Megachurches

[sevfiv]

money?

this is a digression of a thread about lakewood church and how it might affect its area (traffic mainly) that i started, so i figured i'd open this door since it doesn't belong in the aforementioned topic.

here we can discuss how it may affect our city in other ways (sociologically, religiously, etc).

and don't forget about second baptist on woodway - another big dollar church...

[Casual Observer]

There are quite a few "mega" churches here in Houston.

Lakewood

First Baptist

Second Baptist #1

Second Baptist #2

Grace

There are more, but I'm not that religious so I don't really keep up with them. Here lately, I've been too busy keeping my eye on another kind of "church" thats been popping up more and more.

[sevfiv]

i have seen protests at second baptist on woodway by other religious groups, and LOTS of security there (seems some there have the ability to REALLY piss people off!).

and go figure - a topic on churches in "holy places" was off-topic hehe

[MidtownCoog]

You can also add Sagemont Church (aka Sagemont Baptist) to that list.

Seems like going non-denom is where the real money is to be made.

I think the people who attend mega churches mean well, but I worry about the people at the top bringing in all the money.

When I think of 2nd, I think of Bert Keller. That's the district that voted the drunk little driving councilman into office time after time.

I truly admire the small churches, especially the ones where the preacher lives in a house close by in the community.

There is a serious problem when the preacher lives in Green Tee on the golf course. Not that being a preacher means you should be poor, but at a certain point you really have to wonder where the true motivation is.

But this is America! If it feels good, just do it, because there are enough dummies to support that country club life style!

[Casual Observer]

and go figure - a topic on churches in "holy places" was off-topic  hehe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sensative people make me sick.

I agree with the sentiment about small churches. I grew up in a small church and always felt like there was more oversight.

I went to the Easter service Lakewood held at Minute Maid park at my wife's request this year. Eerie is how I would describe it. Thousands of sheeple there that day.. Thousands of non-decision makers.

[kjb434]

I grew up Catholic, and even with the size of the Catholic church many of them have the feeling of the small town church.

In then end I really don't care, as long as they don't put it into my face and try to force me to change or don't start going off on how I should give money, I'm fine.

I left one catholic to go to another one growing up because one priest started talking about money.

[pineda]

Two "mega-churches" out in the Spring/Klein/Woodlands area:

Champion Forest Baptist Church

Fellowship of the Woodlands

I've driven past both, they're immense structures, to be sure. Folks I know who attend Fellowship of the Woodlands say that it compares favorably to the sort of sermons given by Joel Osteen at Lakewood. I've heard that the pastor at Champion Forest retired and that the search committee is out looking for a new one to lead their large flock. When people talk about Fellowship of the Woodlands, in particular, they say that one of the best things about it is the programs set up for the youth at the church, complete with sports programs and Christian rock group concerts and get-togethers just about every night of the week. Something to appeal to every age group. That's something that's lacking from some traditional churches where the elderly seem to outnumber the youth, never a good sign for a church of any kind because the growth becomes stagnant. The message of Fellowship of the Woodlands or Lakewood may seem "church-lite" to some, but if their approach brings in people who would typically find themselves otherwise occupied on Sunday mornings, then maybe they're doing something right.

[RedScare]

I was downtown on Easter Sunday also, but not inside. I kinda got the creeps just watching everyone head over there. It just didn't seem right going to church at a baseball stadium...although the Pope had Mass at a couple when he came on his US tour.

A survey is done on religion in the world every so often. One of the last ones was conducted not too long after Sept 11. What they found is that Europe has a higher percentage of atheists...but that the religous were very devout in their religion. In the US, they found a huge percentage of people who said they were religous...but they found it to be an extremely shallow belief. In other words, plenty of people say it, but not too many walk the walk.

It occurred to me that this shallowness of belief is a big part of why I turned my back on religion. Why believe if you you only believe when it's convenient? And how do you expect to convert me if you are only part time in your belief. This new over commercialization of faith has done nothing to make me doubt my non-belief.

