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Stop Gosling Oaks Affordable Housing Apartments On FM 2920 & Gosling Rd.


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Hello all; I've been aware of HAIF for years, but only occasionally dropped by... now, of course, that neglect of this vital forum has come back to bite me, as my neighbors and I have been caught off guard by a proposed TDHCA tax-subsidized low-income apartment complex set for possible approval, to be constructed directly across from my subdivision, Windrose, in NW Harris county, off FM 2920/Gosling & Kuykendahl/Pinelakes Blvd.

For more information, please check out www.stopgoslingoaks.blogspot.com

We created a GoogleMap here.

Word is rapidly spreading across Windrose and surrounding subdivisions... but we are definitely behind the eight-ball on this one, and need to respond quickly and effectively to kill this project.

We are therefore throwing ourselves on the mercy of fellow HAIF participants... we know these types of projects have been studied, discussed, and opposed for years now, and we know that many of you have experience and contacts on how best to fight.

Please, please share your knowledge.

We are, among anything else you consider valuable, looking for:

  • Strategies; what you know doesn't work and we shouldn't bother with; what might work and we should devote some effort to; what would be certain to work and we absolutely must do.
  • Tips: Links to resources, webpages, research practices to help us gather the types of information we need quickly.
  • Attorneys/advisers: Ideally pro-bono, but also possibly not; we are serious about killing this project, and if you are (or know) an expert who can take the fight to TDHCA and beat this developer on the bureaucracy's own terms, we're open to passing the plate and seeing if we can afford you.

Remember that desperate, panicked feeling you felt when you first learned a tax-subsidized low-income apartment complex was scheduled for YOUR neighborhood?

That's the suffering we are mired in right now.

Have mercy. Help if you can.

Thanks.

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Aside from that you're concerned about its external impacts, is there anything wrong with the plan, itself? Is there any way that it does not comply with the TDHCA requirements or with the spirit of the Tax Credit program?

I'd say that the best thing you've got going for you is that financing affordable housing projects is especially difficult right now. Whether it scores well or not, you've probably got plenty of time before it could be built.

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By matching the Google Map of the proposed development (inside Rural Area 15B, an area bounded by FM2920, Kuykendahl, and Rhodes) with the current (as of writing) high school and middle attendance boundaries and a new elementary attendance boundary, this is where the residents would be zoned to:

* Klein Oak High School: http://www.kleinisd.net/docs/1-mapkohs.pdf

* Krimmel Intermediate School: http://www.kleinisd.net/docs/1-mapkrimmel.pdf

* Mueller Elementary School (new): http://www.kleinisd.net/docs/50-ElemFinal.pdf (If Mueller was not opening, this would have been zoned to Benignus: http://www.kleinisd.net/docs/1-mapBenignus.pdf)

Klein ISD is opening high school #5, which had been delayed, on a to be announced date: http://www.kleinisd.net/default.aspx?name=kisd.08bond.home - I'm not sure whether this development would be still in Klein Oak or if it would be in another attendance boundary. Also when Ulrich MS opens (construction on it started in 2008), I'm not certain how it would affect this area (as I haven't seen newer attendance boundaries)

Here is the application log showing Gosling Oaks: http://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/multifamily/h...ntiesAppLog.pdf

For people who oppose the development, if any of these schools would be severely overcrowded and current KISD bonds would not remedy the situation, this could be a reason to oppose the development.

Edited by VicMan
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Ah, NIMBY rears its ugly head.

These people have to live somewhere, offering them affordable housing helps get them out of the cycle of poverty. Lower poverty means lower crime, it also means less people straining the social welfare programs' coffers, all of which benefits every one of us.

Unless this is going to put some strain on the local infrastructure such as overcrowding the schools, I don't think you will have any success getting this stopped.

And yes, I do have low-income apartments near my subdivision. It's not the end of the world.

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It's NIMBY but I don't see that the new neighborhood would really be in anyone's "backyard". The outline of this development doesn't abut existing neighborhoods (according to Google's Satellite view). It looks sorta isolated and vacant. So, I guess I'm not sure why you are worked up? The blog website states concern for the design/architecture of the complex - but this isn't IN a single-family home neighborhood. Even in the rest of Houston there isn't anything anyone can do about what is ACTUALLY built/developed next door to them luxury nor low-income. Ashby skyrise for example. Would this be a problem if it were simply any-ole apartment complex? Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about?

The site is within a block of Walmart and a gigantic shopping center and restaurants and a super market so it shouldn't be hard for the residents to get to services and food and whatnot. Seems like a fine place if you ask me.

I think the only arguments would come related to suggestions above: school population or environmental impact or something else infrastructural. I don't know the area well so I don't know what traffic is like on those streets.

