Permanent homeland military ops

[crunchtastic]

....... the intended result of one of the articles in the 2007 Defense Authorization Act has come home to roost. Literally.

Beginning next week a combat brigade from the 3rd infantry has returned from the desert and will de deployed to American soil. They're on a one year tour but the command will be permanent.

Read down into the article past the 'helping the nation' during national disasters and terroritst attacks, to the part about crowd control and extensive non-lethal training and ops.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_homeland_090708w/

For those who may have forgotten, or never knew, in the aftermath of Katrinna, the executive gave itself authority to over overturn the longstanding Posse Comtitatus Act by changing the terms under which the President can invoke the Insurrection Act.

The short form is that the 2007 law enables the president (via a phrase which neglects to define other 'conditions' ) to deploy troops at home, for basically any reason at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122_(2006)

Why am I not surprised that we're not seeing this story under the bailout and the bank failure headlines?

[TheNiche]

Why am I not surprised that we're not seeing this story under the bailout and the bank failure headlines?

Because nobody cares.

[crunchtastic]

Because nobody cares.

clearly.

The flow of cheap credit is far more important than elected officials with no limits on their authority to deploy Humvees down your street as if this were Baghdad.

[TheNiche]

clearly.

The flow of cheap credit is far more important than elected officials with no limits on their authority to deploy Humvees down your street as if this were Baghdad.

Seriously, nobody cares.

[sevfiv]

Um, haha:

The brigade will not change its name, but the force will be known for the next year as a CBRNE Consequence Management Response Force, or CCMRF (pronounced

[editor]

So... what exactly is the downside to this that the conspiracy theorists are worried about? Are American troops going to go door-to-door and force people to work in salt mines? If I'm supposed to get worked up about this I would like to know why.

FWIW, the United States is one of the few countries I've been to where there haven't been soldiers patrolling the streets in areas that are soft targets for terrorists, even before 9/11. I think Paris was where they were the most visible, mingling with the tourists outside the Louvre.

I'm usually the first one who chirps up and says, "We're America, we don't do things like other countries." But I'm still not sure what the problem is yet.

[sevfiv]

I think the downside is that some folks just don't trust our military/government as it stands, so having an increased presence isn't something of comfort.

[editor]

I think the downside is that some folks just don't trust our military/government as it stands, so having an increased presence isn't something of comfort.

The line above about the potential for Humvees to start rolling down my street seems more than a little alarmist and grasping for straws. The U.S. Army doesn't have enough Humvees to patrol Baghdad, let alone every American street.

I think it's good for the citizenry to keep an eye on the military, but I don't see the point is trying to create a false sense of alarm. The only ones that benefits is the conspiracy theory industry.

[ricco67]

Amen, Ed.

Was talking to someone who compared the curfew as a "police state" and "Martial Law".

I had to gently remind her of the differences between the three and the comment was, "Well, no politician should have such power."

The conversation/debate lasted for well over 30 minutes, but she wouldn't budge on her position. I left and, in parting said, "let me know if your tin foil gets fitted properly."

People are so quick to look for conspiracies where there aren't. Geez.

[sevfiv]

I'll agree that there are alarmist and knee-jerk reactions, but also these are seated in the past actions of our government/military.

[TheNiche]

I'll agree that there are alarmist and knee-jerk reactions, but also these are seated in the past actions of our government/military.

The 3rd Amendment isn't a very memorable one, in large part because it has no history of flagrant violations. I think you'd have to go back pretty much to Reconstruction to find a good example of a military occupation of an American city, much less a violation of protected rights resulting from that. It's not that the military hasn't violated rights (for instance the Japanese camps during WW2), but that they can do it one way or another, with or without an occupying force.

Personally, I really want to see an armed military presence around our ship channel area and airports...even in our major business districts. I think that that much is only prudent. ...and certainly it makes more sense than permanently stationing troops in Europe.

[ricco67]

Fact of the matter is that those days are in the past; anytime the government is doing anything sneaky it is going to be leaked.

Some of the biggest conspiracies out there are total BS by the fact that it is human nature to talk. If a (relatively) few people can't keep their mouth shut about Abu Gharab, what makes you think the amount of people it would take for the JFK assassination, NASA, WWII, and 9/11 wouldn't be singing like canaries now?

[memebag]

Fact of the matter is that those days are in the past; anytime the government is doing anything sneaky it is going to be leaked.

What do you base that belief on? How can we ever know if all of the sneaky stuff has been leaked?

Some of the biggest conspiracies out there are total BS by the fact that it is human nature to talk. If a (relatively) few people can't keep their mouth shut about Abu Gharab, what makes you think the amount of people it would take for the JFK assassination, NASA, WWII, and 9/11 wouldn't be singing like canaries now?

