Dallas And Houston Vs. The World

[arche_757]

Today I was in Brazos books - and was gazing through a book about New Museums, sometimes I feel compelled to look through them just to see what there is about anything from Texas. Nothing mentioned Houston or the MFAH Beck Building - although it seems to be well represented in several Museums Books - but Dallas and Fort Worth were in there. The Nasher Sculpture Center, and of course the Modern.

While I dont think it was intended as a negative phrase the Nasher Sculputure Center --- was "nestled amongst the sprawl that is Dallas" I guess it would be hard to argue against that. Dallas does have sprawl, so does Houston, City-X has sprawl as well. What Im getting at is that as much as we Texans (Dallasites and Houstonians) bicker amongst ourselves about which city is more of a city, the rest of the world -- especially architectural seems to think of us as little more than a sprawl and suv infested cow culture.

We constantly argue for state bragging rights yet it makes little difference since most of the rest of the world views us all as backward and cities hanging on the edge of reason. Its high time that both cities - put aside differences and extole the virtues of living in both as great and good, and praise each other for what has been accomplished in the two. On another note Austin always seems to get the Artistic heart of Texas and also Intelectual heart of Texas --- while not criticising Austin, both Dallas and Houston should be ashamed that while basically 5 times larger they are both overlooked when it comes to the arts and schooling. Im pretty sure Dallas has more students in college than Austin and certainly Houston does. We also have multiple performing arts venues and groups that Austin doesnt have, granted live "rock/country/folk" music isnt nearly as big here that shouldnt give Austin the right to proclaim or be proclaimed the Artistic Center of Texas.

While Houston and Dallas have fought for the "bigger, better, best" title amongst each other for years Austin, San Antonio and other cities around our region have advertised themselves as the place to be. Yet all the back fighting (even though its not necessarily evedent among the politicians) neither Houston or Dallas are viewed as the place to see, or be seen in Texas. Shame, since between the 11.5 million people who live in between the 2 cities you would think that somewhere somehow we would realize our consistantly negative image hasnt exactly endeared us to the rest of the world.

[KimberlySayWhat]

We constantly argue for state bragging rights yet it makes little difference since most of the rest of the world views us all as backward and cities hanging on the edge of reason.

Exactly. I was watching one of the local news broadcasts the other day and they were doing a segment about Dallas' Texas State fair and the people they interviewed were some of the homeliest-looking, country hick, Walmart-shopping, plain Janes you could imagine. One was a rather ratty looking man with no teeth. I just laughed and thought about this forum.

[MidtownCoog]

You really can't worry about what the "world" thinks about us.

All we can do is to continue to keep it real.

[kjb434]

Yeah,

Since when do the world's opinion matter to us.

We aren't a better city because a book or the opinion of a travel in Paris likes us.

[arche_757]

I guess it was more of a rant for me, as an architect (well nearly one) I see little in Houston that is being done now to further the cities once cutting edge stance on architecture. In fact Houston is so far behind other cities its sad. Really sad. We cant even think of comparing the modern architecture that abounds in Europe to anything in Houston - even the highrises, modern homes here are far less - well modern, than those on the west coast and east coast. We dont have the resources to draw back on our heritage - like Chicago, Baltimore, Philly, San Fran ect.... so I guess the world (architectural world - since those are the most important to me) can go elsewhere and write about Cinn. Ohio, or Denver, or Seattle - because those cities even with much smaller economies and fewer arts organizations ect... attract people who want to live in a modern way, look at good modern architecture, or atleast nice urban spaces. Sure let the world go screw themselves - because afterall its in their eyes not ours as to how great a city is right? I mean I think the world of Houston but what does that matter to some Scandinavian couple looking to spend some time and money over here in the states. We have done little in recent years to bring cutting edge architects here to design buildings that are usually overated yet they do draw in other creative types who then help to foster new architectural growth. After all modern is associated with smart/upper crust/intelectuals ect.... New Orleans is a city with great history and great old buildings but since its not modern people think little of it as a place for learning, and living.

