Leon Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 From a previous discussion:The numbers I provided above were calculated from data provided by the writer of an editorial arguing for greater funding towards inter-city rail in the United States.As far as I'm concerned, there are many better uses for Amtrak funding, whether among other kinds of rail, other kinds of non-rail transportation, other kinds of non-transportation projects, or perhaps even just as a return to taxpayers.Except that the Amtrak rideship is about 26 million, so the subsidy calculation is off quite a bit. Not sure about $14 Bln estimate for airline subsidies - you'd have to make sure that all the municipal borrowing for airports is accounted properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Except that the Amtrak rideship is about 26 million, so the subsidy calculation is off quite a bit. Not sure about $14 Bln estimate for airline subsidies - you'd have to make sure that all the municipal borrowing for airports is accounted properly.I'm using subsidy estimates provided in an editorial that favors further Amtrak subsidy. It's certainly not as though I'm cherry-picking the data from only friendly sources. And actually, we've debated the air subsidy issue pretty extensively on HAIF before, and I lost the argument you're trying to make. It is very difficult to find examples of airline subsidy because the vast majority of outlays made by the government are reimbursed by fees that passengers pay for.Amtrak ridership as well as passenger enplanements were sourced from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics website. Unfortunately, I accidentally cited monthly data, not annual. My mistake. Taking that into account, it's about 25,172,000 passengers per year, which comes to a $51.64 subsidy per Amtrak passenger compared to (supposedly) $18.16 per air passenger. Not quite as outrageous as my flawed earlier number...but even still, that's a pretty frickin' massive subsidy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perimeter285 Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 I wasn't trying to get into a discussion of Amtrak ridership. Amtrak as a system is a joke (except in the Northeast) and I don't think more investment in this current system is the answer. It would take enormous investment in an entirely new system, such as that in Europe, for it to work. My whole argument is that even under the current awful Amtrak system, Houston has a decrepit train station compared to most that I've seen. Many other cities, no matter how small, have seen fit to invest in their train stations under the realization that it is a number of people's first impression of the city. I must be pretty naive, though, to think Houston actually cares about first impressions considering the views from our freeways.Still, considering the money that is raised for so many causes around this city, I don't think putting together the funding for a decent train station would be so far fetched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Well, I think this particular station was never meant to be a permanent one. It just kinda' worked out that way. But overall, I think you're correct on that matter, Peri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonmacbro Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 So does Amtrak even still run to Houston? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gto250us Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 So does Amtrak even still run to Houston?Every Mon - Wed - Fri 9:30 PM westbound to LAEvery Tue - Fri - Sun at 6AM eastbound to New Orleans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gto250us Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Photo from: 20sGirl Why Does Houston's Amtrak Station Look So Bad?, Will they ever Build a better one? Here is a picture of the old Houston SP railroad station that was located at the site now occupied by the downtown Post Office. Houston's Union Station - Now Minute Maid Park The MKT (Katy) railroad station in Houston shortly before it was torn down in the 1950's. The station was located on the north bank of White Oak bayou at Main. The building in the background in the current UH downtown building which was originally the Merchants & Manufactures Building. Built in 1920's as an early version of today's mall. By the time the building opened in 1930 the country was in the depression and the owners of the building went bankrupt in 4 years and the building never really served it's original purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Many other cities, no matter how small, have seen fit to invest in their train stations under the realization that it is a number of people's first impression of the city.What is that number, though? With just one train arriving every other day, there can't be many people visiting Houston for the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gto250us Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 What is that number, though? With just one train arriving every other day, there can't be many people visiting Houston for the first time.Not many. Right now I count 17 cars in the parking lot. And I bet some of them are for Aquarium employees. An article in the NYT in 2002 said that the Sunset Limited was the most heavily subsidized route on Amtrak at $350 per passenger. That was when the line went all the way to Orlando instead of only to New Orleans. I bet the average passenger arrival is less than 12.For 2007 Houston had 13,214 boarding & Alightings. That averages out to 42 per train. Higher that I would have thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonmacbro Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Great Train Stations: Washington DC's Union Station Philadelpia's 30th Street Station: (Favorite) Los Angeles' Union Station New York's Grand Central Terminal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citykid09 Posted March 15, 2008 Author Share Posted March 15, 2008 Don't forget Houston's and America's favorite and most best rail station. