nmm Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Islam, America and Europe Look out, Europe, they say Jun 22nd 2006 From The Economist print edition Why so many Muslims find it easier to be American than to feel European HAVING narrowly escaped with his life from the theocrats of his native Iran, Afshin Ellian likes the relaxed, cerebral atmosphere of Leiden, the Dutch town where he now teaches law. But this 40-year-old professor is disillusioned by a Europe which he says has become too soft-minded in its dealings with Islam. It is a sign of the times, he thinks, that the country where he settled 17 years ago is about to say goodbye to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born Dutch politician who has sharply criticised the Muslim tradition in which she was raised. Having got into trouble because she once fibbed to the Dutch immigration authorities, Miss Hirsi Ali is moving to America. Some of Mr Ellian's criticisms of Europe are philosophical: it is too cynical and mercantilist a place to wage a war of ideas in defence of the Enlightenment. Some are personal: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 No Fears here. The Capitalist Infidels shall reign supreme, until The Lord sends Jesus back to destroy all believers of Allah. "Thou shall have no other "God" before me !"- The Lord. Anyway, why can't the Radical Muslim folks just get along, learn to turn the other cheek for Pete's sake. A cartoon is NOT gonna hurt Mohammed, and I am sure if he saw the cartoon that he got a good chuckle at it, saying "That looks nothing like me ?" Is Allah THAT vain ? Don't they think that if the infidels truly ARE NOT the chosen people, that Allah will take care of them himself, if he is sooooooo powerful, why not just have the faith that he can handle his own business ?Of course I am just kidding about the first part, when the final day comes, none of us are gonna be able to do a damn thing about it. The second part I do believe, I know how strong the Muslim faith is, and why they take offense to such things, but I don;t understand why they just can't say to themselves, "ok, you better look out, Allah will get you for that !" and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmm Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 I was hoping someone would make some sort of comment. Have a few questions? Discussions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How do you feel that Muslims in America are more at peace with America then the Muslims of Europe? What do you wish the nation to do with the growing population of Muslims in America? How do you view anti-Western Sentiments in the West? How do you view anti-Western Sentiments in the East? If there was a Second Attack, or if we were to invade more Islamic/Arab nations, what do you want the government to do with Muslims? -Lock them in Concentration Camps? -Deport all Immigrants, but keep the naturalised citizens? Do you feel that Islamophobia has gone overboard in America? How do you feel about the US Government having Tariq Ramadhan and Cat Stevens on the US Terrorist list? But most importantly, do you like the Crescent on the Eiffel Tower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm1fd Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 But most importantly, do you like the Crescent on the Eiffel Tower? That got me to thinking. I wonder if the practice of putting crescents on outhouse doors would offend them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmancuso Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 How do you feel that Muslims in America are more at peace with America then the Muslims of Europe? - europeans tend to be more laxed (culturally) so muslim groups can get away with being more assertive. plus the colonial baggage (such as algerians with france & morrocans with spain). americans would be all over muslim groups shouting 'death to the american infidels' in the streets like white on rice. i'm not talking about the gov't but your average joe. What do you wish the nation to do with the growing population of Muslims in America? - nothing. 98 percent of them just want to go about their daily lives like any other group. How do you view anti-Western Sentiments in the West? How do you view anti-Western Sentiments in the East? If there was a Second Attack, or if we were to invade more Islamic/Arab nations, what do you want the government to do with Muslims? -Lock them in Concentration Camps? -Deport all Immigrants, but keep the naturalised citizens? --absolutly not. watch 'under seige' however, we should keep an eye on those who fit a certain profile, young, male, transient, etc. and not shake down 70 year old black ladies at the airport. Do you feel that Islamophobia has gone overboard in America? How do you feel about the US Government having Tariq Ramadhan and Cat Stevens on the US Terrorist list? - knee jerk reaction and our generation's answer to macarthyism But most importantly, do you like the Crescent on the Eiffel Tower? -it will make the french le pissed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 1. Because the Muslims know how good they have it here, and they know what opportunities await them.2. Are you referring to the USA or the Nation of Islam, if the USA, nothing, all Muslims or people that want to convert to Islam have every right to do so, that is what is great about the constitution. If you refer to N of I, Mr. Farakhan