[pineda]

Another "mega-church" in the Woodlands area:

The Woodlands United Methodist Church

This one is on Lake Woodlands Drive, I believe. Correct if I'm wrong, Bach. It has a giant dome on top that at one time had a bright copper finish to it, looking a lot like a giant gold dome amongst the treetops. It has since weathered to a verdigris patina that is more in line with the aesthetics of the surroundings. Anyway, the music program at this church is supposed to be one of its' main draws. I've heard they put on phenomenal Christmas programs there, both adults and childrens choruses.

[Casual Observer]

I left one catholic to go to another one growing up because one priest started talking about money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you do when they do the annual :attempting to spell homosexual as most religious types say it: "homma-sex-ules" sermon?

[pineda]

I have heard that there is a very large Catholic Charismatic Center here in the Houston area, but I've never been to it. Has anyone here been, and where is it?

[editor]

I have heard that there is a very large Catholic Charismatic Center here in the Houston area, but I've never been to it. Has anyone here been, and where is it?

I've seen it coming into downtown from Galveston. It's on the left side in an area that seems to be mostly furniture warehouses. There's a big red sign at night, but I've never noticed it during the day.

When I was in college I dated a girl whose mother was Charasmatic. Not my cup of tea.

[editor]

What do you do when they do the annual :attempting to spell homosexual as most religious types say it: "homma-sex-ules"  sermon?

I've never heard a sermon on homosexuality in any church I've been in. What kind of church do you go to? Or is it just some sterotype you've cooked up in your head?

[editor]

A survey is done on religion in the world every so often.  One of the last ones was conducted not too long after Sept 11.  What they found is that Europe has a higher percentage of atheists...but that the religous were very devout in their religion.  In the US, they found a huge percentage of people who said they were religous...but they found it to be an extremely shallow belief.  In other words, plenty of people say it, but not too many walk the walk.

A friend of mine who lives in Austria explained this to me. It's not that the Americans are more shallow, it's that they have to try harder. In America to belong to a church or a religion you usually have to participate and work at it. In many European countries you are automatically part of a religion because there is no separation of church and state like in the U.S.

In his case (again, Austria) he says hardly anyone goes to church because they feel like they've already done their duty by paying their church taxes. Believe it or not, a certain amount of their income is collected by their version of the I.R.S. and given to the Roman Catholic Church. Can you imagine if something like that happened here? People would be up in arms. I suspect something similar happens with tax money in England, considering there is a Church of England, of which the Queen is the head.

[editor]

Sensative people make me sick.

I agree with the sentiment about small churches. I grew up in a small church and always felt like there was more oversight.

I went to the Easter service Lakewood held at Minute Maid park at my wife's request this year. Eerie is how I would describe it. Thousands of sheeple there that day.. Thousands of non-decision makers.

So... you're sensitive to sensitive people? How do you live with yourself?

Also, I know you're trying to make a point/be insulting by calling parishoners "sheeple," but I don't think it has the effect you intend. Remember that many Christian religions are based on the notion that the faithful are a flock tended by Jesus. The shepherd/flock metaphor is very common in organized religion, and is something usually seen by those people as a good thing.

[Talbot]

I already said what i thought about the church in the other Lakewood thread, but I think when churches start getting to this magnitude is when you usually start hearing about them on the news about money fraud. Just my thoughts.

[HOUCAJUN]

I was downtown on Easter Sunday also, but not inside.  I kinda got the creeps just watching everyone head over there.  It just didn't seem right going to church at a baseball stadium...although the Pope had Mass at a couple when he came on his US tour.

A survey is done on religion in the world every so often.  One of the last ones was conducted not too long after Sept 11.  What they found is that Europe has a higher percentage of atheists...but that the religous were very devout in their religion.  In the US, they found a huge percentage of people who said they were religous...but they found it to be an extremely shallow belief.  In other words, plenty of people say it, but not too many walk the walk.