You don't need to believe in any conspiracies to want to limit the government's use of military against its own people.

[TheNiche]

You don't need to believe in any conspiracies to want to limit the government's use of military against its own people.

I'm on board with that. They should be helping our own people. All the more reason to bring more of them home where they can patronize our own economy rather than Europe's, and also to utilize them for domestic defense.

[ricco67]

What do you base that belief on? How can we ever know if all of the sneaky stuff has been leaked?

You don't need to believe in any conspiracies to want to limit the government's use of military against its own people.

All of the conspiracies that I listed have pretty much been debunked with logical explainations. In light of today's technologies, I was convinced that there was no JFK Mob/government hit.

And how do I base my belief? The inability of anyone in this country to be able to maintain a proper secret on anything that involves the public in any way, shape, or form. There has been instances over the past couple of years in which people blab on stuff they SHOULD keep their mouths shut on.

I don't believe in conspiracies at all, particularly when there is NO government's use of military against it's own people. If you believe that is the case, state your facts and any previous incidents. It's easy to make general statements.

[memebag]

I'm on board with that. They should be helping our own people. All the more reason to bring more of them home where they can patronize our own economy rather than Europe's, and also to utilize them for domestic defense.

Uh, this is a combat brigade. You know, the kind that shoot people, not the kind that help people.

All of the conspiracies that I listed have pretty much been debunked with logical explainations. In light of today's technologies, I was convinced that there was no JFK Mob/government hit.

Who's claiming otherwise?

And how do I base my belief? The inability of anyone in this country to be able to maintain a proper secret on anything that involves the public in any way, shape, or form. There has been instances over the past couple of years in which people blab on stuff they SHOULD keep their mouths shut on.

But there have been instances where people didn't blab for years, and there could be instances where no one has yet blabbed. What makes you think there aren't?

I don't believe in conspiracies at all, particularly when there is NO government's use of military against it's own people. If you believe that is the case, state your facts and any previous incidents. It's easy to make general statements.

Previous incidents of conspiracies? There are too many to number. Are you saying that humans are incapable of conspiring? I don't follow.

[N Judah]

Even if it turns out to be mostly harmless, I still find security culture distasteful.

Maybe they're planning ahead for another Great Depression. It's no secret that the modern American is more violent and psychopathic than Americans of the 1930s.

[crunchtastic]

Forget I mentioned it. Obviously, anyone who happens to notice the systematic erosion of consitutional law is a tinfoil hatter.

[ricco67]

Who's claiming otherwise?

But there have been instances where people didn't blab for years, and there could be instances where no one has yet blabbed. What makes you think there aren't?

Previous incidents of conspiracies? There are too many to number. Are you saying that humans are incapable of conspiring? I don't follow.

I feel lazy so I'm not going to break up the quote:

Yes, they are combat brigades, but I'm sure they will not set up howitzers in the streets. Would you perhaps feel better if they were Military Police? Believe it or not,they are a combat unit as well. Perhaps you should offer a suggestion on which portion of the military would be appropriate in a riot/looting/emergency situation. C'mon, this is your chance to shine for a future VP candidate slot.

there were/are many that claim that there were Multiple Shooters of JFK. I'm sure you're old enough to at least know about the shooting and the countless investigations/speculations that revolved around that. I think Oliver Stone's (who I initially Believed) movie did the country an injustice by making the movie like he did.

True, there ARE instances in which people haven't blabbed for years, but we're talking military operations in combat. We're currently discussing the government against the people. there IS a difference. Having known several navy seals in my youth, I couldn't get one to even hint at the stuff he's done. Believe me, I tried in various states of sobriety.

Yes, there are WAAAY too many conspiracies that are out there, but some of them are so out there as to border on the idiocy.

But you also have to remember, I'm referring to conspiracies involving The Military AND United States Citizens.

[TheNiche]

Yes, they are combat brigades, but I'm sure they will not set up howitzers in the streets. Would you perhaps feel better if they were Military Police? Believe it or not,they are a combat unit as well.

Actually, MPs are "Combat Support". And the military's social workers and accountants are "Combat Service Support". All should be feared, of course, because they're trained with guns and are associated with the word "combat", which obviously means that they're knuckle-dragging baby killers.

[memebag]

Perhaps you should offer a suggestion on which portion of the military would be appropriate in a riot/looting/emergency situation.

National guard, as always?

Yes, there are WAAAY too many conspiracies that are out there, but some of them are so out there as to border on the idiocy.

But you also have to remember, I'm referring to conspiracies involving The Military AND United States Citizens.

Why? What do conspiracies have to do with US military being deployed to US soil?