needs to quit promoting HATE, and preach what the true religion of Islam is. All Clerics that want to base their followings and followers here, need to realize what this country was founded on, and quit preaching hate, if they want to stay in this country.3.Again, smae as number 2. if you want to stay in this country, and you don't like the Western way of civilization, take your ass back to Mecca then, and don't come back.4. I could give 2 Shiites less about what eastern hatred towards America is, if you don't like us, we don't want you here in the first place. It is just that easy, stay where you are. If they think we are so decedant and that we are sooooooo bad over here, then what is the compulsion to come here. I have no desire to go to a middle eastern country and see for myself just how it is first hand. I got a good feeling I know exactly how it is, CRAPPY ! So, I'll just suffer here and be an Infidel.5. Well, let's see, we have already "invaded" an Islamic nation, and what has happened ? Did we put the Islamic people in Camps, or anything of the like. No ! So, why would we start now ?6. As far as the crescent moon on the Tower, is that what the French Gov. would want, or is it needed to appease the Muslim people. If the Muslim is the minority, then why do you have to appease them, shouldn't democracy dictate what is done for the betterment of the people ? Do the Muslims insist that this be done to make them happy or they will take elementary children hostage and use them as bargaining chips until the Gov. says "UNCLE" or they will kill them if they don't bow to their wishes ?Ok, your turn to answer your same questions now, how do you feel about what should be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmm Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 That got me to thinking. I wonder if the practice of putting crescents on outhouse doors would offend them....Depends on who you ask. The symbol of the crescent was invented by the Ottomans. Hence, they may find it the most repulsive. You must remember that Islam and Muslims are not monolith. Arabs are only 20% of the Muslim population. 20% Arab25% African30% Central/South Asian15% East/South East Asian15% European/CaucasianThats just a mental breakdown. What might offend one, may not offend the other. In large part the Palestinan/Israeli issues really bothers the Arabs, but doesnt much hurt the Uzbekistanis. Anyway, why can't the Radical Muslim folks just get along, learn to turn the other cheek for Pete's sake. A cartoon is NOT gonna hurt Mohammed, and I am sure if he saw the cartoon that he got a good chuckle at it, saying "That looks nothing like me ?" Is Allah THAT vain ? Don't they think that if the infidels truly ARE NOT the chosen people, that Allah will take care of them himself, if he is sooooooo powerful, why not just have the faith that he can handle his own business ?Its all a matter of what you hold most dear. Its also about having something sacred. Unfortunately, Most Europeans/North Americans dont hold religion and religious symbols/institutions as sacred anymore. I suppose i shouldnt expect you to understand in relation to religion. But a good analogy would be to take away freedoms that Europeans have worked for. What would you do if overnight all your freedoms were taken away? What would you do if you didnt have the right to vote, nor was there a representative Congress or a Judicial Branch in government? Rather King Bush made al legal decisions and passed legislations. No more freedom of religion, no more right to a trial by jury, no more right to hold weapons, and you could be searched without warrant. What would you do>? Would you feel angry? Anyways, its about respect. Do you understand respect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editor Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 The New York Times... Now The Economist. I wonder who else has noticed this difference between the U.S. and Europe when it comes to Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 I suppose i shouldnt expect you to understand in relation to religion. But a good analogy would be to take away freedoms that Europeans have worked for. What would you do if overnight all your freedoms were taken away? What would you do if you didnt have the right to vote, nor was there a representative Congress or a Judicial Branch in government? Rather King Bush made al legal decisions and passed legislations. No more freedom of religion, no more right to a trial by jury, no more right to hold weapons, and you could be searched without warrant. What would you do>? Would you feel angry? Anyways, its about respect. Do you understand respect?You shouldn't assume to much nnm. My religion preaches that you love thy neighbor, to turn the other cheek , and that which does not kill you, makes you stronger, and that forgiveness for wrong doing is the path to righteousness. An eye for an eye does come into play, but that is left open for interpretation. "Respect", what do you know of this, the way you call your elected leader "King" is THAT respecting him ? The Muslims have oppressed women's rights since the beginning of time and you call this "respect". Your mother gave you life, yet if you were back in her homeland, how do think she would be treated, or "respected" how would you feel about that ? Your origins are Middleeastern, correct ? Muslims dont "respect" any other religion but