to finding the best deal on consumer goods, yet believe that a government full of middlemen is somehow best for society.

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In a perfect world you don't need the middleman and the government withers away. That's the odd idea that links marxism and libertarianism together. Both cases ignore history, experience, and human nature.

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Ah, the usual deep and insightful analysis that I've come to expect from HAIF. It's a pretty conclusively documented fact that there is a strong coorelation between income inequality and crime rates. Income inequality is becoming an increasing problem in Houston and the current wave of economic growth that is underway will increase that disparity. Therefore it isn't a big stretch to conclude that we will see some increase in crime as well.

I'm not talking about the individual crime referenced, I'm talking about overall crime rate. You can go ahead and return to your originally scheduled, "they just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps" conversation.

please provide conclusive evidence.

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Wow.  The above link literally blames Seinfeld.  I suspect you didn't read the whole thing. 

 

It doesnt actually blame sienfeld - it merely stated that Seinfeld was celebrating being a loser on TV, making it ok to be a loser instead of calling a loser a loser..they made it funny, acceptable even to be a loser.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the Social policies and the influence of hollywood and pop/hip hop culuture of the left have discouraged work and productivity.  The social programs take away the negative effects of bad decisions, hollywood/media/music glorify getting yours for doing nothing.  You get mad at your boss?  Tell him off and get fired.  Its ok - you've got 99 weeks of unemployment and an EBT card to carry you until you can find another sucker to hire you again.

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Ah, the usual deep and insightful analysis that I've come to expect from HAIF. It's a pretty conclusively documented fact that there is a strong coorelation between income inequality and crime rates. Income inequality is becoming an increasing problem in Houston and the current wave of economic growth that is underway will increase that disparity. Therefore it isn't a big stretch to conclude that we will see some increase in crime as well.

I'm not talking about the individual crime referenced, I'm talking about overall crime rate. You can go ahead and return to your originally scheduled, "they just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps" conversation.

 

Good analysis.

It's a sign of desperation. Income inequality is at its largest point in the US since the 1920s and Houston has one of the largest income gaps in the country. We all get understandably excited at the economic growth that's happening here, but it's also going to create more tension and jealousy from those who are excluded.

 

And it's only getting worse.

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It doesnt actually blame sienfeld - it merely stated that Seinfeld was celebrating being a loser on TV, making it ok to be a loser instead of calling a loser a loser..they made it funny, acceptable even to be a loser.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the Social policies and the influence of hollywood and pop/hip hop culuture of the left have discouraged work and productivity.  The social programs take away the negative effects of bad decisions, hollywood/media/music glorify getting yours for doing nothing.  You get mad at your boss?  Tell him off and get fired.  Its ok - you've got 99 weeks of unemployment and an EBT card to carry you until you can find another sucker to hire you again.

 

 

An original Seinfeld hasn't aired in 15 years and is completely irrelevant. 

 

Not sure what hip hop you listen to but they usually celebrate hustling and making money.

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An original Seinfeld hasn't aired in 15 years and is completely irrelevant.

Not sure what hip hop you listen to but they usually celebrate hustling and making money.

I'm not sure what you think hustling means, but it's not about proactive customer relationship management.

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Good analysis.

 

And it's only getting worse.

Since you're such an expert, Do you have information about income inequality in Houston?  What are the numbers?

 

The Houston area and much of Texas is booming, do you mean that there has been little effect except to the upper class?  For instance, what about all the construction, who builds that stuff? In the oil industry has there been hiring of only upper class? Do you think there has been a decline of the middle class in Houston, a loss of construction jobs, a loss of manufacturing jobs, a loss of service jobs?

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Since you're such an expert, Do you have information about income inequality in Houston?  What are the numbers?

 

The Houston area and much of Texas is booming, do you mean that there has been little effect except to the upper class?  For instance, what about all the construction, who builds that stuff? In the oil industry has there been hiring of only upper class? Do you think there has been a decline of the middle class in Houston, a loss of construction jobs, a loss of manufacturing jobs, a loss of service jobs?

