Complaints About How Bicycles Act On The Roads

[Marksmu]

It's not just the required seat belts that are the big users of space. Its the child seats. That's where the real arms race in size is. They are friggin huge. I'll be glad when the last two little ones get tall and heavy enough to be only in belts. It will be much more room and comfort for everyone else in the vehicle. I admit - they probably are safer for the little ones (although with it seems like just about every single brand eventually being recalled - who knows) but man to they take up space.

Those toddler seats are gigantic. My back seat is enormous and the toddler seat takes up part of the middle seat on the bench....In my wifes much smaller car, two toddler seats would take up the whole back. There would be no usable middle seat and the kids would be able to reach out and smack each other.

The infant seats are not too bad though....Right now Im only 1 infant seat and 1 toddler seat. If we had a third before number 1 was out of the toddler seat I would need another vehicle. How ridiculous is that? A huge truck cant legally seat three kids under 5?

[Pleak]

I am glad kids are safer in cars, though it seems odd they're in booster seats until nearly kindergarten. When I was little my favorite place was lying in the floorboard, my head inches from the ground.

I agree - I'm glad they are safer too. And it's past kindergarten. I believe the new law which came into effect last year is booster seat till eight years old or 80 lbs. I'm glad they have the age limit - my 17 year old is only 87 lbs - she didn't hit 80 till about 2 years ago. She would have been pretty upset to have to be put back into a booster.

When I was little, I use to love to stretch out across the whole back seat and sleep. Guess it's a good thing there was never a panic stop needed back then.

[Pleak]

Those toddler seats are gigantic. My back seat is enormous and the toddler seat takes up part of the middle seat on the bench....In my wifes much smaller car, two toddler seats would take up the whole back. There would be no usable middle seat and the kids would be able to reach out and smack each other.

The infant seats are not too bad though....Right now Im only 1 infant seat and 1 toddler seat. If we had a third before number 1 was out of the toddler seat I would need another vehicle. How ridiculous is that? A huge truck cant legally seat three kids under 5?

My truck is older - 1997 - so no front air bag. So one of the big child seats goes in between my wife and me in front on the split bench. That lets us get more car seats/boosters in than the newer ones can.

I'm toying with the idea of finding a good welding shop and running a 1" steel bar behind the rear bench in my cab of my pickup. Up near the top of the seat. Then I could attach two more shoulder belts in the middle to it giving me 4 seatsbelts in back. My kids are small - and even full grown will be able to fit four across (once we get rid of those &*$* car seats).

[luciaphile]

When I was little, I use to love to stretch out across the whole back seat and sleep. Guess it's a good thing there was never a panic stop needed back then.

No, you're misremembering. There were sudden stops. You would have rolled into the floorboard. I was already there so there was really nowhere for me to go. In the front seat, yes, we occasionally hit our heads on the glove box, but that was why my mother always flung her arm out when she hit the brake, to prevent that.

[kylejack]

Conversely any driver could have peeled off and gone another route as well, but it seems to me the majority user should not have to cater to the minority user.

I guess my best bet is to just ride around on bicycles in giant packs with my friends, then. Use our majority to do what we want.

[samagon]

I agree - I'm glad they are safer too. And it's past kindergarten. I believe the new law which came into effect last year is booster seat till eight years old or 80 lbs. I'm glad they have the age limit - my 17 year old is only 87 lbs - she didn't hit 80 till about 2 years ago. She would have been pretty upset to have to be put back into a booster.

When I was little, I use to love to stretch out across the whole back seat and sleep. Guess it's a good thing there was never a panic stop needed back then.

Maybe this is part of the obesity problem, are parents fattening up their kids so they don't have to put them in booster seats?

I recall being packed like sardines into the wagon part of a station wagon a few times. One of my friends dad's had a Toyota Chinook, no seatbelts at all for the people riding in the back. we used to take turns 'surfing' in the little aisle thingy. Good times.

Typically though my parents were very strict that we wore our lapbelts while riding in the back seat, and this was back as far as the late 70s.

[Pleak]

No, you're misremembering. There were sudden stops. You would have rolled into the floorboard. I was already there so there was really nowhere for me to go. In the front seat, yes, we occasionally hit our heads on the glove box, but that was why my mother always flung her arm out when she hit the brake, to prevent that.

You might be right. I must have hit my head and lost the memory. That could explain so many other things, but I digress.