Islam, they acknowledge that there are others who have a different faith, but what are they called nnm, INFIDELS! Yes, very "respectful". This country is based on Democracy and FREEDOM of religion, whereas if you practice any other religion than Islam, or you convert to Christianity,in the Middleeast you will most likely be beheaded. That is very "respectful", now isn't it. So, what "freedoms" are they offering over in the middleeast if you are not a man ? I am not sure, but do women have the right to vote in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, you know, the HUBs of the Arabic Muslim ? How "respectful" is it when you take elementary school children hostage to further your agenda for Muslims? Tell us more about how to "respect" the Muslim religion and how "respectful" the Muslims are to Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmm Posted June 27, 2006 Author Share Posted June 27, 2006 TJones you are so malinformed, and perhaps even bigoted in your approach, that i dont even know where to start. So ill come back later. Actually i much appreciate your honest and forthcoming attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 TJones you are so malinformed, and perhaps even bigoted in your approach, that i dont even know where to start. So ill come back later. Actually i much appreciate your honest and forthcoming attitude. Show me ONE example where I am "bigoted" in my post ? Again you say "perhaps", there you go assuming again. I would think that you having no answers to any of my questions is the reason you don't know where to start. Why not just answer Yes or No to the questions I posed to you about "respect". That is an easy place to start, and you won't have to dodge the issue, just answer Yes or No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmm Posted June 28, 2006 Author Share Posted June 28, 2006 Show me ONE example where I am "bigoted" in my post ? Again you say "perhaps", there you go assuming again. I would think that you having no answers to any of my questions is the reason you don't know where to start. Why not just answer Yes or No to the questions I posed to you about "respect". That is an easy place to start, and you won't have to dodge the issue, just answer Yes or No.I dont know if your being racist, or if your ignorant. Thats honestly what im pondering. Racist is a synonym for a bigot. Most questions arent answered "yes" or "no". If i asked you when you moved to Houston, would you answer "yes" or "no"? I have answers, but i am busy at the moment. It takes time to understand anothers' point of view. You need me to show you where you displayed bigotry? Reread your post. The reason i used 'perhaps' was in hope that you would latch onto that word, realize you may have said something racist, and therefore try to correct it. I was trying to give you a hint. Muslims have oppressed Women since the beginning of time - is not true. This is actually fairly recent; coming in the past 200 years out of a 1400 year Islamic History. I am here to discuss, not argue. But i do appreciate your honesty, and once im done with my work, i will answer you more in depth. I was hoping i could get others to ask a few questions as well. My intent for posting these articles is to get brutally honest public opinions out of the HAIFers. Questions and Comments that they hold in their hearts to spill out so i can better understand what the rest of Houston thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 When asking if someting is "respectful" or not the answer is clearly yes or no. I am not asking what time were you calling Pres. Bush, "King" Bush. As far as your accusation that I am being a "racist" or a "bigot", I will have to have you point it out to me as to where, in my post, feel free to quote me.SO, that being said,let's start with an easy question for you. Are the words you use to describe President Bush, calling him "King" Bush, "respectful" ? Yes or No."Muslims have oppressed Women since the beginning of time - is not true. This is actually fairly recent; coming in the past 200 years out of a 1400 year Islamic History."- nmm I apologize for my time frame being off, but regardless of time, is it "respectful" to oppress women ? Yes or No . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston1stWordOnTheMoon Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 I dont know if your being racist, or if your ignorant. Thats honestly what im pondering.I didnt think it would be long before the "racism" comment showed up....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmm Posted June 28, 2006 Author Share Posted June 28, 2006 "Respect", what do you know of this, the way you call your elected leader "King" is THAT respecting him ? The Muslims have oppressed women's rights since the beginning of time and you call this "respect". Your mother gave you life, yet if you were back in her homeland, how do think she would be treated, or "respected" how would you feel about that ? Your origins are Middleeastern, correct ? Muslims dont "respect" any other religion but Islam, they acknowledge that there are others who have a different faith, but what are they called nnm, INFIDELS! Yes, very "respectful". This country is based on Democracy and FREEDOM of religion, whereas if you practice any other religion than Islam, or you convert to Christianity,in the Middleeast you will most likely be beheaded. That is very "respectful", now