 

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/city_life/11-13-11-where-the-gap-lives-houston-has-the-fourth-highest-income-inequality-in-america/

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If you take the 3 houses near me, 1 to my left and 2 to my right you'll discover that I am the token victim of the latest leftist meme. My neighbors consist of 3 petroleum engineers, a small business owner, and one medical professional. Each household probably makes 50% more than what we take in. Boo-freaking-hoo. I guess now knowing this I'm going knock over a Subway because I'm so distraught and envious of my neighbors.

You will find in any area that is undergoing renewal "income inequity" residents that have been living cheaply in the years prior to the revitalization and new residents willing to pay todays market value. Even in areas not undergoing significant renewal (like Timbergrove) you will find inequity in income solely based on the fact that the demographics include young double-incomes and retired seniors. So what?

If you're looking for the smoking bullet that separates those who commit crime versus those that do not then I would suggest looking at individual choices not blanket generalizations such as income status, race, or political views.

Edited by TGM

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I guess now knowing this I'm going knock over a Subway because I'm so distraught and envious of my neighbors.

 

You are WAY to simplistic in your view. I'm guessing you aren't struggling to feed your family, or live in a neighborhood where the guys with the most money seem to be gang-bangers or dealers? In your neighborhood, you see success first-hand being achieved via jobs and education. In poorer neighborhoods, the only success they typically see first-hand is through more nefarious means. They live in a neighborhood w/out petroleum engineers, and come from a family that has probably had more struggles than you can imagine. The only way to help them is through education and showing them first-hand examples of successful people. The Republican route of slashing education funding and reducing investments in their communities will only exacerbate crime and inequality.

Edited by brian0123
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You are WAY to simplistic in your view. I'm guessing you aren't struggling to feed your family, or live in a neighborhood where the guys with the most money seem to be gang-bangers or dealers? In your neighborhood, you see success first-hand being achieved via jobs and education. In poorer neighborhoods, the only success they typically see first-hand is through more nefarious means. They live in a neighborhood w/out petroleum engineers, and come from a family that has probably had more struggles than you can imagine. The only way to help them is through education and showing them first-hand examples of successful people. The Republican route of slashing education funding and reducing investments in their communities will only exacerbate crime and inequality.

What is simplistic is assuming that people living in lower-income neighborhoods are too stupid to figure things out for themselves. If that were the case then no one in poorer foreign contries would be able to put two and two together and formulate a plan to come to the United States. Furthermore once they got here and were settled in an affortable area they somehow were able to rise up without the help of the benevolent government hand. How did they do that? It's downright amazing, magical. And even more amazing is that despite the fact that they were surrounded by criminals they managed to walk the straight and narrow. The Vietnamese community is a living example of how this is possible.

Edited by TGM

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Funny that you should mention the successful assimilation of the Vietnamese into American culture. I take it then that you'd support some sort of Act similar to the 1975 Indochina Migration and Refugee Assistance Act since that was obviously successful? Maybe we could extend those services to all immigrants? What say you, TGM?

 

Or, did you forget that those bootstraps the Vietnamese pulled themselves up by were more often than not provided for by government assistance?

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Funny that you should mention the successful assimilation of the Vietnamese into American culture. I take it then that you'd support some sort of Act similar to the 1975 Indochina Migration and Refugee Assistance Act since that was obviously successful? Maybe we could extend those services to all immigrants? What say you, TGM?

 

Or, did you forget that those bootstraps the Vietnamese pulled themselves up by were more often than not provided for by government assistance?

 

I certainly do.

 

On the subject of crime and poor people, I live in a neighborhood where most of the people that live here bought their house for peanuts, in some cases possibly literally. In this neighborhood, yes, there are some bad eggs, but for the most part everyone that lives here goes to work, they work hard, then they come home and enjoy time with their families and friends. What they may lack in material possessions, making them poor by some standards, they are morally some of the richest people I have ever known.

 

Morally poor people will always default to crime no matter their socioeconomic status, or their material wealth, it's the ones that are monetarily poor to go with it that usually end up getting caught, or can't afford the lawyers to get them out of it. 

