Families

[nmm]

Hi

My friend and i were discussing "Family" related topics. We were comparing family affinity in Asian culture and North American/European culture.

I had always believed that Asians/Africans stressed more importance to family then people of European cultural heritage (North Americans, South Americans, Europeans, Australians). Things like family pride, family honor, ethnic affinity, etc are closely ingrained in Asian culture. On the other hand, "Freedom of the Self" is a term id use to describe Eurocentric cultures.

An example of Asian Familial practices: arranged marriages, strict patriarchal hierarchies, children obedient to parents, pride in family genealogy, you know your fourth cousin like she was your first cousin etc......

My view of American Families: high divorce rates, frequent teenager-parent friction, lack of familial affinity in regards to cousins, aunts, uncles, disattached relationship between inlaws.

Also, when two Asians get married, two families come together. When two Europeans get married, two people decide to spend their lives together.

However my friend brings up that American/European families werent always the disfunctional and decaying institutions that they have become since WW2. Divorce rates werent always 50%-60%, and mothers wouldnt always let their daughters go out on "dates" unsupervised.

And after i saw this picture in another thread:

our conversation came back to mind.

I borrowed this picture from Mr. Barnes. ***If you wish me to remove it, i will do so.

What can you add or criticize to my understanding of Western-European family structures?

[musicman]

You've used many generalizations. I know Asians who've divorced/had affairs/had out of wedlock children, etc. Families have become more "progressive" over time, just as Asian families are becoming more progressive. It's just evolution.

As for Asians being strict, there are many others who are just as strict such as old Mexico. Over time though...things are changing.

[nmm]

Well its not a question of being 'strict' moreso the breaking down of family structures.

Why do people put their careers higher on the scale of importance over their family lives?

Why do men/women have adulterous relations without thinking about its impact on their spouse and children?

These things are increasingly found in societies where we are well fed, economically self dependent; societies which highly value material progress; where we are constantly under the influence of advertisements telling us to indulge ourselves because we work oh so hard.

[musicman]

Well its not a question of being 'strict' moreso the breaking down of family structures.

Why do people put their careers higher on the scale of importance over their family lives?

Why do men/women have adulterous relations without thinking about its impact on their spouse and children?

These things are increasingly found in societies where we are well fed, economically self dependent; societies which highly value material progress; where we are constantly under the influence of advertisements telling us to indulge ourselves because we work oh so hard.

I think you answered your own question. Just look at how television has changed over the last 20 yrs. I remember i was shocked in the mid 80's when they used the word BlTCH. Now they use it, even in daytime. I'm a Beaver Cleaver kinda guy.

[TheNiche]

Why do people put their careers higher on the scale of importance over their family lives?

Funny you ask this; I was just discussing that over dinner earlier tonight. The key is the marginal opportunity cost of time.

Poor people tend to have a lot of children because 1) the infant death rate is higher, especially in 3rd world countries, 2) access to contraceptives can be limited in many places in the world, 3) children can be put to agricultural or household work at a relatively young age, 4) out of many children, at least one will probably care for the parents when they become elderly, and 5) the woman's opportunities are limited, so raising a child has a very low opportunity cost associated with it. These were precisely the goals that motivated my mom's parents in their day.

But as income rises, a lot of these factors don't matter anymore. Healthcare and nutritious food becomes more accessible, meaning that fewer babies need be conceived because there isn't an expectation that some of them will die. Contraceptives become something that are cheap and easy to come by, so the fear of STD contraction is considerably lower and sex can be just for fun until the right person comes along; promiscuity increases. In the same sense that people with a lot of money tend to also be willing to invest a higher proportion of it than they use for consumption purposes, a child's resources will be allocated more toward education (a form of investment) than toward activities where there is immediate production (consumption). Wealthier households are able to save and invest more of their income toward retirement; as retirement becomes more secure, there is less of a need to have at least one caring kid that'll take care of the parents in old age.

The last point is the most critical, however, and ties all of these together. As a woman's earning power increases, the household must make a choice. Either her time can be spent raising kids or it can be spent with a career...one that could take care of current consumption and retirement needs. Individual households make their own choices, but the negative correlation between female earning power and number of children is surprisingly strong. There are cultural influences within U.S. datasets, especially among Hispanics, but with each successive generation, those influences diminish.

This is not a hard and fast rule, however. There is a trend among uber wealthy households (think of the Kennedys) that once so much wealth is obtained so as to create a true leisure class, the birthrate starts to increase again. After all, the cost of each additional child relative to the parents' pool of resources is practically nothing, and making babies can be fun.

