E-85, Ethanol, Flexfuel

[Jeebus]

I've heard whispers about "E-85 " Ethanol fuel for gas powered automobiles for a while, but just this week both 60 Minutes and Dateline did big stories on the reality of using ethanol to replace our current foreign oil supply.

I personally think that it's a great idea. It will keep the money here in the states, in our pockets, the farmers pockets, and out of the hands of the middle east. E-85 is also better for the enviroment, cheaper to make, and considered a renewable form of energy.

I'm just curious of the board's thoughts about E-85. Does anyone have inside knowledge about the fuel, or whether it could be coming to Houston anytime soon? The Dateline report mentioned that Walmart is about to retro-fit all it's "Murphy" brand gas stations to offer an E-85 pump.

The only con or fear that I've heard is that the oil manufacturers have enough room to lower gas prices enough to drive E-85 out of business. And with big oil, I know they are capable of anything.

[RedScare]

That sure will drive up the cost of my grits...and I do like my grits.

[Jeebus]

Not nessessarily. There is new technology now that can distill grass, orange peels, and leftover paper pulp from paper mills.

[RedScare]

Not nessessarily. There is new technology now that can distill grass, orange peels, and leftover paper pulp from paper mills.

I'm sorry, Jeebus, but grits made from leftover paper pulp is going to taste like ____. I don't care HOW ecological it is.

[kjb434]

Brazillian companies really want to sell ethanol to the US and are, but the a lobby of farmers for ethanol convinced many congressman in both parties to slap a $0.54 tarrif per gallon of Brazillian ethanol. Since we cannot produce enough for ourselves, we'll have to pay for this product.

I'm put free markets ahead of any political party. This tarrif is objectionable to free markets. And both political parties are guilty.

This is a right or left issue. It's an economics one. The Brazillians have been making this stuff for a while, very good at it, and make it cheaper than the US. The tarrif keep the price artificially high so that local ethanol producers can compete and beat these prices.

This is the foreign steel issue all over again.

If congress wouldn't stick its hands into the energy markets and put ridiculous regulations in place, we would have much cheaper gas than we do now. You can thank your elected representatives for the $3 gas and not the oil companies.

[Jeebus]

I'm sorry, Jeebus, but grits made from leftover paper pulp is going to taste like ____. I don't care HOW ecological it is.

Red, you've lost me with your talk about grits.

[TJones]

Not nessessarily. There is new technology now that can distill grass, orange peels, and leftover paper pulp from paper mills.

Wasn't that the "Mr.Fusion" on the back of the DeLorean that I saw a few years ago ? I knew this technology had been around for awhile, but WOW !

[RedScare]

Sorry, Jeebs. Grits are made from corn.

A quick ramp-up in ethanol production will cause a huge demand for corn, causing food corn prices to skyrocket. We import somewhere in the neighborhood of 14 million barrels of oil daily. It would take a lot of corn (or switchgrass, etc.) to make up the difference. Given the ever-growing bargaining power of Russia, Iran, Venezuela, and other oil producing countries, anything that helps reduce foreign oil consumption helps, though.

Earth to US Government. What about conservation?

[REALaw]

The Dateline report mentioned that Walmart is about to retro-fit all it's "Murphy" brand gas stations to offer an E-85 pump.

Seriously?!?!?

[editor]

While E-85 may be a good step in the right direction, comparing America's corn-based E-85 to Brazil's sugarcane-based ethanol isn't exactly apples to apples.

Because of differences in the plants, corn makes a lot less ethanol a lot less efficiently than sugarcane. I think I read somewhere that it takes 8 tons of corn to make the same amount of ethanol as one ton of sugarcane.

The big reason is, of course, that sugarcane has more sugar in it than corn.

I think this is an opportunity for farmers along the gulf coast to form a coop or something and start raising cane. Do like the farmers in the 60 Minutes piece did and build your own ethanol distillery to process the stuff. Sure, the foreign ethanol tax isn't fair, but I don't see it going away anytime soon. Time for some visionaries to take advantage of the situation and put the "sugar" back in "Sugar Land."