[MidtownCoog]

cities once cutting edge stance on architecture

In your opinion, what are the top 3 buildings that once made us cutting edge?

I know what I like when I see it, but don't have much knowledge of what once "put us on the map".

[VelvetJ]

arche 757, thank you for that post. You are totally correct. It is such a shame that both Houston and Dallas don't get the respect they should have considering they are the largest cities in Texas. I will expound on your post very soon but I have to keep it short for now.

MidtownCoog and kjb434, truly with all due respect, the attitude of your posts are exactly what has retarded this city. I have said this before on a number of occassions here, but it is great not caring what others think of you.......to a degree. Quite frankly, I find it foolish for a city to totally void itself of how the world views it. For example, it's nice for us to think we have the cleanest air in the country, but if everyone else is waving red flags telling us our air is dirty, it would be wise to at least ask the question of WHY EVERYONE is continuously telling us that. Could it be possible our air actually is dirty?

The world can be unfair but I think both cities should ask some questions. Why are the cities viewed the way they are? Why is Austin considered the apple of Texas' eye to so many people. Why do so many people outside of Houston have such a negative view of our city? For anyone that loves Houston, it would be irresponsible simply to not care. Being smug, defensive and ignorant of certain things isn't going to get either city any brownie points.

[MidtownCoog]

Who are we trying to please and why are we trying to please them?

For anyone that loves Houston, it would be irresponsible simply to not care.

We do care.

But your attitude is simply saying "Houston is not good enough".

Is that how you really feel?

How can Houston ever get better with attitudes like yours?

[RedScare]

Arche and DJ's posts sound more like how to win a high school popularity contest than a reasoned discourse on Texas' two largest cities. It might surprise both of you to find both cities spend a lot of time and money trying to boost outsiders' opinions of the two cities. It may surprise you even more to find that much of the national and world view of Houston, Dallas and Texas is based on the view of Texas' most famous citizen and his wife, two people who haven't lived in either city in 15 years, and who have nothing to do with either city.

As long as perceptions are based on loose fitting stereotypes, which the two of you have yourselves used to describe Houston and Dallas, then the opinions on the two cities will only change one visitor at a time. And, just as Europeans don't give a rat's ass what an American who has never visited the continent thinks of Europe, I don't care what an uninformed outsider thinks of Houston.

My question is, why do you care what a person too lazy or close minded to research Houston or Dallas, or even to visit, thinks of the cities?

[VelvetJ]

Who are we trying to please and why are we trying to please them?

Well, to answer your first question about the buildings, I will say first and foremost Pennzoil Place. MidtownCoog did you not know that Pennzoil Place changed the face of the entire world? It was then that the world realized there could be more to modern architecture besides a big box. The world saw that building(s) and marveled.

Second, I would say Republic Bank ( the Brown/reddish Gothic 3 tiered giant downtown). Believe it or not, that building is one of the most famous in the entire world. In fact many recognize our skyline soley based upon that building.

Third, I would say Williams Tower. Who in their right mind would build a building like that 7 miles outside of a CBD? And further more, what city would allow that? Houston was one of the first cities to truly appear to have two significant seperate downtowns and the Williams Tower single handedly gave us that title.

Trust me, I could go on.

Now with regard to who we are trying to impress and why? Well, who were we trying to impress with the AstroDome? Who were we trying to impress with a port 50 miles inland from the ocean? Who were we trying to impress when Houston was chosen for the locations of the VERY first river rapids ride (Thunder River) in the world, and the first suspended coaster (XLR8). Who were we trying to impress with our infamous Galleria, and by allowing a 901ft office tower to be built next to it. MidtownCoog it's not so much as trying to impress the world as much as it is about Houston being a great place by being the best it can be. We as actual citizens will benefit from it by default, but the world will then see and be impressed by us, when will only make the city a better place. People begin to WANT to come here instead of only coming because of a job transfer. People begin to WANT to go to school here BECAUSE it is in Houston instead of despite it. People will WANT to come here for leisure instead of passing through on their way to San Antonio.