Your front seat tale makes me think of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer stops short on George's mom.

[Marksmu]

I guess my best bet is to just ride around on bicycles in giant packs with my friends, then. Use our majority to do what we want.

Once bicycles replace cars as the prominent and most widely used form of transportation then yes you will be the majority user. Until then your not helping your cause.

[brian0123]

I still don't understand the hatred of people in cars behind cyclists (especially in the city). If you don't like the cyclist in front of you, just go over to a different road. The cyclist slowed you down (by at most) a couple minutes and was obeying the law. You're throwing a hissy-fit and getting worked up over nothing. Chill out, roll down the window, enjoy the drive down Heights Blvd, and respect your fellow man who happens to want to get some exercise and not use a car.

[Marksmu]

I still don't understand the hatred of people in cars behind cyclists (especially in the city). If you don't like the cyclist in front of you, just go over to a different road. The cyclist slowed you down (by at most) a couple minutes and was obeying the law. You're throwing a hissy-fit and getting worked up over nothing. Chill out, roll down the window, enjoy the drive down Heights Blvd, and respect your fellow man who happens to want to get some exercise and not use a car.

Internet griping does not equal hatred.....I was not annoyed at the biker so much as the selfish attitude of the biker...his time is apparently worth more than 80-100 cumulative other peoples.

Its like making everyone behind you at a restaurant wait to order their meal b/c you are next in line and you are buying for your boss who has you on hold....why should everyone else wait for just one person when that person could just step aside and let the next one go.

Nobody got worked up, nobody tried to take the biker out, nobody even honked - but you could see the lines of cars behind him that were swerving left/right trying to figure out what the big hold up was about.

[kylejack]

Once bicycles replace cars as the prominent and most widely used form of transportation then yes you will be the majority user. Until then your not helping your cause.

The most widely used form of transportation is the bicycle. It has cars beat by nearly 4x. http://www.princeton...rtation_big.jpg

So please take your car or truck to the side streets, please.

[Marksmu]

The bicycle actually is the most widely used form of transportation.

Certainly not in this City and my gut says not in the US either, but I dont know that to be true.

[kylejack]

Certainly not in this City and my gut says not in the US either, but I dont know that to be true.

Oh, you want to talk local? Fine, I'll ride around in my local area with lots of bikes, and in those areas cyclists will be the majority and you minority auto users can cater to me.

[ig2ba]

Oh, you want to talk local? Fine, I'll ride around in my local area with lots of bikes, and in those areas cyclists will be the majority and you minority auto users can cater to me.

I guess my best bet is to just ride around on bicycles in giant packs with my friends, then. Use our majority to do what we want.

Feigning ignorance is not winning you any converts.

And what you're proposing (facetiously or not) - gathering a group of people to converge on a small area to enforce their will - is also known as a mob. Critical Mass tactics.

I see no car drivers (or pedestrians, bus riders, etc. for that matter) proposing similar action or even mentioning that such a childish thing should be done.

In matters of safety and security, the majority ought to account for the minority so that everyone is safe and protected.

In matters of individual rights - things that the government cannot constitutionally prohibit - the focus should be on minority groups, since it is easy for a society to slip into a pattern of denying minority group rights.

In matters of convenience and common courtesy, it's the majority that should be deferred to.

What is so difficult about this concept?

[kylejack]

In matters of safety and security, the majority ought to account for the minority so that everyone is safe and protected.

In matters of individual rights - things that the government cannot constitutionally prohibit - the focus should be on minority groups, since it is easy for a society to slip into a pattern of denying minority group rights.

In matters of convenience and common courtesy, it's the majority that should be deferred to.

What is so difficult about this concept?

If Arlington and Yale and Rutland are so great, why don't the cars just go there themselves? We cyclists like the bike lane on Heights. We like that it's only a one-lane road, which means less chance of a car sideswiping us while trying to change lanes. We like the high visibility near corners compared to the other roads.

If people are dragging their trash cans into the middle of the street, they are the problem, not the cyclist who is trying to avoid accidents.

[Marksmu]

The first bike down the trail can solve the problem for everyone and either move them or kick them over. Problem solved and you would probably feel pretty good about it...

[kylejack]

Maybe I've just been lucky enough to never ride down Heights on trash day, but yes, I would probably take some action that the can owners wouldn't appreciate.