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Another argument you could use to oppose the development is to say that METRO service does not already exist in the area, so it would be more difficult for residents of the complex to travel to their jobs.

If you see this map, the furthest METRO service goes is to 249 @ Louetta: http://www.ridemetro.org/SchedulesMaps/Pdf...-System-Map.pdf

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Amazing the sense of NIMBY there is even way out on 2920@Gosling.

If it was going to be put in my neighborhood, I would understand, but outside of my neighborhood? Not so much.

Like I often say, soon they are going to demand gates around their gated communities.

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We appreciate all the suggestions and feedback... even the attempted liberal guilt-trip about "NIMBY" ;)

BTW, reporters from ABC 13 and FOX 26 have already been out today to interview residents, and may be present to cover our initial community meeting at 8 pm at the Windrose meeting house tonight.

Stay tuned.

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Another argument you could use to oppose the development is to say that METRO service does not already exist in the area, so it would be more difficult for residents of the complex to travel to their jobs.

If you see this map, the furthest METRO service goes is to 249 @ Louetta: http://www.ridemetro.org/SchedulesMaps/Pdf...-System-Map.pdf

To be clear, the spirit of the Tax Credit program is to provide workforce housing, not housing for desperately-poor bums. Tenants are screened for criminal background, credit history, and income. They have jobs. And the vast majority have cars, even in urban environments.

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I am certain that is the "spirit" (aka "theory") of the program, but we all know there is a difference between theory and reality, between best hopes and actual results.

I think it revealing that the developers behind this project have never proposed that an affordable-housing for teachers, fire-fighters and police officers apartment complex be built with tax credits near their own homes.

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We appreciate all the suggestions and feedback... even the attempted liberal guilt-trip about "NIMBY" ;)

BTW, reporters from ABC 13 and FOX 26 have already been out today to interview residents, and may be present to cover our initial community meeting at 8 pm at the Windrose meeting house tonight.

Stay tuned.

How about you just build a big fence and buy some guns in case any of those mongrels invade your plantation?

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How about you just build a big fence and buy some guns in case any of those mongrels invade your plantation?

You gotta feel for them. Those neighborhoods were created to flee from the innercity neighborhoods and now the innercity is running to the outercity. We used to call it "white flight." I don't think that is necessarily the conscious motivation of these folks today, but passed down through the generations that started this is an irrational fear of "these people." Those of us that stayed in the city, have come to love the diversity. But fear motivates people to do some unpleasant things sometimes.

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I am certain that is the "spirit" (aka "theory") of the program, but we all know there is a difference between theory and reality, between best hopes and actual results.

Well actually, the properties are typically managed very competently. There are policies and procedures in place to minimize the number of false positives where background checks are concerned. After all, it does the owners of such a large and valuable asset no good to have to deal with high tenant turnover, not only among the people who have caused turmoil, but by those affected by it.

Where there is a schism between the spirit of the program and the reality is that the whole idea is to be able to develop housing of this nature in areas of a city that are not otherwise affordable to working class stiffs. The theory goes that by introducing the working class into less affordable neighborhoods, the residents and especially their children will benefit from interactions with more highly-productive people...like yourself. In actuality, this is an ideal location for such a project, given the underlying philosophy of the program. HOWEVER, the way that these proposals are scored, what typically happens is that Tax Credit properties are built in already-slummy areas and marketed at below-market rental rates, such as would suggest that the actual philosophy of the program is that everybody should be entitled to new-ish housing. That's the problem.

This one that you're talking about actually makes sense per the stated philosophy. It is a shining example of what ought to be done with this program, given its strategic goals.

I think it revealing that the developers behind this project have never proposed that an affordable-housing for teachers, fire-fighters and police officers apartment complex be built with tax credits near their own homes.

How do you know that they do not already live in close proximity to Tax Credit housing? If I recall correctly, there are over 120+ of these complexes scattered throughout Houston and its suburbs.

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You gotta feel for them. Those neighborhoods were created to flee from the innercity neighborhoods and now the innercity is running to the outercity. We used to call it "white flight." I don't think that is necessarily the conscious motivation of these folks today, but passed down through the generations that started this is an irrational fear of "these people." Those of us that stayed in the city, have come to love the diversity. But fear motivates people to do some unpleasant things sometimes.

River Oaks lived most of its life (until recent years) next to the fourth ward. Garden Oaks is next to Independence Heights. West University and Bellaire are next to the Gulfton area. Unless you are going to resort to euthanasia, at some point the property lines between the working poor and the middle class have to cross.

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I am certain that is the "spirit" (aka "theory") of the program, but we all know there is a difference between theory and reality, between best hopes and actual results.

