Metro Changes Rail Plan

[Astro]

I am very happy about Metro's modified plan! This one makes much more sense and will accomplish much more as far as moving people from all part sof the city. I don't understand why those on the east side are complaining since they are still getting all of their transit lines they voted for in the form of BRT which is practically the same as light rail, and even better since it's less expensive. In addition to this they are getting a new light rail line which will connect UH to the west side of town. This is definitely a win-win plan for all of Houston...

[VicMan]

By the way, when are METRO board meetings?

I would like to ask for airport routes (including the Hobby continuing to Clear Lake route) ASAP.

[VelvetJ]

713 to 214, it's people like you Houston needs so badly in a powerful decision making position. Houston seems to be swinging more and more into one direction and it is causing the city to loose it's edge and retard it to a degree. That loss of "edge" can be seen everywhere, from architectural designs, to the attitude towards the city's citizens. We like to brag about our glorious past but in today's Houston, the Astrodome would not have been built, the ship channel would not be a reality, Pennzoil Place would more than likely be in Downtown Atlanta, and NASA and Bush Intercontinental would be in other places. We used to be known to set the bar, now it seems we are always a step behind.

I actually like the routes of this new plan better, however I am not thrilled that those that were promised rail are not getting it when they were told. I am also EXTREMELY fearful those BRT routes that are scheduled to eventually get rail won't do so for another 15-20 years. I hope I am proven wrong.

And those that do not believe this was a Delay and Culberson, "Do as I say or get nothing" situation should wake up a bit. IMO, this had less to do with the Feds and more with Delay and Culberson personally not being happy with the amount of light rail in the initial plan we voted for.

[RedScare]

I disagree with this post on nearly all counts.

The city finally started rail after 25 years of rejection (credit to Brown and DeLibero). Not token objection, but lawsuits, political and other rejection.

The city is making stands on its polluted image by buying hybrid cars, designing 'green' buildings, and pushing the state to strengthen and enforce its environmental laws.

We've built TWO Astrodomes in the last 5 years!

DeLay and Culberson OPPOSED light rail. This is a concession to the fact that their constituents are now asking for transit options.

NASA was aproduct of the same political deal-making that you now rail against (love that pun!).

713/214 should do a little research to see who was instrumental in getting federal funding for his bright yellow trains....it was Tom DeLay!

[RedScare]

Just a reminder that not all people view progress the same way:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3233855

[Ethanra]

Do people realize that rail cost billions of dollars? Who do expect to pay for all this. Don't you think that money can be used towards hiring more teachers, libaries, more police officers (exspeacially since their will be a shortage soon) etc... Sure LRT look neat and serve a purpose but not what they cost.

I can justify the Main Street Line. It runs through the heart of the city, it helps attract more conventions and activities between DT and Reliant Park. I can see that line paying for it self (with out going into detail). The next lines should run from the airports to DT and the Galleria area through Greenway plaza to DT. I can see how that can attract buisness (once again not going into detail). I always that a elevated train of some sort down Westheimer from the belt way would be effective to, maybe? Commute Trains from the burbs are needed IMO people would ride them to work and it wouyld encourage them to atten city events more.

Saying all this I got a consp. theory. Does any one think the plan that was laid out during the elections, was to attract the poorer ends of town to vote yes. Do you think the more wealthier ends of town would have voted yes to this plan. if the lrt were running through their areas. By saying this I mean most wealthier people enjoy their car and wouldn't ride lrt. ( i said most not all, so no1 argue about this and say u would, your only one person out of millions.) Also I mean most conservatives are against LRT and voted against lrt. They like keeping their money they earned and not spending tax money. So all of this the city needed a vote Yes so thats why they had the original plan to trick them for voting yes thinking it would run through their part of town. The poorer end maybe would haved voted against it if the original plan was this plan since they would have not rode it. Also why sould people who pay more taxes pay for a line that runs throug parts of town who pay virually no taxes.

Sorry if know of this makes any sense. Feel free to ask questions and I'll make any of my opinions more clear.

One last thing does taking 7000 cars of the rode clear up trafic in Houston? Is their a study or fact about this.

Thankyou

[Talbot]

^ It would seem that taking 7000 cars off the road would be a good start in clearing up traffic in Houston. But if your statement is meant to mean something else.. im not getting it?

[Heights2Bastrop]

I don

[Lowbrow]

I don

[VicMan]

"Do people realize that rail cost billions of dollars? Who do expect to pay for all this. Don't you think that money can be used towards hiring more teachers, libaries, more police officers (exspeacially since their will be a shortage soon) etc... Sure LRT look neat and serve a purpose but not what they cost. "

You are wrong about the teachers bit - Schools are handled by a variety of separate school districts in Houston, not by the cities.

Anyways, I say "Yes, it's worth it!"

The red line is not much, but wait until all of the suburban and airport lines are built!

"We've built TWO Astrodomes in the last 5 years!"

Huh?

The former football team kinda held the city hostage regarding the Astrodome, therefore we had to build those two stadiums if we wanted the teams to stay.