[ig2ba]

If Arlington and Yale and Rutland are so great, why don't the cars just go there themselves?

That doesn't logically from what's been said here. Others have suggested that bicyclists biking on X are inconsiderate, and if they should try to Y or Z instead, or possibly bike on streets A or B or C since they are more appropriate for cars, with several alternatives suggested. "Cars should try A or B or C" is a non-sequitur.

If people are dragging their trash cans into the middle of the street, they are the problem, not the cyclist who is trying to avoid accidents.

I don't disagree on the trash cans. Sounds like a problem that can be addressed in isolation from the larger courtesy vs. rights argument. Solutions can range from the tempting but juvenile kicking down of all trash cans in the bike lanes ... to more sophisticated involvement of media to petitioning HPD to write tickets. Since it's only the landowners/renters that would suffer these consequences (as opposed to random vehicles driving through), I would expect behavior to change VERY quickly.

Does anyone have any pictures of this that they can share? I haven't seen this myself, but don't doubt it exists.

[samagon]

The first bike down the trail can solve the problem for everyone and either move them or kick them over. Problem solved and you would probably feel pretty good about it...

guess it depends on which way the trash can careens when it gets kicked.

but then, that's mighty selfish of the cyclist since there's a bunch of people using the lane for their trash, he should find a place to ride and not inconvenience all the trash cans (and homeowners).

[samagon]

That doesn't logically from what's been said here. Others have suggested that bicyclists biking on X are inconsiderate, and if they should try to Y or Z instead, or possibly bike on streets A or B or C since they are more appropriate for cars, with several alternatives suggested. "Cars should try A or B or C" is a non-sequitur.

I don't disagree on the trash cans. Sounds like a problem that can be addressed in isolation from the larger courtesy vs. rights argument. Solutions can range from the tempting but juvenile kicking down of all trash cans in the bike lanes ... to more sophisticated involvement of media to petitioning HPD to write tickets. Since it's only the landowners/renters that would suffer these consequences (as opposed to random vehicles driving through), I would expect behavior to change VERY quickly.

Does anyone have any pictures of this that they can share? I haven't seen this myself, but don't doubt it exists.

There's another higher level of sophmoricness that we can achieve, marksmu, I need to borrow your truck, and don't ask where all the trash cans in your bed came from, the less you know, the better off you are.

[kylejack]

That doesn't logically from what's been said here. Others have suggested that bicyclists biking on X are inconsiderate, and if they should try to Y or Z instead, or possibly bike on streets A or B or C since they are more appropriate for cars, with several alternatives suggested. "Cars should try A or B or C" is a non-sequitur.

I don't accept the premise that biking on Heights is inconsiderate. Those other mentioned streets seem like fine streets for cars or bikes. I ride on Heights because of the aforementioned advantages for cyclists. There's plenty of room for me and cars, as long as some clowns haven't littered it with cans.

[ig2ba]

Forgot who posted this (http://www.princeton.edu/~ina/images/infographics/transportation_big.jpg), but the figure 400 million automobiles in the world struck me as a very lowball estimate.

A simple search on Wikipedia shows that there are over 1 billion automobiles in the world today. Even as early as 1986, there were already 500 million. So maybe the 400 million mark was passed in 1980?

It'd be nice, as a starting point, to use only stats which aren't older than any of our HAIFers.

[ig2ba]

There's another higher level of sophmoricness that we can achieve, marksmu, I need to borrow your truck, and don't ask where all the trash cans in your bed came from, the less you know, the better off you are.

Not too long ago, I would've joined you out there. It would be very gratifying for at least a few minutes.

[kylejack]

Forgot who posted this (http://www.princeton...rtation_big.jpg), but the figure 400 million automobiles in the world struck me as a very lowball estimate.

Does the infographic say automobiles, or does it say something else?

The wikipedia figure includes buses and all types of trucks.

[ig2ba]

I don't accept the premise that biking on Heights is inconsiderate. Those other mentioned streets seem like fine streets for cars or bikes. I ride on Heights because of the aforementioned advantages for cyclists. There's plenty of room for me and cars, as long as some clowns haven't littered it with cans.

I don't think the argument is that ANY biking on Heights is inconsiderate, but that inconsiderate biking on Heights is considerate and inconsiderate biking on larger streets inconveniences more people. And also that people who are unable to be at least somewhat considerate of others have other biking and non-biking options available to them.