I think it revealing that the developers behind this project have never proposed that an affordable-housing for teachers, fire-fighters and police officers apartment complex be built with tax credits near their own homes.

We appreciate all the suggestions and feedback... even the attempted liberal guilt-trip about "NIMBY" ;)

BTW, reporters from ABC 13 and FOX 26 have already been out today to interview residents, and may be present to cover our initial community meeting at 8 pm at the Windrose meeting house tonight.

Stay tuned.

And yet you still haven't told us why you oppose the project. What bad things do you think will happen once this project opens? You came here asking us for our support, yet you give us no reason to support you, and all but one of us just don't see what you're up in arms about. Convince us. If you can't even do that, can't even articulate your concerns to us, how do you expect to convince TDHCA?

You can talk about "attempted liberal guilt trips" all you want, but right now you are coming across as a reactionary alarmist. If you articulate your concerns to the reporters as badly as you did here in writing, you and your fellow residents are going to come across really badly on 13 and 26 tonight. You're going to look like racists, even if you aren't That's going to be the best way to slant the story, because there will be no other way for them to sell it if you don't express valid concerns.

Edited by Reefmonkey
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And yet you still haven't told us why you oppose the project. What bad things do you think will happen once this project opens? You came here asking us for our support, yet you give us no reason to support you, and all but one of us just don't see what you're up in arms about. Convince us. If you can't even do that, can't even articulate your concerns to us, how do you expect to convince TDHCA?

You can talk about "attempted liberal guilt trips" all you want, but right now you are coming across as a reactionary alarmist. If you articulate your concerns to the reporters as badly as you did here in writing, you and your fellow residents are going to come across really badly on 13 and 26 tonight. You're going to look like racists, even if you aren't That's going to be the best way to slant the story, because there will be no way to sell it if you don't express valid concerns.

I can't speak to Channel 13, but I have personal experience with Fox 26. While I spoke of reconciliation between my neighborhood and the developer that was trying to build there, they slanted it to appear that I was furthering the fight. Beware of them, they will make it ugly and dirty, regardless of your intent.

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Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing. This is not a "vacant" area. There are several communities with a 1-mile radius of the proposed site. One in particular is diagonal and homes start in the $300,000. This would drastically change the property values for this area as well as the marketability of the surrounding neighborhoods. You cannot rely on GoogleEarth to show you all of the development. (They still have not updated GoogleEarth with all of the devastation of Hurricane Ike more than 8 months ago.) MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS. We moved out of downtown to get away from "low income" housing and now they are proposing to use my tax dollars to move them right in; not to mention the impact this would have on our schools. Klein ISD is having to build elementary school just about every year to keep up with the development in this area. FM2920 and Spring Stuebner are parking lots at 5pm and we should be using our tax dollars to expand these roads rather than bringing in more people.

And most of the developers do not care about the maintenance of the development. Look at the Greenspoint area for example. Cityview spent so much money fixing up that area and marketing it as a good place to live. Now they are renting to anyone with a pulse just to get the rent check. It's all about the $$.

Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about? YES!! I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

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Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing. This is not a "vacant" area. There are several communities with a 1-mile radius of the proposed site. One in particular is diagonal and homes start in the $300,000. This would drastically change the property values for this area as well as the marketability of the surrounding neighborhoods. You cannot rely on GoogleEarth to show you all of the development. (They still have not updated GoogleEarth with all of the devastation of Hurricane Ike more than 8 months ago.) MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS. We moved out of downtown to get away from "low income" housing and now they are proposing to use my tax dollars to move them right in; not to mention the impact this would have on our schools. Klein ISD is having to build elementary school just about every year to keep up with the development in this area. FM2920 and Spring Stuebner are parking lots at 5pm and we should be using our tax dollars to expand these roads rather than bringing in more people.

And most of the developers do not care about the maintenance of the development. Look at the Greenspoint area for example. Cityview spent so much money fixing up that area and marketing it as a good place to live. Now they are renting to anyone with a pulse just to get the rent check. It's all about the $$.

Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about? YES!! I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

And there you have it...But at least she is honest about it. Keep on moving momma, eventually you'll run into somebody protesting your existence.

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If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

I live in a townhouse in the Third Ward. If I can live in an entire community populated mostly by low-income people I think you can afford to live near one single development. These developments are all over and I'd wager that I live within 5 miles of many more such projects than you.