It occurred to me that this shallowness of belief is a big part of why I turned my back on religion.  Why believe if you you only believe when it's convenient?  And how do you expect to convert me if you are only part time in your belief.  This new over commercialization of faith has done nothing to make me doubt my non-belief.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all you don't have to be those people. you can be that Chrisian that isn't hypocritical.You shouldn't live your life according to what you see other people do. i was always taught to do what's right even if you have to stand alone.God is the ultimate judge and it's that personal relationship with him you will be judged for. second, it is not the preacher's job to convert you. It is his job to present the gospel.You make the choice to believe.third, i don't understand the problem with mega churches. These churches were small churches at one time. Am i right? I've asked this question before and i've never gotten a response....so here we go again. what is a church supposed to do when it's membership increases? what? i went to a church with only ten pews. do you think the lakewood congregation could fit in that? It's ignorance.In closing, God blesses you for your obediance and he blesses you in every area in your life. Yes, even money. the most important thing is to find a church that you like. Don't give up.

[HOUCAJUN]

I already said what i thought about the church in the other Lakewood thread, but I think when churches start getting to this magnitude is when you usually start hearing about them on the news about money fraud. Just my thoughts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately, there are small churches that has this same thing going on.People stop with the hangups of big churches. It's insane.

[InnerLoopOnly]

It's a better story when there are problems at a big church. You can go back to the Swaggart and Baker situations for an example. However improprieties happen at small churches too. There are always cases of pastors getting into improper relationships, or money that turns up missing. That is just human nature. Bad things will always happen everywhere. If you are trying to have a relationship with God, don't use other people's failings as a reason to stay away from church. Focus on your own development.

[HOUCAJUN]

It's a better story when there are problems at a big church.  You can go back to the Swaggart and Baker situations for an example.  However improprieties happen at small churches too.  There are always cases of pastors getting into improper relationships, or money that turns up missing.  That is just human nature.  Bad things will always happen everywhere.  If you are trying to have a relationship with God, don't use other people's failings as a reason to stay away from church.  Focus on your own development.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the point iam trying to make.

[Casual Observer]

So... you're sensitive to sensitive people?  How do you live with yourself?

Also, I know you're trying to make a point/be insulting by calling parishoners "sheeple," but I don't think it has the effect you intend.  Remember that many Christian religions are based on the notion that the faithful are a flock tended by Jesus.  The shepherd/flock metaphor is very common in organized religion, and is something usually seen by those people as a good thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm tired of people who whine about their feelings getting hurt. That's what I mean by being sick of sensitive people. It gets old hearing people all day long at work, on the news, and in public wanting to blame anyone but themselves for anything wrong in life. There's no responsibility left in the world. Somehow in one generation we lost it.

Stupid children of the "baby-boomer" generation..

Oh, and I call people "sheeple" because like sheep, people today just follow the herd, and when the wolf comes along they just wait to be eaten - metaphorically speaking. My statement really had nothing to do with church.

[RedScare]

First of all you don't have to be those people. you can be that Chrisian that isn't hypocritical.You shouldn't live your life according to what you see other people do. i was always taught to do what's right even if you have to stand alone.God is the ultimate judge and it's that personal relationship with him you will be judged for. second, it is not the preacher's job to convert you. It is his job to present the gospel.You make the choice to believe.third, i don't understand the problem with mega churches. These churches were small churches at one time. Am i right? I've asked this question before and i've never gotten a response....so here we go again. what is a church supposed to do when it's membership increases? what? i went to a church with only ten pews. do you think the lakewood congregation could fit in that? It's ignorance.In closing, God blesses you for your obediance and he blesses you in every area in your life. Yes, even money. the most important thing is to find a church that you like. Don't give up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are correct, in that I do not have to be those people. I too, was taught to follow the Golden Rule. To this day, my mom is a very devout Catholic. Not Charismatic, not outspoken, just a very decent Christian. She, and Catholicism, is the root of my upbringing. But the fact that I try to do right by others does not prove a God. I have many reasons for my non-beliefs, but I have to admit that the in-your-face brand of Christianity was uncomfortable to me and caused me to examine it further.