You might well be a considerate bicylclist on Heights; I have no idea one way or the other. I rode my bike on Heights for short distances before and I am certainly not one who derives pleasure by getting in other peoples' way. I'm sure I've gotten in a motorist's way before, but I dislike doing so for any longer than is needed, since aggravating people for extended periods increases the chances one will be involved in a conflict.

[ig2ba]

Does the infographic say automobiles, or does it say something else?

The wikipedia figure includes buses and all types of trucks.

So the majority of automobiles are trucks and buses? Hmmm... I think it's more like a quarter of vehicles or less.

Momentarily assuming that that is the case, it still doesn't matter since they are also inconvenienced by slow-moving roadblocks (e.g., Critical Mass) and use the same streets as cars.

[kylejack]

Cyclists spend ~29 days a month as targets for negligent homicides that will never be prosecuted. Can't we afford to have a few hours one day a month where cyclists can actually feel safe? Some places actually do this once a week, by law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciclov%C3%ADa

[samagon]

Does the infographic say automobiles, or does it say something else?

The wikipedia figure includes buses and all types of trucks.

400,000,000 is low.

There's an estimated 250,000,000 registered cars on the road in the USA alone. http://usa.org/cars/index.html

This article on hufpo seems to put the number over 1 billion.. http://www.huffingto...n_n_934291.html

that's still less than the number of bicycles reported by that graphic on the road, and I'd guess that this number is woefully low as well.

according to this article http://tech.fortune....-to-get-around/ there were 133 million bicycles produced just last year. which is twice the number of cars produced.

what's interesting, this article seems to be pulling data from that infographic: http://www.economist.com/node/18584086

There are more than a billion bicycles in the world — more than twice the number of cars

at least that's what one can infer from it, since they don't give out numbers of cars..

Anyway, across the world, there's WAY more bikes on the road and it makes sense too, cause for short trips, less than a about 5 miles, (when taking parking into consideration) a bicycle will get you to your destination in about the same amount of time. Under 3 miles, my money's on the cyclist walking in the door of the destination before the guy in the car.

[kylejack]

400,000,000 is low.

There's an estimated 250,000,000 registered cars on the road in the USA alone. http://usa.org/cars/index.html

"passenger vehicles"

I think the number is probably low too, but it might be hard to distinguish between cars vs other kinds of vehicles. Probably a pretty hard stat to put a finger on, but when you consider how many people there are riding bicycles in China and India, I think the bikes win it easily.

[RedScare]

I don't disagree on the trash cans. Sounds like a problem that can be addressed in isolation from the larger courtesy vs. rights argument. Solutions can range from the tempting but juvenile kicking down of all trash cans in the bike lanes ... to more sophisticated involvement of media to petitioning HPD to write tickets. Since it's only the landowners/renters that would suffer these consequences (as opposed to random vehicles driving through), I would expect behavior to change VERY quickly.

Does anyone have any pictures of this that they can share? I haven't seen this myself, but don't doubt it exists.

Well, I will disagree on the cans. In fact, it was such a ridiculous statement that I immediately looked at Heights Blvd. on Google Maps...then I got in my car to drive up and down Heights (since today was trash day. Heights is the best bicycle lane in the city. It is so wide that there is a parking lane of about 10 feet, and a 5 foot bike lane unencumbered by parked cars. There is STILL 20 feet left for the vehicle lane. And, not one trashcan was in the bike lane. They were all either against the curb, or in the parking lane.

What does this mean? Two things. Marksmu is full of it when he claims that a cyclist blocked 100 cars on Heights. At 40 feet distance between cars (20 feet for the car and 20 feet following distance), that would be a line of cars 4,000 FEET LONG...8/10 of a mile! That line of cars would extend in a continuous line from I-10 to 11th Street! Did not happen. Yes, marksmu, I just called you a bald-faced liar.

When faced with a clearly made up story, what do the cyclists do? Why, they respond with their own made up story about trashcans in the middle of the street. You all are baldfaced liars, as well!

Both sides...GROW UP! Quit using hyperbole to attempt to make a point. We all know that there are narcissistic drivers such as marksmu out there, as well as militant cyclists who only wish to annoy drivers. Neither are as numerous as the other side claims. I am a driver and a cyclist.I patiently wait for the considerate cyclists, and I have been known to tell the militant ones how much damage they do to the cause. Making up crap on an internet forum doesn't help anything.