[editor]

And how do I base my belief? The inability of anyone in this country to be able to maintain a proper secret on anything that involves the public in any way, shape, or form. There has been instances over the past couple of years in which people blab on stuff they SHOULD keep their mouths shut on.

Heck, even Deep Throat revealed himself. There are no secrets anymore.

Whether we like it or not, much of our society's groupthink comes from the entertainment industry (Hollywood in particular.) As we all know, Hollywood writers haven't been up to snuff lately (witness all the re-makes of old movies and books and the lack of any new creative pieces) and the shorthand of the last couple of decades has gone like this:

Writer #1: "I'm almost done with this movie/TV show/play, but I've got this plot hole large enough to drive a Mack truck through."

Writer #2: "When in doubt, blame it on a government conspiracy."

Writer #1: "Oooh... Good idea! That's much easier than earning my money!"

I'm youngish, so as far as I can tell it started with Twin Peaks and was exacerbated by the X-Files, then it snowballed into pretty much every poorly done movie or TV show.

As much as the average American likes to deny it, the average American is influenced by the media. If he wasn't, there wouldn't be ads. For more proof, look at how certain groups of people from different parts of the country all act the same way. It's not like it used to be when regionalisms reigned (Valley Girls or Jersey Boys or Downeasters). Now certain groups of black kids in North Carolina wear the same fashions and talk the same as certain groups of black kids in Los Angeles. Certain groups of gay people in New York speak with the same lisp as certain groups of gay people in Arizona. Since these people have never met and don't socialize, the common carrier is the media.

Back on point -- The entertainment industry's laziness has convinced thousands (millions?) of Americans that the gubmint is out to get them, and for some reason these people can't get it through their minds that they simply aren't that interesting. As I said to one person I know with this mindset, "You don't live in a Will Smith movie. You live in a trailer in the woods."

Actually, MPs are "Combat Support". And the military's social workers and accountants are "Combat Service Support". All should be feared, of course, because they're trained with guns and are associated with the word "combat", which obviously means that they're knuckle-dragging baby killers.

For the humor impaired, that was The Niche channeling the student body at Dallas Baptist University.

[RedScare]

Forget I mentioned it. Obviously, anyone who happens to notice the systematic erosion of consitutional law is a tinfoil hatter.

Please do not read the silence of some of us as apathy to this situation. It is just that I am speechless that some of our posters would so blithely give up their Constitution. I realize that they give it up every day, but I am still stunned when I read it.

[TheNiche]

Please do not read the silence of some of us as apathy to this situation. It is just that I am speechless that some of our posters would so blithely give up their Constitution. I realize that they give it up every day, but I am still stunned when I read it.

What is unconstitutional, here?

[N Judah]

Please do not read the silence of some of us as apathy to this situation. It is just that I am speechless that some of our posters would so blithely give up their Constitution. I realize that they give it up every day, but I am still stunned when I read it.

There are a lot of people concerned with these things. However, these things are the natural consequence of things that have been going on for quite some time now. It is probably too late to do anything about it.

The people in charge have decided that they want to maintain their status by any means necessary and have codified it into law. I would prefer that another group had a shot at running this place, but...

It is not George W Bush or the military you need to worry about. Most distasteful are the people who implicitly, instinctively side with anybody they think has any kind of authority or power (because they think that by doing so, they will somehow get something). I think there are more of these people than ever.

[editor]

It is not George W Bush or the military you need to worry about. Most distasteful are the people who implicitly, instinctively side with anybody they think has any kind of authority or power (because they think that by doing so, they will somehow get something). I think there are more of these people than ever.

Is it me? You mean me, don't you? You must be talking about me. You're talking about me, aren't you?

[KinkaidAlum]

Forget I mentioned it. Obviously, anyone who happens to notice the systematic erosion of consitutional law is a tinfoil hatter.

I am glad you mentioned it, Crunch.

I hadn't heard this ANYWHERE. That's what frightens me the most. I've had lawyer friends here in Boston up in arms about the fine print in the Patriot Act and the expansion of executive branch powers, but this is certainly something that should concern us all.

History has a scary way of repeating itself...

[TheNiche]

History has a scary way of repeating itself...

I'm still not really clear, but what's the scary part?

[KinkaidAlum]

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[N Judah]

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

For anyone not familiar, the website is a pseudo-parody of the notorious neocon "Project for a New American Century."

In regards to these new ops, I cannot say I like them. In Europe it might be tolerated if only because their police force (and their military) are so much different than ours. Our cops are widely acknowledged to be more trigger-happy and aggressive than their military. The logical conclusion of having our military do "crowd control" here is civilian slaughter en masse. If there was ever any real intention of using "nonlethal ops" for crowd control, the cops would have already had such capabilities and it would not have to fall to the military.