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I just hope TGM watches out for all those roaming gangs of wealthy, college educated thugs who are robbing stores, dealing, and holding people up at gunpoint on a daily basis. :unsure:

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What is simplistic is assuming that people living in lower-income neighborhoods are too stupid to figure things out for themselves. If that were the case then no one in poorer foreign contries would be able to put two and two together and formulate a plan to come to the United States. Furthermore once they got here and were settled in an affortable area they somehow were able to rise up without the help of the benevolent government hand. How did they do that? It's downright amazing, magical. And even more amazing is that despite the fact that they were surrounded by criminals they managed to walk the straight and narrow. The Vietnamese community is a living example of how this is possible.

 

The high majority of legal immigrants that come are not poor.

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When you look into the topic of crime (property theft mainly, violent crime being way down) and the income gap, there seems to be general agreement that there's definitely a link; and that it's complex and "not well-understood."

 

The high majority of legal immigrants that come are not poor.

 

I have found the Center for Immigration Studies to be the entity that most regularly generates reports on the effects of immigration. That they have an agenda is, I would estimate, about equally balanced by the hostility they engender in the media. The result is that they seem to try very hard to prepare purely data-driven reports, in an effort to keep on topic. They know they are unwelcome at the table in any case.

 

Here's a passage from "Welfare Use by Immigrant Households with Children: A Look at Cash, Medicaid, Housing, and Food Programs" (http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011):


"One way to describe what happens in regard to welfare is to recognize that most immigrants come to America to work, and most find jobs. However, many of those who have children earn very low wages because of their education levels. As a result, many immigrants with children qualify for welfare programs, primarily food assistance and Medicaid. Put a different way, the nation’s welfare system is designed in part to assist low-income workers with children. A very large share of immigrants who have entered the country both legally and illegally are low-income workers with children. This has a predictable impact on the nation’s welfare system."
 
They are thus at pains to stress what we can all see: it is not an unwillingness to work that brings people to America.
 
The US Census obviously doesn't inquire about immigration status, but the CIS claims to use the methodology of the the Urban Institute, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the "former INS", the Pew Hispanic Center, and the Census Bureau itself for separating out legal immigrants from the overall foreign-born population.
 
This table shows that in 2008/2009 54% of legal immigrants to Texas used some form of welfare:

immigrant-welfare-use-4-11-t7.jpg
 
It might easily be argued that this data merely shows welfare working well, benefitting working people with children.
 
A lot of smart people both right and left believe it is good policy, and a permanent economic and social boon for the country, to continually increase the number of low-wage earners in the population, and to depress wages. Barbara Jordan was a rare and notable exception.
 
But a lot of the very same people believe equally strongly in, and deplore the conditions that create, this connection between relative incomes and crime.
 
My only comment: it doesn't seem like you should get to hold both these opinions, unless you have an unreasoning faith that you "can have it all."

 

Edited by luciaphile

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I just hope TGM watches out for all those roaming gangs of wealthy, college educated thugs who are robbing stores, dealing, and holding people up at gunpoint on a daily basis. :unsure:

The better educated and wealthy, but morally deficient, tend to prefer ponzi schemes and mortgage fraud to knocking off the local liquor store.

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Funny that you should mention the successful assimilation of the Vietnamese into American culture. I take it then that you'd support some sort of Act similar to the 1975 Indochina Migration and Refugee Assistance Act since that was obviously successful? Maybe we could extend those services to all immigrants? What say you, TGM?

Or, did you forget that those bootstraps the Vietnamese pulled themselves up by were more often than not provided for by government assistance?

No doubt that helped, but the primary reason Vietnamese have been successful here is cultural. Old school Vietnamese parents want their kids to be doctors, or if not an MD then at least a college educated professional and/or business owner. And they push their kids hard to acheive that. I know firsthand that many Vietnamese wonder why poor hispanics and blacks choose to remain that way generation after generation while they come here not knowing the language and with little more than the clothes on their backs and are middle class within a generation or less.

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Or, did you forget that those bootstraps the Vietnamese pulled themselves up by were more often than not provided for by government assistance?

Rubbish. I just arrived home from a restuarant owned by someone who fled Vietnam to arrive first in Ohio. A couple hearing his story paid for him to move to Houston where he worked his butt off to ultimately own a business.

The fact of the matter is liberals like yourself and government in general needs people to need them.