isn't it. So, what "freedoms" are they offering over in the middleeast if you are not a man ? I am not sure, but do women have the right to vote in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, you know, the HUBs of the Arabic Muslim ? How "respectful" is it when you take elementary school children hostage to further your agenda for Muslims? Tell us more about how to "respect" the Muslim religion and how "respectful" the Muslims are to Christianity.1. Good God man. I was just setting up a scenario, no need to take 'KING Bush' so personally. I merely used King Bush as an example, rather then King Bubba Joe or King Wilson or another arbitrary name, so youd know i was referring to the establishment of a dictatorship. The jist of what i was trying to get you to experience was the feeling that others are disrespecting you, by the way they undervalue and illtreat what is dear to you. And i believe Sir, by the anger you have shown at my "KING Bush" comment, you now have somewhat a better understanding of that anger one experiences when what he holds all his pride in is disrespected. 2. The Muslims have not disrespected womens' rights since the beginning of time. Like i said, the breakdown of religion or the religious theoracy during the 1700s/1800s led to an increase in religious ignorance. When religion wasnt in the picture anymore, people began to practice it alot less, and held onto made up cultural values. For example, when the Brisith arrived in India, they destroyed the remaining city states of Hibdu?buddhist Rajas and Muslim Sultans. When these city-states fell, so did their religious educational systems. When the religious educational institutions fell, the common man beganto interpret the religioun based on what he saw fit. This is where the practice of subjugation of women came into play. Yes you are right, that women are subjugated in many Muslim homes, but i doubt it has anything to do with the Religion - Islam. If you want to know, many rights women have today, Islam gave them 1400 years ago. How would you confirm this information? Ask a professor at the Womens-Studies College at the University of Houston, or Rice University. Some of those rights included:-right to own property-keeping the last name after marriage-signing business contracts-voting (but back then they didnt have 'voting' the way we have it today - they had the Bayah or 'pledge of allegiance')The problem of women being raped, is a problem anywhere in the world. For example, it is known many women are raped during their time spent in American educational institutions. Also, we know that women are sexually molested in the US Army. Imagine that, the Army of the United States of America sexually molests its female cadets. Does this have anything to do with what America is founded on? NO. Its just a problem of a lack of morality in society. Or a lack of discipline in the Army. It is true that you would be either beheaded or condemned to prison for a life sentence, or many other things if you formally convert out of Islam into another religion. But to understand why that is so, you have to understand the way Islamic Society works. We have no nation, we have no pride, we have no tribes, we have no national anthem, we have nothing = except Islam. And to leave Islam is the same as treason to the 'state'. In America, during the Communist Scare, people were being condemnned to prison for treason under whom? Senator McCarthy. In the United States, it was treason to be Communist. In Islamic Nations it is treason to leave Islam. Thats the way the system works. Yes, they do have freedom of religon. You can see that because a number of Jews and Christians lived well during the Islamic reign in the Middle East (as you can still meet Christians in Iraq, Palestine, Jordan, etc). Hindus and Buddhists lived during the rule of the Mughals, and Pagans lived during the Islamic rule of West Africa. What they dont have is the freedom for Muslims to leave their religion. For everyone else, they dont mind, for Muslims to leave Islam is treason. Secondly, while i understand how one would feel if the Russians came in and bombed their villages, raped their mothers and wives and daughters, and brutally murdered their neighbors and fathers, i dont think taking hostage a group of school children is the right thing to do. So i agree with you. Just the same way, i understand the hatred one must feel towards Israel after Israel shells Palestinian children, encroaches on Palestinian lands, bulldozes Palestinan homes randomly (and American protestors), all the while receiving American government aid in the form of billions of US Dollars and war supplies. I still dont think that its 'okay' to blow yourself up in a crowded nightclub in downtown Tel Aviv. However, who am i to speak? Like i said, ive never experienced the agonizing hopelessness that these people have been through.The people who commit these acts are already so ____ed up in the head, that i dont know if i can understand the way they think. Im sure some Palestinian children grow up thinking its okay to gun someone down if they dont do as you say. Theyre born in this environment, and the environment you are raised in majorly effects your thought processes. Lastly, if you think somehow that Muslims have been the most violent criminals of all time, im going to ask you to show me proof. To think that Muslims have been intolerant of Christians/Jews is a