[Jeebus]

I think this is an opportunity for farmers along the gulf coast to form a coop or something and start raising cane. Do like the farmers in the 60 Minutes piece did and build your own ethanol distillery to process the stuff. Sure, the foreign ethanol tax isn't fair, but I don't see it going away anytime soon. Time for some visionaries to take advantage of the situation and put the "sugar" back in "Sugar Land."

I agree with type of investment completely. On Dateline, one of the founders of Sun computers was interviewed. He's poured millions of his own money to research E-85 & beyond. He was the one who stated that E-85 could be made by building distilleries next orange juice plants, paper mills, corn mills, rice mills, sugar-cane mills, etc. These E-85 production plants would be using all waste product, before even tapping into actual corn & sugar-cane crops.

I don't have any hard data, but I know that each year farmers are paid millions in subsidies for crops not even used. I have no doubt that if corn was the next cash crop, there would be no shortage of rice, soybean, & even tobacco farmers switching crops. As for sugar-cane farmers, I know from experience they have surpluses every year.

So Red, yes I know grits are made from corn. What I want you to know is that I don't think your grits wil get that expensive.

I'm excited to finally see a real alternative to oil. I'm sick of political discussions that always end up back at the root of the problem: foreign oil. My only worry is that even if we were able to make enough E-85 to drop our foreign dependacy, would we still have enough domestic for pretroleum based products (plastics)?

Does anyone own a flexfuel vehicle already, and has anyone seen an E-85 pump yet in the Houston area?

[KinkaidAlum]

Brazil's situation is pretty amazing. They've been heading towards a 100% sugarcane fuel since the oil crunch of the 1970s.

Just shows what a dedicated approach can accomplish.

Of course, in Brazil, you don't see MONSTER trucks, pimped out Escalades, and Hummers either. Most folks who drive, drive smaller, more efficient cars.

[Jeebus]

Well, when fuel gets to 5-6 dollars a gallon, I'm sure we'll see the Escalades & Hummers disappear, much the same way the large gas-guzzlers did in the 70's. I just don't think the public has actually be frightened into the reality of another potential fuel shortage.

I'd shed no tears over the end of XL-SUV's.

[TAK]

what i don't understand is how a country that really only has one resource - agriculture - doesn't embrace the opportunity to use that resource to its benefit...

i do understand the fight against it by those who make lots of money by cooperating with the ME and helping to keep us dependent on oil.

[cwrm4]

It takes cleared land to grow sugar, corn, and anything else that can be distilled into ethanol.

Brazil may be headed towards 100% ethanol, but it will come at the expense of the rain forests.

So, somewhat ironically, a shift towards biomass fuels will actually accelerate the destruction of the world's remaining forests. (So drill the ANWR first! )

[Jeebus]

Brazil is at 100% domestic oil & ethanol dependence. Why would they need to cut down the remaining rain forests if they are already where they need to be?

[cwrm4]

Brazil is at 100% domestic oil & ethanol dependence. Why would they need to cut down the remaining rain forests if they are already where they need to be?

1. They're not at 100% ethanol-only yet

2. The Brazilians pop out a lot of new babies every day

3. Sugar cane is the most efficient way to produce ethanol. Thus, they could soon start exporting ethanol.

My point though was more about the (possibly unforeseen) longer term consequences of the whole word shifting to biofuels.

[editor]

I agree with type of investment completely. On Dateline, one of the founders of Sun computers was interviewed. He's poured millions of his own money to research E-85 & beyond. He was the one who stated that E-85 could be made by building distilleries next orange juice plants, paper mills, corn mills, rice mills, sugar-cane mills, etc. These E-85 production plants would be using all waste product, before even tapping into actual corn & sugar-cane crops.

What luck. Doesn't Houston have an orange juice factory? I seem to recall the reason Minute Maid is headquartered in Houston is because the oranges come up in cargo ships from Brazil and they're squeezed here.

Does anyone own a flexfuel vehicle already, and has anyone seen an E-85 pump yet in the Houston area?

There are five E-85 equipped gas stations in Texas. The nearest one is at Johnson Space Center. I don't know if it's public.

[jm1fd]

There are five E-85 equipped gas stations in Texas. The nearest one is at Johnson Space Center. I don't know if it's public.

That page says the JSC pump is private....