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It might easily be argued that this data merely shows welfare working well, benefitting working people with children.

Yes, welfare is a runaway phenomenal success. In fact the retention rates are amongst the highest for multi-generational households.

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No doubt that helped, but the primary reason Vietnamese have been successful here is cultural. Old school Vietnamese parents want their kids to be doctors, or if not an MD then at least a college educated professional and/or business owner. And they push their kids hard to acheive that. I know firsthand that many Vietnamese wonder why poor hispanics and blacks choose to remain that way generation after generation while they come here not knowing the language and with little more than the clothes on their backs and are middle class within a generation or less.

 

Hispanics work hard.

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Hispanics work hard.

 

No doubt.  Yet pursuing higher education, or even completing high school, isn't the priority in the hispanic community at large that it is in the Vietnamese community.

 

 

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Hispanics work hard.

Absolutely. All groups are capable of working both hard and smart. Making choices, planing, and acting on one's plan are the basic components to success.

The entrepreneurial spirit is alive in many that arrive in this contry because they are not hamstrung by the negative talk and self-defeating behaviors of those that group up here and come to believe the pollution their families seek to instill in them.

The path out of poverty and bad neighborhoods is the same for both those living here and those fleeing the countries of their birth. It's acting with single-mindedness one step at a time, being mindfull that the things that matter the most should not be held hostage by the things that matter the least.

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Hispanics work hard.

It always amazes me that stereotypes that are seen as societal positives are forgiven, but stereotypes that are not as favourable are frowned upon.

I'd say, if a person has grown up being told that they need a handout to survive, they are going to believe that. Regardless of their racial origin, or skin color.

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It always amazes me that stereotypes that are seen as societal positives are forgiven, but stereotypes that are not as favourable are frowned upon.

I'd say, if a person has grown up being told that they need a handout to survive, they are going to believe that. Regardless of their racial origin, or skin color.

 

I agree. There are generations of people that have relied on handouts. Would eliminating those handouts cause crime to increase or would it inspire people to succeed in life? 

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Rubbish. I just arrived home from a restuarant owned by someone who fled Vietnam to arrive first in Ohio. A couple hearing his story paid for him to move to Houston where he worked his butt off to ultimately own a business.

The fact of the matter is liberals like yourself and government in general needs people to need them.

 

Cool story.

 

Not sure how or why you think it takes away from what I originally posted...

 

Like a typical conservative, you ignore facts and throw out insults when defeated.

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Cool story.

Not sure how or why you think it takes away from what I originally posted...

Like a typical conservative, you ignore facts and throw out insults when defeated.

For starters this was a private, non-government example. So the term liberal is an insult now?

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There is a difference between getting a helping hand and a hand out.

 

I've had neither when I grew up in the 2nd ward in the 80's.    I managed to avoid the gangs and dealers, yet here I am I have four kids, one in college and married, another just started Premed, another taking college courses in high school.  To top it off, We're looking for a home in the 250k range with a substantial downpayment because I also got lucky in the stock market (Thank you PCYC!) because in america, when you bust your ass, you will get rewarded. 

 

 

Welfare is supposed to be there when you are down to help yo up.  It's not a lifestyle for you to be dependent on.

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These anecdotes are interesting, and no doubt contain home truths, but ...

 

When 42% of the native population, 54% of the legal immigrant population, and 70% of the "undocumented" population of Texas must rely on some form of government assistance, and this population growth is, we're told, essential to keep the economic engine up and running, and this status quo is commendable, even, somewhat paradoxically, a sort of libertarian paradise in action, per Forbes magazine -- well, we're all welfare queens, are we not?

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These anecdotes are interesting, and no doubt contain home truths, but ...

When 42% of the native population, 54% of the legal immigrant population, and 70% of the "undocumented" population of Texas must rely on some form of government assistance, and this population growth is, we're told, essential to keep the economic engine up and running, and this status quo is commendable, even, somewhat paradoxically, a sort of libertarian paradise in action, per Forbes magazine -- well, we're all welfare queens, are we not?

i'd ask you to cite your source on the 70% undocumented, but since they're undocumented I'm wondering if there is any documentation to support it.

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