[MidtownCoog]

OK, the typical Asian family is all lovey dovey.

Fine.

But look at Asians outside of the family and into their society as a whole and it's pretty creepy.

Everybody wants to be the top Foo Man Chu.

No freedom.

[nmm]

I understand Asian Society has a Plethora of Social Laws, making them a socially rigid society. However this same society can last under European Imperial rule for 200 years, and still come out with their own culture intact.

Anyways, i have more questions.

1. Is Divorce still regarded as a 'bad' thing in Euro/Western households?

2. Is it still a 'shock' when one hears about divorce occuring in the family?

3. How do your grandparents speak about the culture change in the past 70 years?

Lastly, if you could give up certain aspects of your lifestyle in-trade for a more family oriented society (instead of the current 'me'-based one) would you do so?

Example:

Would we settle for smaller incomes as one spouse stays home to raise the kids (instead of MTV doing so), while the other makes a living?

[MidtownCoog]

are you writing a term paper?

[TheNiche]

Anyways, i have more questions.

1. Is Divorce still regarded as a 'bad' thing in Euro/Western households?

2. Is it still a 'shock' when one hears about divorce occuring in the family?

3. How do your grandparents speak about the culture change in the past 70 years?

Lastly, if you could give up certain aspects of your lifestyle in-trade for a more family oriented society (instead of the current 'me'-based one) would you do so?

Example:

Would we settle for smaller incomes as one spouse stays home to raise the kids (instead of MTV doing so), while the other makes a living?

1. Yes, but it wouldn't happen if there weren't other even worse things that caused it. Divorce is about minimizing cost, not maximizing benefit.

2. Sometimes. It's not a shock when my blond bipolar cousin with the emotional intelligence of a 5-year-old gets divorced. It is when normal or otherwise happy folks break the bad news.

3. One set of grandparents rolls with the punches and adapts to changing times; these are the grandparents that weren't affected too much by the Great Depression. My other set of grandparents were desperately poor during the Depression, and the impact on their psyche can still be observed in their pack-rat mentalities. They are the poorest multi-millionaires that you'd ever lay eyes upon. They raised their family in the traditional style, used the kids as a labor force and as a retirement option, always had a garden to suppliment their store-bought food, and never allowed their three girls to be out past 8PM. My mom has stories about the Galveston County sheriffs showing up and escorting her home from dates where she was out past curfew.

4. I like my family and do wish that I could spend more time with them, but I'm also trying to acheive a level of material comfort for myself. Actions speak louder than words, but to be clear, I do wish that I could have both. I think that further on down the line, with the right woman (and/or kids), I'd be spending much less time at work and more at home with family, even if some amount of income has to be sacrificed. Odds are, though, that the kids will get daycare and public schools as their daytime activities.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I can tell you this from my stand point. And by the way I have no problem with you using the picture either.

Divorce in my fathers side of the family is almost nil. I have a second cousin that has been divorced twice, and one of my sisters and my father. That is it, that I can think of. The Barnes' stick it out till death. Strong Methodists of German/Scot descent. My paternal Great Grandfather Frederick Whitfield Barnes was married twice, because his first wife died during child birth of his fifth child, my grand father.

My Grandparents were married for over 60 years also

My Great great uncle John and his wife were married over 80 years.

My Granny was a Jahnes, second generation German immigrants. They fled what was left of Prussia, for fear that Napoleon would have them beheaded. Had they know Napoleon would fall at Waterloo they may have stuck it out and not given up their titles. Frederick Jahnes was the Duke of Wittenberg after the fall of the Holy Roman Empire. at one time. He was my great great great Grandfather. His son John Frederick Jahnes was my great great grandfather, my Uncle was H H Jahnes. John Frederick was a baby when they came to this country. The settled in Tennessee and eventually settled in the Brazos Valley near Independence in 1837, John Frederick married Eady Ann Millican. The Millican's were one of the first families of the Brazos valley, her father had one of the only ferry's that transversed the Brazos River in those days. He had 30 sections on both sides of the river. They had my great grandfather Homer Frederick Jahnes. His picture is below on his wedding day in 1880. They were married for over 70 years also. Homer died @ 103 years old and Grandmother Mary was 99. Lot's of old folks in my family.