[GovernorAggie]

I don't get what is so hard to understand about the shift of more rail to the west side? Is it philosophically wrong? Yes, but that is the way it is with rail transit planning. Ironically, I think that Houston bucked a trend in basically replacing a subustantial bus ridership corridor with its existing rail line. However, any transit planner who is honest will tell you that the target 'audience' for light rail is the 'choice' riders. Agencies all over the US give the mostly poor, mostly minority transit 'dependent' riders the shaft because the know they will always be there. At least they are getting BRT lines and not just forsaking transit improvements to those areas all together.

Also, I can't understand why its so hard for people to understand that this is a good move because it goes light years to secure the money for transit improvements, even if it does add a swanky line to swanky areas. Isn't that all rail is anyway? Image? That image of sleek, sexy trains is what METRO is counting on to get those who have more transportation options to make the switch to transit. Is it a screwed up way of thinking? Yes. But it is what it is. Also, without this money with DeLay and Co. help, we could be looking at substantial delays for light rail. Ironically, the delays may have been so long, that they could have possibly been in place even after the scheduled time of about 10 years after the BRT lines would be built.

I understand the ridership argument--that people in the north, east, and southeast are the ones who have 'supported' METRO the most throught its ridership...but alas, let us not forget that METRO has a bigger coverage area than that and people even in the suburbs are paying for METRO even if they don't use it. Throw in that it's no secret that people paying fares only cover a small portion of transit costs and that it takes quite a bit more of a subsidy to cover costs and I can at least see some people's arguments to make some intermediate changes. I know, I know, people in the inner city subsidize those in outer areas with other infrastructure improvements, but it just shows a flaw in our system.

I keep referring to Charlotte, but they just started turning dirt on their first light rail line--and it's already about 2-3 years behind schedule. It was originally supposed to be done by this coming Spring, now they're looking at 2007 sometime--maybe. And they have federal help already. Delays happen in public projects. I think that the end date will actually be the same, but in the interim, instead of waiting with no improvements (because their lines were not rated very well), those areas will get a much improved transportation mode and infrastructure--complete with dedicated guideways, stations, and TVM ticketing machines.

[VicMan]

I've always wondered if the light rail had the same specifications as railroad lines. I would assume different gauge. How many lines run beside the Hardy and how much traffic do they currently see? Definately seems like a good commuter line route if nothing else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So why not send a letter suggesting METRO gets to work right away on a Hardy Toll Road (Bush IAH, Spring/Klein, and the Woodlands) system and a Hobby/Clear Lake/Galveston system? METRO should start these projects first thing!

[kjb434]

Light Rail and Freight rail are not compatible.

Commuter Rail (Heavy Rail) are compatible with Freight Rail.

This is why they are planning to use existing freight rail along US90 and Hempstead Highway.

[bachanon]

the 2003 referendum seems to have included a community consensus which this updated plan does not. however, having increased mobility options sooner than expected sounds great too. i'm conflicted.

[NewMND]

Kind of a random thought, but whenever they build the rail line down Post Oak, will the arches have to go to accomadate the LRT powerlines? I like the uptown arches.

[ricco67]

Lowbrow asks:

How many lines run beside the Hardy and how much traffic do they currently see?

Vicman, during various times I've traveled to and from IAH to downtown (up to 4 times a day) there are usually 6 trains (or so) at a dead stop waiting north of 610. I've never counted how many lines are on Hardy, but I'm assuming only two. A 3rd can be made to be dedicated as strictly commuter/light rail, but it would obviously have to make some arrangements with the railroad.

[Heights2Bastrop]

How many lines run beside the Hardy and how much traffic do they currently see?

As far as I can tell by looking at an aerial photo map, there is one set of tracks from The Woodlands to Spring, and at least two sets of track all the way in to the North Loop. From the Loop to Downtown there are two parallel routes that rejoin at a point just north of Downtown and I-10. The eastern segment is joined by the line running out US 59 at around Collingsworth.

[Ethanra]

^ It would seem that taking 7000 cars off the road would be a good start in clearing up traffic in Houston. But if your statement is meant to mean something else.. im not getting it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

7000 cars less = 2 billion dollars Hardly worth it

I didn't mean anything else, I just meant i feel most lr lines are a waste of money. Thier has to be a better way. The lines a i mentioned above I can get it, maybe? Look at Dallas lines, It cost tax payers 10's of millions of dollars a year for what, a fancy toy. Thier ridership decresaes by the month. Don't u think that will happen here?

Maybe I meant why should I pay my hard earned money to run stupid ass trains through the east end and north side for people who for the most part don't contribute thier fair share of taxes. At least if they are going to build this giant toys it will be in area they can recieve some benefit from it.

Sorry to sound like such a jerk-off but this topic angures me and at least this forum will listen and respond politely.

Thankyou

One more thing, if u can't handle the traffic move closer to work. Thats a great thing about houston is that the traffic in the burbs are worst then the city core. Also they are plenty of great affortable communities located close to the several buisness didtricts. Hell I live on gessner, briar forest area and can get to DT in 20 min during 5:30 rush hour. U just got to find a good route. 7000 less cars will not improve traffic dramaticly.