lie concocted by bigots and racists, or extremelly stupid people who talk before they think. Show me when Muslims have been brutual to Christians under a Islamic Government? Ill show you when Jews have run towards Muslim lands for protection against Christians. Ill even show you Christians dont have any regrets about killing their own 'brothers' in religion. They start war with just about anyone, including the same people who have tread in the land of Jesus (pbuh) for centuries. I didnt think it would be long before the "racism" comment showed up.......Ah yes, to show an example of when you were acting like a bigot. I didnt know if you mentioned Muslims treating their women 'wrong' out of ignorance or with intentions to start a flame war due to personal jingoism. I think it has something to do with ignorance, so im thinking i should take that comment back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 I didnt think it would be long before the "racism" comment showed up....... Especially since race has nothing to do with this topic. Go figure, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Christians under a Islamic Government? Ill show you when Jews have run towards Muslim lands for protection against Christians. Ill even show you how Christians dont have any regrets about killing their own 'brothers' in religion. They start war with just about anyone, including the same people who have tread in the land of Jesus (pbuh) for centuries.OK, Here you go.http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=13371How about another ?http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/30/...in1456246.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 I didnt know if you mentioned Muslims treating their women 'wrong' out of ignorance or with intentions to start a flame war due to personal jingoism. I think it has something to do with ignorance, so im thinking i should take that comment back. There is no ignorance on my behalf, I know full well that women for the most part in any Islamic ruled country have little or no rights at all. As where women hear enjoy the same FULL legal rights of men, and even in some cases have MORE rights than men. I would throw the ignorant ball back in your court, because apparently your faith has blinded you to see just how women are treated when following Allah ! We were talking about respect, and most leaders of the Muslim faith tend to frown on women being their "equals". Is THAT "respectful" ? Nmm, you need to write a few more papers and read a few more books, and get a little more REAL WORLD experience before trying to tell others of their "ignorance". I understand though, I was 19 once, and at 19 I thought I knew it all also. btw, Thanks for the laugh, your take about my "anger" towards your use of "King Bush" is what I found to be the funniest part, I wasn't angry in the least bit. It was the fact that you spout off about "respect" and in the same breath you are disrespecting others, I was merely pointing that out, and you still haven't answered the question. Hilarious ! "Just the same way, i understand the hatred one must feel towards Israel after Israel shells Palestinian children, encroaches on Palestinian lands, bulldozes Palestinan homes randomly (and American protestors), all the while receiving American government aid in the form of billions of US Dollars and war supplies. I still dont think that its 'okay' to blow yourself up in a crowded nightclub in downtown Tel Aviv. However, who am i to speak? Like i said, ive never experienced the agonizing hopelessness that these people have been through."-nmm Or, how Palestians with bombs strapped to their chests run into crowded markets or busses, or restaurants, to self-destruct, all the while recieving money from Arab countries to help their fight. It becomes the "chicken or the egg theory", which came first ? Its been going on so long, nobody can rememeber, but both blame each other. You may understand it, but there are alot of people who have lived it and still don't understand it, and it would seem that you only understand the Muslim side of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmm Posted June 29, 2006 Author Share Posted June 29, 2006 OK, Here you go.http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=13371 How about another ? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/30/...in1456246.shtml Oh nice. Good job. Look, i can do that too. Okay. Just off the top of my head. -Spanish Inquistion -Crusades (1): Attack on Jerusalem -Witch Trials Now if youd learn to seperate the political from the religious, youd be closer then where you are now. The fact of the matter is that there are Christians and Jews living in the Middle East. Theyve always been living in the Middle East. They still exist today as well. You drive yourself to Baghdad, Bethlehem, Damascus, Cairo or Jerusalem, and you see them. If we were to wipe out all others besides Muslims, theyd be dead. But they arent dead. Sure, their are politics involved, and yes, sometimes their are religious riots(people sadly die), but only because religion is such a strong part of society. Its the ____nig Middle East, cradle to 3 Abrahamic Relgions and site of 6-7 Holy Cities. What do you expect them to argue about? They killed Nick Berg, i know. They killed a multitude of others as well, i understand. But your going to have to ask yourself if this is religiously motivated or