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonmacbro Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 Don't forget Houston's and America's favorite and most best rail station. LOL! The architectural design, clean lines, expansive passenger area, and location leave me ... speechless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 Doesn't the Houston city logo have a train on it? I know they are probably just to keeping the train on it for historical purposes, but don't you think it would be cooler if they had a picture of the train station on it instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 You think this one's bad, Beaumont's "station" is now just a concrete slab. There was a building the one time I rode it as a kid, but that was 10-15 years ago.There was an article in the paper a few months back about the city wanting to build an intermodal facility downtown and have the trains stop there, but I haven't heard anything about it since.Sounds weird, but I guess it can't be worse than what we've got now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 I just had a HAIF-y experience. I spent a few hours sipping booze and sitting in the observation deck of a restored passenger train parked next to the Amtrak station. It's really, really ugly. Please don't ever change it. The world has enough beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchtastic Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 I just had a HAIF-y experience. I spent a few hours sipping booze and sitting in the observation deck of a restored passenger train parked next to the Amtrak station. It's really, really ugly. Please don't ever change it. The world has enough beauty.Beauty perhaps. But don't you think the world could use a little more advertising? I'm all antsy in my pantsy to think about new city logos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Beauty perhaps. But don't you think the world could use a little more advertising? I'm all antsy in my pantsy to think about new city logos!No way. Our dorky logo is the shiznizzle. We gots trains and plows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonmacbro Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 No way. Our dorky logo is the shiznizzle. We gots trains and plows. Now if we could just get a high speed commuter train to somewhere. No way. Our dorky logo is the shiznizzle. We gots trains and plows. Lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The ironic thing is they used a symbol of a train for a city that has basically abandoned the train except for the new light rail (a step in the right direction as far as I am concerned).If this was a city that embraced their history of rail transit (like San Francisco) I could see the train logo, but for Houston they should have a car or highway on the logo. Or maybe in the next 10 years some shiny new light rail train logo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 An honest logo might be a mosquito ramming its proboscis into the earth, sucking up oil and pooping out all the benefits of modern life. Fortunately, logos aren't chosen for their honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 That would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travel_n_Transport Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 >>The ironic thing is they used a symbol of a train for a city that has basically abandoned the train except for the new light rail (a step in the right direction as far as I am concerned).If this was a city that embraced their history of rail transit (like San Francisco) I could see the train logo, but for Houston they should have a car or highway on the logo. Or maybe in the next 10 years some shiny new light rail train logo!Hmm, Houston hasn't abandoned the train at all. The train on the logo was (likely) representative of the part trains played in developing Houston commercially. Even in the heyday of passenger rail (pre 1950s), the number of trains calling at Houston - via the various railroads - was minor league compared to cities like St. Louis, Memphis, K.C., Minneapolis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htownswami Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 So Amtrak may not be a component of the intermodal? It would make sense but I guess the additonal investment would be hard to get given the ridership?I would love to have an ACELA style setup here between HOU-DAL-AUS-SA..but given the emphasis on huge highways and the automobile in Tex.. I don't see it happening, although I did hear a possible rail component in Rick Perry's transcorridor plan.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gto250us Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 So Amtrak may not be a component of the intermodal? It would make sense but I guess the additonal investment would be hard to get given the ridership?I would love to have an ACELA style setup here between HOU-DAL-AUS-SA..but given the emphasis on huge highways and the automobile in Tex.. I don't see it happening, although I did hear a possible rail component in Rick Perry's transcorridor plan..A Texas Super train idea crops up about every 10-15 years. Back in the 80's the talk was to put one in that would link Houston Dallas and San Antonio. Folk trot out all these studies and plans, make press conferences and make allot of noise. Then they go away and are never heard from again.I don't think it will ever happen. Texas like to drive their cars. Hell, they wouldn't even put a train in to Katy when they planned the I-10 expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddavenport Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 ^ THANK YOU, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 The ironic thing is they used a symbol of a train for a city that has basically abandoned the train except for the new light rail (a step in the right direction as far as I am concerned).If this was a city that embraced their history of rail transit (like San Francisco) I could see the train logo, but for Houston they should have a car or highway on the logo. Or maybe in the next 10 years some shiny new light rail train logo! Houston is one of the busiest freight railroad systems in the USA with the port and the petro complex...Houston has 3 of the 5 major US railroads calling here UP, BNSF, and KCS as well as one of the largest switching railroads in the USA the PTRA which moves cars between the various railroads in the Houston area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editor Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Houston is one of the busiest freight railroad systems in the USA with the port and the petro complex...Houston has 3 of the 5 major US railroads calling here UP, BNSF, and KCS as well as one of the largest switching railroads in the USA the PTRA which moves cars between the various railroads in the Houston area Freight rail statistics (looks like they're from 2002, though) (in tons) Chicago: 223,837,000 Houston: 84,375,000 Los Angeles: 82,013,000 Detroit: 37,793,000 Dallas: 33,454,000 Baltimore: 8,537,000 And here's a pretty graphic: Rail Commodity Flows To and From Houston, 2003 I'm not sure why the DOT picked those cities for the report. It leaves out some fairly obvious choices like New York. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasVines Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 I believe very little freight tonnage actually moves into New York proper anymore most of the tracks are now passenger tracks and the ports are mainly New Jersey for shipping freight and rail freightI believe the Long Island Railroad is one of the few or perhaps the only that carries freight into the city now and even then it has to do so at night to make way for commuter rail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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