Houston is a place that has over 5 million people in it's metro. Any large city would, or at least should care about it's image. Houston is not Tyler Texas and it shouldn't act like it is.

[VelvetJ]

Arche and DJ's posts sound more like how to win a high school popularity contest than a reasoned discourse on Texas' two largest cities. It might surprise both of you to find both cities spend a lot of time and money trying to boost outsiders' opinions of the two cities. It may surprise you even more to find that much of the national and world view of Houston, Dallas and Texas is based on the view of Texas' most famous citizen and his wife, two people who haven't lived in either city in 15 years, and who have nothing to do with either city.

As long as perceptions are based on loose fitting stereotypes, which the two of you have yourselves used to describe Houston and Dallas, then the opinions on the two cities will only change one visitor at a time. And, just as Europeans don't give a rat's ass what an American who has never visited the continent thinks of Europe, I don't care what an uninformed outsider thinks of Houston.

My question is, why do you care what a person too lazy or close minded to research Houston or Dallas, or even to visit, thinks of the cities?

Well I can only speak from my experience and that is exactly what I did. And I find it interesting that since a certain family from Texas has been in "power" Austin's popularity has grown incredibly. Austin and San Antonio seem to have been spared these terrible images. Why? I am aware of the biases of the media nd am very much aware of the fact that some is due in part to that family, but please, if you are suggesting that is the main reason for the negative images of Houston, you are fooling yourself. Maybe I can connect you with the crazy number of smart talented people that have left this city since moving here because other cities offered more of what they wanted and needed.

And all of this so called money we are spending on advertising has gotten us nowhere and someone should be fired.

And lastly, can you honestly say that most people from New York, Boston, Frisco, Seattle, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles, San Diego, Philly, DC, and most cities in Europe, finally visit Houston and fall in love with the place? I can't because that has not been my experience.

Redscare you have expressed on many occassion how much you don't care, so it may benefit everyone if you just keep it at that.

[MidtownCoog]

I still think both of you are way off base.

If you judge the world's perception of Houston based upon a book in Brazos Bookstore I feel sorry for you.

I travel a lot for work and pleasure, and never get treated like the sub-human you two think Houston has become.

Houston needs to concentrate on Houston. As long as we continue to do that, good things will come.

But fretting about how we are perceived by others is an exercise in futility.

Edited October 7, 2005 by MidtownCoog

[arche_757]

Because the people Im talking about arent stupid tourists or to lazy to look up information on the city. Im talking about the people who research and write for Arch Record, Architectural Review, architectural books -- many of those authors are suprise suprise architects.

[RedScare]

I'm curious, VelvetJ. What have YOU done to improve Houston's image? Have you moved your business Downtown? Did you open a restaurant Downtown? Have you bought an old home inside the loop and spent your money to fix it up to improve the neighborhood? Have you supported Trees For Houston and Downtown Houston, Inc.?

This "uncaring" Houstonian has.

Just because I don't happen to have an inferiority complex about my hometown doesn't mean I don't care. It probably hasn't occurred to many of you that a big part of the reason that people you talk to badmouth Houston is because they are responding to your poormouthing it first. I seldom have to admit Houston takes a backseat to another city, and I seldom receive it back, except for those on this board crying about that pigsty Astroworld shutting down.

BTW, you are the first person I've heard in twenty years to badmouth Williams Tower.

[YakuzaIce]

Hold on, is this thread about Houston's perception to others in all facets, or just our perception to those who like modern architecture?