The short version of my conclusion is that these hypocrites in the pulpit are the ones trying to prove God's existence. I find no other proof of such, other than "faith" that he exists. Given that faith is based on hypocrites, I found it faulty. It seemed the perfect scam. "Trust me". Throughout history, religion has been used as a way to gain control over an unruly people. It certainly has proved useful. But, in the final analysis, it logically seemed to be a valuable peace keeping tool, not proof of existence of a God, at least in the Christian sense.

Now, whether there is a higher being, that is a different subject, one that I have only considered in passing.

This is my opinion, one that I have arrived at after much thought. It is not meant to denigrate or convert those who believe. I may be wrong, but it is my opinion. I appreciate the other views expressed on this thread.

[MidtownCoog]

what is a church supposed to do when it's membership increases?

Just like when a business grows, it can get in trouble. Manged growth is important, especially when the church morphs from church to business. That's when you bring business people in the run the "business".

Last night Lakewood said if Jesus were here today, he'd be flying the world in a jet preaching the good word instead of riding a donkey. I actually see him touring in a RV or taking the bus.

My main concern is when your preacher morphs from preacher to celebrity, selling books at Sam's Club, world wide satellite hookups, etc. That's just not my brand of religion, but to each his own.

We don't want to end up like Eurpoe with declining populations and general apathy towards religion.

[RedScare]

"Last night Lakewood said if Jesus were here today, he'd be flying the world in a jet preaching the good word instead of riding a donkey. I actually see him touring in a RV or taking the bus."

I think he'd be sleeping in the back of his Subaru Outback.

[pineda]

We don't want to end up like Eurpoe with declining populations and general apathy towards religion.

Oh well, there's always Scientology....

There is a beautiful Mormon temple located at Cypresswood and Champions Forest Drive. It fits in well with the surrounding mansions across from Raveneaux Country Club. I understand that after the building was completed, the public was invited in and given a tour for about a month. After that, the door was closed to the general public and now only true believers can get past the guard at the gate. The opposite of welcoming in the great unwashed maybe, but they seem to be doing well with their approach.

"Last night Lakewood said if Jesus were here today, he'd be flying the world in a jet preaching the good word

...like the late Pope John Paul...

[kjb434]

Casual Observer,

I never heard that kind of speech at any Catholic I've been too.

There stance is quite clear anyway. Why would they have to talk about it more.

Any in Houston and Dallas each have a Catholic church with the largest Gay attendance. I have to give Dallas the edge because they have the larger one. Houston actually has a catholic gay volleyball league. Who knew.

I don't go to a physical church anymore. It don't mean I don't have faith or don't believe in christianity. The physical church and the spiritual church are two separate entities. A physical church is all about the community and closeness. The spiritual side is something they all have a in common to bind them. I don't need there community side so I don't attend church.

[pineda]

story about Lakewood in today's Chronicle

[sevfiv]

story about Lakewood in today's Chronicle

thanks for the posting of the article!

"Osteen believes may one day attract about 100,000 worshippers each weekend"

holy crapcakes!!!!!! that would be frightening!

and $95 million dollars...whew!

[HeightsGuy]

I don't have specific pro/con views of Lakewood, but everything I've heard says the message preached there is as much personal empowerment as it is religion, and that as far as megachurches go it's much less "over-the-top". Probably why it resonates with so many people.

What I did notice in Sunday's Chron article was the blurb that they will be expecting 100,000+ per weekend in the future. That's a lot of people. I've lived in the area before, and 16,000 people going to a game could tie-up that portion of the freeway by itself. What's it going to be like when 16,000 are leaving one service, and 16,000 more are trying to get into the next???

[RedScare]

I suppose that could be described as a traffic "Armageddon"?