politically motivated. because if the Muslims were ordered to exterminate the Jews/Christians/Hindus/Pagans, all of Western Africa, North Africa, East Africa, the Levant, Arabian Peninsula, South Asia, Central Asia, and East Asia would have been 100% Muslim. But they arent. They have been living there since the B.C.'s. So whats your argument now? I mean, notable Jews and Christians from Iraqi ex-deputy Tariq Aziz who is Christian to Moses Maimonides, a Jew (for some Author of Jewish Law) lived and prospered among Muslims. Moses spent time in Muslim Andalusia and was the court-Physician for Salahuddin (led the Muslim forces against the Christians to retake Jerusalem). Then there is Edward Said (Palestinian Christian) and some more. So . . . ? I mean, it just sounds goofy when you say random things. Yes there are politically motivated attacks, and yes religion is used as a pretext for these attacks (or atleats a cover for them) but Islam has never sanctioned the random murder of peaceful non-Muslims. btw - i think the word 'infidel' is derived from the catholic church. we just use the word kaafir = non-muslim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmm Posted June 29, 2006 Author Share Posted June 29, 2006 There is no ignorance on my behalf, I know full well that women for the most part in any Islamic ruled country have little or no rights at all. As where women hear enjoy the same FULL legal rights of men, and even in some cases have MORE rights than men. I would throw the ignorant ball back in your court, because apparently your faith has blinded you to see just how women are treated when following Allah ! btw, Thanks for the laugh, your take about my "anger" towards your use of "King Bush" is what I found to be the funniest part, I wasn't angry in the least bit. It was the fact that you spout off about "respect" and in the same breath you are disrespecting others, I was merely pointing that out, and you still haven't answered the question. Hilarious ! 1. Have you ever talked to a Muslim woman before? I mean really? Because you seem to know alot about Muslim women in Islam. I mean, if you have the knowledge to abrogate my 20 year life experiences living as a Muslim in both Muslim and Non-Muslim societies, you must know alot. Or your just talking rubbish to win an argument. If your here to 'win' an argument, then ill cede and let you 'win'. If your here to understand and discuss, then well share information together and come to our own conclusions. The fact of the matter is, Islam is much more dynamic then "We kill apostates" and "we oppress our women" and any other bullshit statements you can come up with. YES, the general rule is we kill apostates, but even then apostates, atheists and agnostics go free because we give them the benefit of the doubt. Its not a 5 second job, *whack* and your done. If there are any lawyers on HAIF, they know even the most obvious court cases are put under the most intense scrutiny: analyzing, reanalayzing, exhausting all other possible outcomes, to reach a final conclusion. I mean weve had people deemed non-Muslim like Avicenna and Ibn Rushd and Ibn Farabi and Rhazes in our societies and among our midsts. Free to spread their ideas. Because the law allows for that. I dont like discussing meagre issues like "do you all kill apostates" because its very technical and dynamic. However, if you really desire womens rights heres something from University of Georgia. http://www.uga.edu/islam/Islamwomen.html Heres American Women embracing Islam - id love to hear your theories as to why - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-...4042919-2658410 Here is something about Stereotypes http://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=13459 Christian Science Monitor http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1227/p01s04-woeu.html Maine Article on Muslim Women http://magic-city-news.com/article_2694.shtml Latino Women Converting to Islam http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9352969/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6060400957.html What im interested in knowing is what your take on these articles are. Especially since you know so much about Islam, Women's Rights, and so on and so forth. Especially because Islam gave women the right to divorce, own businesses, demand a dowry from prospective husbands, property, etc in 634 CE while women were liable to be sold by their husbands in 1800s England. Look up English Law regarding women during the 1700s - early 1900s. The decadence of Muslims today doesnt mean you can blame Islam. Especially since most of us follow non-Islamic ways of life. Only 15% pray five times a day. Go figure. Lastly, my favorite part, ahem. Women have ruled many modern day nations as well the City-States of the past. Off the top of my head: Razia Sultana of Dehli, Salahuddins Wife was a 'Ameerah' of either Aleppo or some other important city state. In Modern day: Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan and then there is Bangladesh's ruler ( i forget the name-you can look it up). So while you research that, well cross our fingers and hope Hillary Clinton for 2008. Other then that, im happy to make you laugh. Or, how Palestians with bombs strapped to their chests run into crowded markets or busses, or restaurants, to self-destruct, all the while recieving money from Arab countries to help their fight. It becomes the "chicken or