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Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing. This is not a "vacant" area. There are several communities with a 1-mile radius of the proposed site. One in particular is diagonal and homes start in the $300,000. This would drastically change the property values for this area as well as the marketability of the surrounding neighborhoods. You cannot rely on GoogleEarth to show you all of the development. (They still have not updated GoogleEarth with all of the devastation of Hurricane Ike more than 8 months ago.) MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS. We moved out of downtown to get away from "low income" housing and now they are proposing to use my tax dollars to move them right in; not to mention the impact this would have on our schools. Klein ISD is having to build elementary school just about every year to keep up with the development in this area. FM2920 and Spring Stuebner are parking lots at 5pm and we should be using our tax dollars to expand these roads rather than bringing in more people.

And most of the developers do not care about the maintenance of the development. Look at the Greenspoint area for example. Cityview spent so much money fixing up that area and marketing it as a good place to live. Now they are renting to anyone with a pulse just to get the rent check. It's all about the $$.

Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about? YES!! I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

Walmart attracts the poor just about as much as anything. You're first mistake was letting the Walmart build there.

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I live in a townhouse in the Third Ward. If I can live in an entire community populated mostly by low-income people I think you can afford to live near one single development. These developments are all over and I'd wager that I live within 5 miles of many more such projects than you.

And I bet that I pay more in property taxes and for my home than you did. You chose where you wanted to live as did I. Those developments were there when you chose your home so you knew what you were buying. This is a developer wanting to use MY tax dollars to build a community of socially dependant people. Move them in next to you...what's one more in your area?

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I don't understand what the fear is about. The people working at local low-wage businesses need to live somewhere. It seems logical that they have an affordable place to live within reasonable commuting distance. If you don't want to live near other people or conveniences, you could just buy a large plot of land in the country and fence it off.

I also think subsidized housing is emblematic of the "low prices no matter what the cost" philosophy of retailers like Walmart and the consumers who shop there. Most of the people working at such retail establishments can never even hope to live in a luxurious four bedroom house like the ones you and your neighbors probably have.

Edited by barracuda
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I grew up in the area. My parents and 2 brothers live right down the street from there still. I am not upset by it.

Well great..but I noticed you didn't say YOU live here. Maybe that's why you are not upset...it's your parents property value not yours.

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The land is cheap out there. Central Houston's land isn't cheap anymore. They can't afford to buy enough property to build these complexes in town anymore. And just like people who can't afford the property near or in the centrals areas, the developers have had to move out as well.

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And I bet that I pay more in property taxes and for my home than you did. You chose where you wanted to live as did I. Those developments were there when you chose your home so you knew what you were buying. This is a developer wanting to use MY tax dollars to build a community of socially dependant people. Move them in next to you...what's one more in your area?

You only have legitimate domain over your own property. If you want to control what is built on neighboring property, buy up the land and build whatever you want.

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MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS.

In principle, I agree that that is a problem. I do not agree with the rationale of the Tax Credit program, either in principle or in practice.

However, the strategic intent of the program was set up by our elected officials, and it will only be fixed by way of new legislation by elected officials. It's not a line of argument that you're going to be able to use to block this particular project.

Sorry, but that's reality.

And most of the developers do not care about the maintenance of the development. Look at the Greenspoint area for example. Cityview spent so much money fixing up that area and marketing it as a good place to live. Now they are renting to anyone with a pulse just to get the rent check. It's all about the $$.

Cityview is neither a Tax Credit project nor without leasing standards. This comment is irrelevant to the issue.

But you are correct that "it's all about the $$." The thing is, though, that aside from the very worst complexes, which are not typically professionally managed, background checks are standard for a reason other than to satisfy the complexes' neighbors. It is to manage liability and property risk, to reduce tenant turnover and the rate of evictions (which impacts the operating budget in a big way).

Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about? YES!! I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

You purchased a home in a part of unincorporated Harris County which has numerous tracts of undeveloped land and no zoning. You knew that. Within your neighborhood you have deed restrictions, however those deed restrictions have no jurisdiction beyond that neighborhood. You knew that. The regulatory environment offers you very little recourse to resolve grievances of this sort. You knew that.

The school district is very aware that they have vacant land and are growing and that one component of this growth will be from multifamily properties. In a district as large as Klein ISD, they may even have a full-time demographer on staff. And to supplement those efforts, many school districts also hire out consultants to forecast where growth is likely take place, and these consultants certainly do take the characteristics of multifamily residences into account. If Klein ISD is caught unprepared, it was their responsibility and it was their own failure.

I sympathize with your situation, however the circumstances being what they are, the risk of a project like this impacting your community has to be accepted as a systematic risk, one that is exceedingly difficult to avoid. If you happened to have previously believed otherwise, well you'll have to chalk it up as an error on your part and take personal responsibility for it.

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You only have legitimate domain over your own property. If you want to control what is built on neighboring property, buy up the land and build whatever you want.

NO I have a voice and I have State Representatives and I have neighbors that all have voices. These projects have to have approval to use our tax dollars.

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