[Jeebus]

1. They're not at 100% ethanol-only yet

2. The Brazilians pop out a lot of new babies every day

3. Sugar cane is the most efficient way to produce ethanol. Thus, they could soon start exporting ethanol.

My point though was more about the (possibly unforeseen) longer term consequences of the whole word shifting to biofuels.

But clearly, once you're made to explain your point, there's not half as much scare tactic as you originally made it out to be. So what if the entire world switches to Ethanol? I'm sure there is more that enough land-space to grow what is needed. As for the rainforests being torn down - at least another O2 producing crop would be planted in its place.

[J.A.S.O.N.]

Well, I don't know about private consumption, but Galveston is getting a 15 million dollar biodiesel plant (backed by Chevron) for commercial vehicals in the Houston/Galveston area.

Galveston plant on biodiesel forefront

By Laura Elder

The Daily News

Published May 15, 2006

Me oh bio: Will the island be a major player in the burgeoning renewable fuels industry? San Ramon, Calif.-based Chevron Corp. thinks it will.

Subsidiary Chevron Technology Ventures is offering more details about its investment in Galveston Bay Biodiesel. Galveston Bay Biodiesel plans to build a $15 million facility on Industrial Road across from the Pelican Island Bridge.

Chevron, which has a 22 percent interest in the firm, said the project would be one of the first large-scale U.S. biodiesel plants.

The plant will produce biodiesel from soybeans and other renewable feedstocks.

The island venture plans to sell fuel to marine, commercial, trucking and industrial markets in Galveston and the Houston area.

The plant will initially produce 20 million gallons of biodiesel a year. That amount could increase to 100 million gallons a year. Construction of the plant, which will employ about 12 people, should be complete by the end of this year.

http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.l...f6fa36f64e3573b

[Jeebus]

Sounds like a good start - thanks for the info Jason. I think they say "commercial" only because that's where the only vehicles that can use E-85 currently are. I would bet in 3 to 5 years that flexfuel cars will be utilizing this same fuel though.

[jm1fd]

I think they say "commercial" only because that's where the only vehicles that can use E-85 currently are.

LOL LOL. Read it again. They're talking about a biodiesel plant. Any diesel can burn biodiesel with no mods.

Flex fuel vehicles are not relegated to the realm of commerce....many people have cars capable of it and don't even know it.

[Jeebus]

OH! It says diesel. I don't know what I was thinking. That's what I get for posting at four in the morning. Sorry about that.

[wendyps]

I'm not convinced that this will fix anything. Apparently in order to make a gallon of ethanol, it requires more than a gallon of gas... I'm not opposed to it, but this isn't the magic pill that the politicians are making it out to be.

[Jeebus]

I'm not convinced that this will fix anything. Apparently in order to make a gallon of ethanol, it requires more than a gallon of gas... I'm not apposed to it, but this isn't the magic pill that the politicians are making it out to be.

Where did you get this fact?

[wendyps]

Where did you get this fact?

there was an NPR story on it a while back...how all the tractors and equiptment and stuff eat so much gasoline...I'll see if I can find it...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5184874

so, I googled "Ethanol efficiency" and came up with a ton of hits...basically, I am seeing very conflicting opinions. Some seem to suggest that ethanol USED to be very inefficient, but they have made strides in the last 5 years and now it is more efficient...that would make sense to me.

regardless...I think that saying that 100% ethanol would eliminate dependancy on gasoline is a mis-statement. However, brining the $$ back into the US and into farmers pockets works for me, as long as the ratio is a positive one.

[Jeebus]

I'd think the most effective use of ethanol distilleries would be those that are housed next to existing produce mills & plants. This way, there is no cost in shipping the waste products from the produce mills & plants to the distillery.

[jm1fd]

I'm not convinced that this will fix anything. Apparently in order to make a gallon of ethanol, it requires more than a gallon of gas... I'm not apposed to it, but this isn't the magic pill that the politicians are making it out to be.

It depends on the feedstock. Sugarcane, unquestionably, will yield more energy than is consumed to make it. Corn, is net energy positive, but not as positive as sugarcane. I'm sure there are some crops out there that are net energy negative.

[Jeebus]

I feel like a broken record, but efficiency will continue to increase as more types of agriculture are found to be able to make high grade ethanol.