the egg theory", which came first ? Its been going on so long, nobody can rememeber, but both blame each other. You may understand it, but there are alot of people who have lived it and still don't understand it, and it would seem that you only understand the Muslim side of it. Or how Israelis drop shells on Palestinans. Or how Ultra-Orthodox Jews attack random Palestinan children going to school and Christian tourists (and then get away with it under the biased judicial system). Or how America calls for 'Peace in the Middle East' while supporting Israel with Ameican made weapons and tanks. But i suppose your right, its a complex emotional issue. But i think we can see the politics arent quite as hazy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988 "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969 "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum" "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston1stWordOnTheMoon Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Amazing how people can live in a free society with access to news and information from multiple sources can choose to believe nothing but the worst about the host country and believe information from backward jackassed societies as a trueism. Amazing, simply freakin amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Quite frankly, that's the absolute BEAUTY of living in a free society.I'd imagine the world to be a pretty boring and dangerous place without divergent thought. Heck, we might still think the world was flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Those are all very nice quotes, like Moonman said, it is nice to live in a society where you can actually access THAT kind of information, because it takes a FREE society to do so. Thanks for validating my argument nmm. How many 19 yr. old women in Arabic countries, where Islam reigns, do you think could be privledged enough to see all these wonderful articles you have read and quoted ?Here are a few quotes you may have missed."You are a weak nation now and your country has been taken from you by the synagogue of Satan. They own Congress. That's why the Congress ain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcole Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Definition of "fool":One who argues with "fools". You would be better served TJones to just read and not reply. I am sure you have better things to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Definition of "fool":One who argues with "fools". You would be better served TJones to just read and not reply. I am sure you have better things to do. <------dead on ! You are right, well, I used to have better things to do ! It is foolish of me to think you can talk any sense into someone who is so easily led around by the nose with the promise of "virgins". What was I thinking ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeightsGuy Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Especially since race has nothing to do with this topic. Go figure, huh? I don't know, I think race has everything to do with this topic. For those out there who think Europe welcomes everyone with open arms, you need to rub your eyes a bit. For all of America's past and current race problems, we are a far more open society when it comes to allowing other people to integrate fully into our culture. Case in point for this topic, show me Houston's Muslim slum. Ethnic neighboorhoods in American cities are a thing of the past, more for tourists and festivals than anything else. The same cannot be said of many European "enlightened" cities. American cities have ghettos for sure, but more often than not our ghettos are socio-economic, not race-based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 I don't know, I think race has everything to do with this topic. For those out there who think Europe welcomes everyone with open arms, you need to rub your eyes a bit. For all of America's past and current race problems, we are a far more open society when it comes to allowing other people to integrate fully into our culture. Case in point for this topic, show me Houston's Muslim slum. Ethnic neighboorhoods in American cities are a thing of the past, more for tourists and festivals than anything else. The same cannot be said of many European "enlightened" cities. American cities have ghettos for sure, but more often than not our ghettos are socio-economic, not race-based. Instead of it being about race, isn't it really more about ethnicicity and culture. I think we get lazy in our thinking and throw out "race" as a cover-all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Heights, nmm, starts a topic about respect, I call him on it, and he calls me a bigot. Where is the logic in that ? Read my first post and see if you can tell me where I made any such bigoted remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Read my first post and see if you can tell me where I made any such bigoted remarks. You didn't. I just think you're spinning your wheels with this guy because he obviously has his ears closed in regards to anyone else's view(s). BTW TJ, my Superman is better than yours!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJones Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 BTW TJ, my Superman is better than yours!!! If YOU say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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