City Expected To Postpone Vote On Red-light Camera

[ricco67]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/m...politan/2948001

Dec. 15, 2004, 1:13AM

City expected to postpone vote on red-light cameras

Plan tweaked as council and residents voice their concerns

By JOE STINEBAKER and LUCAS WALL

Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

Mayor Bill White's plan to use cameras to monitor red-light violations stalled Tuesday as opponents and supporters debated the proposal for more than an hour in a City Council session, all but ensuring today's scheduled vote on the controversial measure will be delayed.

White has touted the proposal as a way to improve traffic enforcement without overtaxing Houston police.

The administration wants to hire a company to mount cameras at 50 or more of the city's most dangerous intersections.

The cameras would be triggered by cars in, or entering, the intersection after the traffic signal turned red. The cameras would snap a photo of the car and its license plate, and the owner of the car would receive a copy of the photo and a civil citation for $75 within 10 days.

Unlike a criminal charge issued by the police for running a red light

[GovernorAggie]

The critics aren't far off in the claim that places want to have red-light cameras for income. I think San Diego had to take theirs down because of this. We had these cameras in Charlotte and they worked pretty well--and they also provided a pretty penny, and the fine was only $50 instead of Houston's $75.

Houston might follow Charlotte's lead in another area, too--speed cameras. Top the speed limit, and look for a ticket to be mailed to you.

[westguy]

I thought the problem with speed cameras was that they don't really work. I heard that a place in California used radar on one street to set the traffic signal up ahead of the driver. If a driver was speeding, the signal would change to red, and the they would be caught running a red light. However, I think that's a dangerous way to enforce speeding regulations.

My problem with speed traps is that the speed limits are mostly arbitrary. People have little respect for them because they are invariably the same on every street and a bit too low in most places.

[ssullivan]

So what if one of the city's motivations for these cameras is revenue? The city is in a financial bind and if this helps get us out of it, then fine. I'm all for it, especially if it helps with the red light runner problem. I've traveled extensively and driven in almost every major city in this country. Nowhere else have I witnessed red light runners with the regularity I see here. Hardly a day goes by that I don't see someone speed through an intersection well after the light has turned red in his or her direction. Several times I've come very close to being hit and seriously injured, if not killed, by one of these impatient jerks. Most of the people complaining about this ordinance are probably the habitual red light runners who would be getting caught. The way I feel about it, put cameras on every traffic signal in the city. After some of these people get a couple of tickets, maybe they'll actually slow down to stop when a light is yellow or has just turned red. Nobody's rights are being infringed upon here. Nobody has a right to break the law without suffering the consequences of doing so.

[MidtownCoog]

This city can't even keep the red lights in sync or support a lof of our existing infrastructure.

Now we want to increase the burden?

[Subdude]

I'm not convinced that traffic-light running is so out-of-control here as to justify the expense. What happens in cases where the light is malfunctioning, and you run it because it never turns green? (confession: this happened to me the other night).

Now if they found a way to use the cameras to ticket people who won't use turn signals, then I'd be all for it!

[dbigtex56]

I am overwhelmingly in favor of issuing tickets based on traffic cameras.

A camera, unlike a police officer, is impartial. It does not discriminate based on how expensive the car may be, or the ethnicity or gender of the driver. It's an extremely accurate device - more so than a human observer.

It's a simple matter to prevent 'gouging' by the company who installs and maintains the cameras, and collects the fines: just be sure there's a hefty fine for every camera which has been shown to malfuntion in the company's favor (say, $10,000 per incident). This would provide an incentive for the company to stay honest.

What kills me is that I suspect a lot of people who are so vehemently opposed to red light cameras are the same ones who support zero tolerance, lock-'em-up policies in other areas of law enforcement. Funny how law and order types will suddenly change their tune when it's their crimes being prosecuted.

Anyone who suspects that the city is doing this to raise revenue should be happy. If the idiots who run red lights are willing to pay fines and help balance the budget, perhaps it will prevent a tax hike for the rest of us. If you don't want to pay the fine, then simply start acting like a civilized human being.

I think that's what the opponants fear the most.