Can't afford a car or hate driving in traffic, Ride the damn bus it stops at every main bus stop hourly, or take park and ride on the HOV lanes.

[ricco67]

Ethanra sez:

7000 cars less = 2 billion dollars Hardly worth it

actually, it's more like 7000 per DAY, and driving along the mainstreet corridor as often as I do, it's VERY noticible once people got used to driving around the rail.

Maybe I meant why should I pay my hard earned money to run stupid ass trains through the east end and north side for people who for the most part don't contribute thier fair share of taxes.

I think that's a very bad statement on your part, I'd like to see how you can argue that particular point.

Perhaps if you read more of the posts on here, you can see the various debates and discussions on the very point you are saying.

Can't afford a car or hate driving in traffic, Ride the damn bus it stops at every main bus stop hourly, or take park and ride on the HOV lanes.

You forgot to include the Rail.

Taking buses and the HOV takes a substantial number of cars off the road, unless you sit there and calculate the people in buses and cars in the HOV lanes and other commuting options, you will not notice the impact of traffic unless you drive those routes every day.

Ricco

[VelvetJ]

Redscare, I think you missed my point. The last sentence of my first paragraph was really the key.

Anyway, I wonder what gas prices will look like in 5 years and if we will wonder if the money for rail is worth it?

Also, I would just like to say that I am really getting a kick out of what's happening with rail. When I first moved to Houston in 89' and Kathy Whitmire was pushing for rail, I said then, rail in Houston is inevitible and the longer this city waits, the more expensive it's going to be. I shook my head as they were removing the rail tracks along the Soutwest Freeway and out Westpark and replaced with a toll road. I shook my head as they were removing the tracks along the Katy Freeway in the late 90's. I shook my head when it was revealed where the precise location of Minute Maid Field would be and to now see a multimodule facility in the recently revised METRO proposal north of Downtown. And I shook my head as recently as a couple of years ago when Commuter rail on the existing tracks along 290 and another freeway (I forget) was shot out of the water because it was deemed too expensive.

Simply a hoot I tell ya'.

[RedScare]

VJ

Maybe I did miss your point. I wrote that before I had my coffee. I, too, think getting rail is a hoot. I also don't think it is nearly as expensive as the critics suggest, when compared to freeway construction, ROW, and auto gas and maintenance. But I'll have to address that later, as I have a meeting.

[2112]

By the way, when are METRO board meetings?

I would like to ask for airport routes (including the Hobby continuing to Clear Lake route) ASAP.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They'll get on it right away.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Some daily averages:

DART (Light Rail - 21.3 miles) - 52,600

(Commuter) - 7,600

(Bus) - 134,000

The "T" [Fort Worth]

(Commuter) - 6,000

(Bus) - 18,700

Houston METRO

(Light Rail - 7.5 miles) - 32,800

(Bus) - 275,500

For ____s and giggles:

Twin Cities (Minn-St. Paul - Light Rail) - 18,300

(Bus) - 209,000

King Co. METRO (Seattle - Bus) - 307,000

MDTA (Miami - Heavy Rail - 21.5 miles) - 60,000

(Bus) - 243,000

RTD (Denver - Light Rail) - 33,000

(Bus) - 180,000

[713 To 214]

Can you all get this thread back on topic? Just in case you all forgot, it's about how upset many Houstonians are that the mobility plan (including rail) they voted on in November 2003 has now been scrapped in favor of an alternative plan co-authored by Tom Delay and Mayor White.

[ricco67]

I'm sorry, I guess we got a mob version of ADD.

Damn Delay!

Anyone got donuts?

Ricco

[kjb434]

Well, we should be thank Delay for pushing our mass transit forward.

I don't see any other representatives backing this plan.

[Subdude]

Off topic but an interesting discussion, so I moved the posts about oil prices and drilling in ANWR into the exiting gas price thread right here.

[NewMND]

Can you all get this thread back on topic? Just in case you all forgot, it's about how upset many Houstonians are that the mobility plan (including rail) they voted on in November 2003 has now been scrapped in favor of an alternative plan co-authored by Tom Delay and Mayor White.

Speaking of Delay, did anyone see where he was comparing Houston to Iraq? I know people have different opinions of Houston, but I hope no-one thinks we're like Iraq!

As far as the upset people, I understand why they're upset, but I'm worried if we fight this, then we'll end up with nothing at all. The project will be stalled until it eventually dies, then in 20 years we go through the whole thing agin. I think this new plan could really work.

[Astro]

As far as the upset people, I understand why they're upset, but I'm worried if we fight this, then we'll end up with nothing at all. The project will be stalled until it eventually dies, then in 20 years we go through the whole thing agin.  I think this new plan could really work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. This plan is a huge improvement and a good compromise to save money and to get a lot built in a short amount of time... I'm worried as well that the protests could cause us to end up with nothing at all or to have to wait another lifetime.

[2112]

Can you all get this thread back on topic?