[VelvetJ]

I'm curious, VelvetJ. What have YOU done to improve Houston's image? Have you moved your business Downtown? Did you open a restaurant Downtown? Have you bought an old home inside the loop and spent your money to fix it up to improve the neighborhood? Have you supported Trees For Houston and Downtown Houston, Inc.?

This "uncaring" Houstonian has.

Just because I don't happen to have an inferiority complex about my hometown doesn't mean I don't care. It probably hasn't occurred to many of you that a big part of the reason that people you talk to badmouth Houston is because they are responding to your poormouthing it first. I seldom have to admit Houston takes a backseat to another city, and I seldom receive it back, except for those on this board crying about that pigsty Astroworld shutting down.

BTW, you are the first person I've heard in twenty years to badmouth Williams Tower.

Ah, that's sweet that you have done all of that to improve Houston's image. Let me get in on some of that hand action on your back. You deserve it. I mean, I knew you had your business downtown (basically on Main Street, correct?), but I hand no idea you had actually fixed up a old home. Boy I tell you, if I had the resources you have, I would do the exact same things. Poor me. I can only keepa hopin' anda prayin'.

And for what I do and have done to help improve Houston's image, let's just say I have done and do my part. There is a reason why I tend to harp on this particular subject, and it's not to simply express displeasure with Houston on the internet for fun to a bunch of people I don't know and who don't know me.

Lastly, who is badmouthing Williams Tower? You totally took my words out of context. Read it again.... a different way to get the point and make a couple of connections to what I was responding to. The Williams Tower added to the reputation we once had of being on the cutting edge. yourself.

By the way, despite your expressions in the past, I probably should have gone with, "you just don't get it", instead of labeling you as someone who "don't care".

arch_757, I apologize for taking the subject someplace else. With regard to architcture, unlike yourself, I am not in the profession of architecture and am just a simple armchair fan of it along with a few other friends. You have brought up some very good points that even myself as a casual fan have noticed. I've even stated on this site how Houston seems to have "lost it" in a number of areas, including in the design of buildings that are going up in the city. I recall at least two stories in the Chronicle over the past couple of years about Houston's lack of "umph" in architectural design lately. I have read a number of reasons as to why, including a shortage of natural materials, to financial struggles since 9/11. However in Houston I think it's bigger than just that, and ironically enough, IMO it is connected to what I have been preaching on this site about things in general in Houston nowadays. There seems to be a conservative element that is taking over the city, stunting it's potential and affecting it's ability to stay in step with the rest of the world. Even with the factors given for what's going on today in architecture, other cities in the U.S as well as abroad, seem to be cranking out absolute beauties. Many of the same issues Houston is facing, they are as well. So there is more going on here IMO.

Since you are in the business arch_757 and are in the trenches, I have some questions for you. You have obviously stated your personal opinion, but are your colleagues aware of Houston's lack of quality and modern designs lately? Are they aware that the world has taken note of it as well? Or do they not care as we as Houstonians have a tendency to do now? For those of you that have noticed, and have quality modern current designs available, what has generally been the response from those interested/have the ability to build buildings in the city to your designs? I'm sure some would say finances is the reason they don't bring in outside well known names for designs here anymore, but I'm also sure those outside of Houston aren't the only one's with great designs...........or are they?

[MidtownCoog]

I still say you both of you are longing for acceptance. From whom, I am not sure.

"Designs" alone do not make a city.

People do. Architects often seem to forget this important piece.

The human factor.

A prime example are the new glass towers in Asia and the UAE.

[texasboy]

I have always agreed with VelvetJ's post. I always cleaned off the ole specs and get ready for a schooling. No, but seriously. Midtown Coog, I feel that you agree with Velvet also, but your ego is just a little to high to admit it. Texas Pride is not an understatement. Most people probably do see where Velvet is coming from, but are being extremely complicated. It seems like we settle for mediocrity but then brag when we finally have a structure that can stand up with the rest of the world and we harp off of that one thing except being even greater than we can be.