My Uncle Harlen and Aunt Lucy married over 70 years

Now my Mother has been married five times herself, all of her sisters and one brother has been divorced. Now these are Catholics third generation Sicilian immigrants. Papa Joe Campisi, my maternal grandfather was married to my grandmother for 63 years till he died and she followed not long after. And my uncle Joe (Joe Jr.) has been married now over 50 years, but all his siblings have been divorced, mainly for infidelities. Now Papa Joe had goumadas for sure, but Gamamaw tolerated it till the end. I know Joe Jr has had a few goumadas also, but Rachael tolerates it also, "for the sake of the family". My mother screwed around on my father many times and then finally just left with a guy. Her sisters all the same, one left hers for a girl. Sp it almost seems infectious as the generations keep evolving on that side.

So I guess it's just how you were raised as to your stance on divorce. I have been married twice, my first wife was killed in a car accident by a drunk driver, it was only luck our son wasn't with her. I remarried a Lebanese girl and have 5 beautiful kids by her and she also raised my older son. We will be married till one of us dies and then we will still be married only one of us in the ground. I will never remarry if God forbid something happened to her. I feel she would do the same. I have three grown girls that are waiting for prince charming I suppose, Lindsay has had the same boyfriend since high school. Alexis and Kelli are still playing the field. I hope my children marry forever, that's what it was meant to be. My oldest son Jason is married to the Army for now. Brandon and Marcus have careers that are more important for now.

[Guest Marty]

I got a book that my Grandpa Rowland my dads mom side of the family published around 1990. The title of the book is called Rowland and Barron Family Histories. Its got a lot of old pictures. The book go's back before 1595. It feels cool when you see your own name in a book: R. Martin Parker born in Houston Texas 2-27- 1975:. i need to get me a scanner.

[nmm]

Its refreshing to see families that stick it out till death. At first look, if one was to make a judgement it would seem families here dont have any intrinsic value or any integrity.

As my mom says "Dont marry a white girl, their marriages are a joke."

Or as my guy buddies were goofing: "Poor So-and-So, it wont last."

I spent about 7 years with an old lady of German heritage. Last name: Franceskini. At this point in time my parents were unable to raise me, and somehow, some strange way they let an old American woman adopt me. She taught me everything from table manners to reading/speaking english. She also grew in me a love for knowledge and reading. She had a husband who fought in WW2, and 2 sons, 1 daughter. So i had a fairly good understanding of what 'good' American families looked like.

However her son divorced, one never married, and ive never met the daughter except in family pictures. She seemed silently upset at the way they decided to take their lives but the "freedom to do whatever you want" that is easily found in Eurocentric cultures kept her back form criticizing them.

I was just wondering why we have such a stark generation gap from the nostalgic "I Love Lucy" and "Leave it to Beaver" type families to the One-Parent "Family Matters" household to the now "The OC" and abundance of Reality TV shows featuring families like the Osbournes or The Lachey-Simpsons.

It seems like a sudden shift in a breakdown of family values; within 70-80 years.

[TheNiche]

Its refreshing to see families that stick it out till death. At first look, if one was to make a judgement it would seem families here dont have any intrinsic value or any integrity.

As my mom says "Dont marry a white girl, their marriages are a joke."

Sweeping judgements over whole populations aren't really very useful. There are always exceptions; in fact, I'd argue that individual exceptions within populations are the rule. The hard part is figuring them out on a case-by-case basis without wasting a lot of your own time.

I was just wondering why we have such a stark generation gap from the nostalgic "I Love Lucy" and "Leave it to Beaver" type families to the One-Parent "Family Matters" household to the now "The OC" and abundance of Reality TV shows featuring families like the Osbournes or The Lachey-Simpsons.

Well, to be clear, media isn't a cultural mirror. It is a business. And in order to maximize ratings and advertising revenues, producers of television shows have become increasingly adept at shocking audiences. As audiences become desensitized to the new programming, producers have to keep pushing the envelope. And while there will certainly be some morons out there that can't help but get sucked in to the idea that their lives are supposed to be like those depicted in "The OC", those people are usually easy to spot and stay away from. I don't think that they are the norm.

[TJones]

Ok, Mark, where is the "Fountain of Longevity", that your family sips from ? Are you kidding me ? 112, 106, 103, 100, 96, 95, 93 ?

[Mark F. Barnes]

Ok, Mark, where is the "Fountain of Longevity", that your family sips from ? Are you kidding me ? 112, 106, 103, 100, 96, 95, 93 ?

[Orikal]

Well, to be clear, media isn't a cultural mirror. It is a business.

Exactly. Just because 50's-era television focused on an (unrealistic) ideal of moms eveywhere vaccuuming in high heels and pearls, doesn't mean it was anywhere close to the norm. Remember, this was the time immediately following WWII, and people were in an ideallic mindset, so corporations cashed in on such.

[nmm]

Thanks for yalls replies.

Any more comments/criticisms are icing on the cake.