[Lowbrow]

I'm all for it. Could they maybe make a system that could ticket people that dont use blinkers? That happens to be my biggest pet peave.

Every state seems to run different times on their lights. When I first moved out of state for my masters I remember slowing down for a yellow light that was pretty far ahead of me and coming to a full stop in front of the yellow a good couple seconds before it turned red. The guys behind me were honking ... and I just had to realize that this wasn't texas and things were going to run at a different speed. Took me about a month to get the timing down pat. Old habits die hard. I never did get used to the mini-bottles used by bartenders though. (extra points to whomever knows what state I went to school in)

[MidtownCoog]

Citizens don't even know the details of this proposal, but many are already in favor of it?

Lets not jump to conclusions. Mayor White's traffic light initiative is not even complete, and now this?

Proper planning prevents piss poor performance.

[Guest danax]

Citizens don't even know the details of this proposal, but many are already in favor of it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't even know when technically one is running a red light. Is it halfway across? Will we need football refs doing instant replays in court? I don't run red lights but it sure is a problem. I'm in the habit of hesitating before going on a green to avoid getting " T-boned". Drivers seem to be increasingly more in a hurry and rude too. If this plan is implemented, will the habitually law-breaking drivers now plaster their "100 Club" stickers on the front windshield?

[dbigtex56]

If this plan is implemented, will the habitually law-breaking drivers now plaster their "100 Club" stickers on the front windshield?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hehe!

Of course, 100 Club stickers never influence HPD in the performance of their duties.

Does anyone know of any other city where citizens are allowed to blatently buy and post 'protection' stickers from the police department?

[Astro]

My biggest concern with the camera idea is that I hope it offers a little flexibility to those who just barely run a red light. Many times when you are approaching an intersection and the light turns yellow the distance may be such that it is too dangerous to slam on your brakes to stop before the light and instead it's better to just go through the intersection even if it turns red before you get all the way through it.

People sitting at a red light should know better to look both ways before going into an intersection when their light turns green. I know I always do. This seems to handle most problems with red light runners. A lot of times there is a "train" of closely following vehicles running a red light. While they are annoying they aren't as dangerous as someone who speeds through a red light 3-4 seconds late and there is no one in front of them who ran it before them. That's the real problem.

Another thing, I think if traffic lights were better synchronized then a lot of drivers wouldn't be so impatient and want to run them.

[GovernorAggie]

Well, here's some answers to some questions to those who haven't experienced these things.

The ones in Charlotte only went off if you crossed the white stripe AFTER the light turned completely red. In that case, entering the intersection at a yellow light will not couse you to get a ticket. Also, these tings aren't entirely automatic--Charlotte had people working at the police to department to verify that it was an intentional running of the red light, and not some type of malfunction.

Another NC story--Greensboro, NC installed red light cameras an had one that was at the bottom of a hill. Some say they also tinkered with the timing and cause the yellows to be shorter. Needless to say more tickets were given out and there were more rear-end collisions because of people stopping suddenly at an intersection.

The cameras are not those that some have seen on the mast arms with the traffic lights. They are mounted on poles that are pointed into the intersection in order to see the cars going through it. They also don't ticket right-turns-on-red.

Concerning the speed cameras, the Charlotte actually had vans in certain spots that were mounted with the cameras, and in some cases, I think there was also a police car with the van. In addition, the city posted exactly where the speed cameras would be, and placed signs before the vans location saying the a speed camera was nearby. The speed camera van also had signage on it denoting that it is there to catch speeders.

This is a lot better to catch speeders because NC uses unmarked vehicles (Crown Vics, Tahoes, etc.) to catch speeders like it's going out of style. I haven't seen that many in Texas, but I know they exist.

[westguy]

Another thing that bothers me is the number of SUVs we have on our streets. Most of the time, I cannot see what color the light is through their vehicles. There's no way for me to know if they were just sitting there sleeping at a green light or if there's any time left for me to make it through once we start moving. My choices are either to huff it through the intersection as quickly as possible or slam on my breaks and get rearended.