[MidtownCoog]

My point that Houston could build the biggest, best, most expensive cutting edge builiding in the history of the world...

So lets say we do just that. And it looks wonderful, and architecture critics all over the world sing the praises of Houston.

How would that building impact the day-to-day lives of ordinary people who live here?

So we make a critic happy and you can find his book in Brazos Book Store?

Help me out here. I am serious.

At this point in Houston's history, we should concentrate on infrastructure. That's where the real results can be found.

[texasboy]

So you are saying how attractive the environment is has little to do with how an area is rated? Have you ever been to a place that offers the "same ____ but different box", as some people say and never realized how one could be more well known and exciting than the other?

Edited October 10, 2005 by texasboy

[MidtownCoog]

What I am saying is the "if we build it, they will love us" theory is prone to error.

[Gary]

I think there are valid points on both sides. On one hand I do see that Houston's lack of control over what goes up sometimes hurts design. On the other hand I think Houston's lack of control over what goes up is what made this city what it is. How else would the crazy Williams tower have been built, or the Dome etc etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that I to see the lack of planning here, but as crazy as it sounds I think that's what makes Houston unique. Sure some better thought out plans would be nice, but I take the good with bad.

Houston has a very odd character, at least that's my take, and I love that energy. The problem is that many outsiders are not aware of it. I mean have you ever been to a city that was more conveniant? I haven't and I'm fairly well traveled. An example is my trip two weeks ago to Atlanta. Among the cool architecture and spired buildings it was next to impossible to find food, and all I kept thinking was, Man I miss Houston. Gas was another issue. In Houston I can hit almost any corner in town and get gas. So the lack of zoning and planning has helped my life to become much more convenient.

Everyone dubs Houston as Space City, Bayou City or whatever. I like to call it "Convenient City".

By the way I'm from L.A. and love Houston, in fact at this point I have no intention of returning home.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Gary

[texasboy]

Here are some examples of the detailed projects happening in cities across the country. Just to give you an example. Houston is mediocrity at best. Projects that strike me in this city are Cosmopolitan, Houston Pavilions, and Kirby Condos. Others are decent but nothing to write back home about.

Los Angeles

San Diego

Chicago

Minneapolis

Seattle

Houston

These are just a sample.

And for the record, no it is not about being like other cities

Edited October 10, 2005 by texasboy

[MidtownCoog]

Neat renderings; however, a point in time snapshot of proposed, planned and in progress buildings from around the country does not mean Houston is doomed.

I fully belive Houston's best days are yet to come, while other think we have lost it for good.

Funny how that works, eh?

[Gary]

Here are some examples of the detailed projects happening in cities across the country. Just to give you an example. Houston is mediocrity at best. Projects that strike me in this city are Cosmopolitan, Houston Pavilions, and Kirby Condos. Others are decent but nothing to write back home about.

Los Angeles

San Diego

Chicago

Minneapolis

Seattle

Houston

These are just a sample.

And for the record, no it is not about being like other cities

First of all several of those projects in L.A. are dead. Also I don't see how the Houston thread was all that bad, there's some nice stuff going up.

I think that people forget that these things go in cycles, and Houston, while not terrible is just going through a slower cycle than a few other cities. Sure enough we'll be in the mix of things again, we certainly have a damn good head start.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Gary

[2112]

I'm curious, VelvetJ. What have YOU done to improve Houston's image? Have you moved your business Downtown? Did you open a restaurant Downtown? Have you bought an old home inside the loop and spent your money to fix it up to improve the neighborhood? Have you supported Trees For Houston and Downtown Houston, Inc.?

You know, Houstonians exist outside the loop, incase anyone noticed. With all due respect, what I read in your post is that improvements should be targeted inside the loop. So if I make my outer loop neighborhood a better place

[arche_757]

Just to kick a dead horse...

...as stated earlier - I was ranting.

Yes, Houston isnt thought of as highly as other cities for cutting edge modern architecture (~present day projects), we do have some wonderful examples of postmodern and mid-century modernist architecture. Not to mention a couple of really outstanding buildings namely Piano's....

But... we lack the creative forces of LA, Chicago, New York.... why? Not quite sure, but I think it has something more to do with those forking over the money, our developers arent concerned with world class, all they care about is turning a profit quick. As RedScare said - it will change it has to, we have some ground breaking projects comming up, ie. the downtown park, and hopefully the work will continue on the Buffalo Bayou project. Apparently the Main Street Project is dead - Im still waiting to see anykind of hint of the flower market.

I think someone mentioned earlier "is this a thread about Houston's image, or its modern architect?" I guess I intended it to be both, since the image I was writing about is that of Houston's architecture - as seen from an architects eyes.

About the whole image thing - to change the subject completely what do you think Houston's image should be?

What is Houston? How do you discribe this city, what are we trying to become? Spacecity, Bayou City, City with a big Heart? In your own words? What is Houston?

Edited October 13, 2005 by arche_757

[VelvetJ]

But... we lack the creative forces of LA, Chicago, New York.... why? Not quite sure, but I think it has something more to do with those forking over the money, our developers arent concerned with world class, all they care about is turning a profit quick.

arch_757, I will answer your question with regard to how I see Houston and what I want it to be shortly, but I think your above statement was key to a lot of things. You said, "We LACK the CREATIVE FORCES of LA, Chicago, New York". For current day, I would also add Atlanta, Miami, San Diego, and even Dallas to that list. I know you said you weren't sure why Houston didn't have it, but that leads me to my own questions. What can Houston do to make itself attractive to those creative minds that create creative forces in a city? What types of city characteristics attract those with creative minds on a significant level? How do we keep native creative minds in the city? (Before I go on, just let me say, I am NOT NOT NOT NOT saying there isn't a single creative mind in the city of Houston, so please no one take it that way). How do we get our citizens to even understand or care about the importance and need for a large city to have a significant creative force? If Houston had a significant creative force in the past, what killed it, or what was the reason it diminished? Someone please answer.

Now, what is Houston? What image do I want it to have? How do I describe it? I will answer soon but not now . Seriously, I will answer later.

[2112]

I don

[arche_757]

No, No, No,

I have worded a monster here, sorry for that! Perhaps I should point out that WHAT I speak of here isnt art/music/coffee/tofu whatever.

ITS ARCHITECTURE (not yelling)! End of story. I should have worded the post differently to begin with, but hey its my first topic in about 2 years.

Houston and Dallas are both considered architectural lightweights for being what they are - two of the nations largest cities! Yes some of these observations are taken from books, and even arch. journals. Sorry, but its hard to go to all the lectures about Houston and Dallas. Interestingly enough the lecutres I have been to that mention Houston tend to focus on many of the large scale projects here that are well, bad. Many of you can name a few, including our lovely Fed. Reserve Bank. You all missed the point or the shift in the focus of this discussion.

I dont care necessarilly about Austins music scene, but... another thing I pointed out is yes Houston (and Dallas) have good arts scenes, yet they dont play them up like Portland, Austin, ect.... thats not the fault of the two aformentioned cities, its the fault of the folks who "brag on Houston". We dont addvertise ourselves correctly in the smaller arts catagories (considering architecture to be the biggest one), yet in architecture there arent enough creative forces, We have the talent I have seen them, been to school with them, and have been in some of their classes. It is the creative tallent of the developers coming out to much that brings us down where we are. If they just let the architects do what they know best then we would have some good buildings. So far perhaps on Lake/Flato has been allowed to have any of that more hands on approach. Just look at the other new UTHouston buildings, bland, pathetic design from firms like FKP ect... they have people there that can design better buildings - I just think they are having their hands tied behind their backs by the people holding the money! Thats all Im saying, perhaps that makes it a little clearer?