The left turn arrows in this city are normally 1-2 seconds long (and I know one of the proposed interesections has a short light). This doesn't allow me much time to make a decision. If the light changes to red while I am in the interesection, it is because it went from green to red while I was moving through it. It is not because I deliberately tried to run a red light.

This also creates a problem for emergency vehicles. I see people clearing a path into the interesection during the red light while the signal didn't change for some reason. Should they be forced to sit there and block the fire truck or face getting a ticket?

[Lowbrow]

Perhaps it would be more useful for it to be a short video capture instead of a single pic for them to more efficiently weed out the false positives and for contesting issues.

[debmartin]

"Perhaps it would be more useful for it to be a short video capture instead of a single pic for them to more efficiently weed out the false positives and for contesting issues." (quote, LowBrow)

that sounds reasonable, especially in light of how many drivers are sure to appeal. can't seem to get an answer to my biggest question - what about all the city cops, sheriffs, metro police constables and other assorted types running lights? on or off duty, crusiers or private cars - will they be ticketed and will their respective municipalities contribute to the honey pot? or will it be "bidness" as usual here in the bubba-land we affectionately know as our beloved htown? seems only fair to have the good o'l boys pay their fair share, and at the rate they disregard red lights it seems our cup should be running over real soon. anyone have the answer to my question? i confess most of my valuable sources, confidantes, cronies etc are not the law and order type.

debmartin

[GovernorAggie]

yeah, speaking of policing, you can be in the city of Houston and be in what, 5 different law enforcement jurisdictions? HPD, Harris County Sheriff, METRO Police, HISD Police, and the State? Amazing.

And with the exception of HISD, I've seen people pulled over by all of these agencies on 610.

[pineda]

extra points to whomever knows what state I went to school in

Boston, Massachusetts?

[jghall00]

"Perhaps it would be more useful for it to be a short video capture instead of a single pic for them to more efficiently weed out the false positives and for contesting issues." (quote, LowBrow)

that sounds reasonable, especially in light of how many drivers are sure to appeal.  can't seem to get an answer to my biggest question - what about all the city cops, sheriffs, metro police constables and other assorted types running lights?  on or off duty, crusiers or private cars - will they be ticketed and will their respective municipalities contribute to the honey pot?  or will it be "bidness" as usual here in the bubba-land we affectionately know as our beloved htown?  seems only fair to have the good o'l boys pay their fair share, and at the rate they disregard red lights it seems our cup should be running over real soon.  anyone have the answer to my question?  i confess most of my valuable sources, confidantes, cronies etc are not the law and order type.

debmartin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with the video suggestion. My Tivo can do some serious compression. Why not videotape the intersection, then store the previous few seconds of video whenever a light is run. If it doesn't happen, the video can be overwritten.

I'm generally in favor of this, because Houston has the worst drivers I've ever seen. Traffic laws here are not heavily enforced. I drive 90+ on the freeway with impunity, knowing the chances of getting pulled over are slim to none. Drivers here block left lanes, run red lights, roll through stop signs, change lanes without signaling, block intersections...the list goes on and on. Anything the city can do to change this behaviour i'm in favor of. Hopefully any action they take will lower the accident rate, resulting in lower insurance prices. This could end up saving us money in the long run.

The producers of the world's worst drivers show should come to Houston for a few weeks. I'm sure they could get an entire season's worth of material.

[Guest danax]

I'm generally in favor of this, because Houston has the worst drivers I've ever seen.

I drive 90+ on the freeway with impunity, knowing the chances of getting pulled over are slim to none. and on.

Anything the city can do to change this behaviour i'm in favor of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.........

[Lowbrow]

Boston, Massachusetts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hehe... well you are correct in that I did go to school in Boston but I also went to school in South Carolina and that is where I was refering to. (Until recently they used those little airplane bottles to serve alcohol in bars... was a awefully stupid law... but your drinks had about 60% more kick)

[MidtownCoog]

The producers of the world's worst drivers show should come to Houston for a few weeks.

Have y'all seen Ch 2's bad driver segment. It's pretty good.

One week they showed this crazy guy I see downtown, who rides his harley with his feet in the air.