Houston's Archicture Heritage

[H-Town Man]

I was not meaning to be antagonistic. I'm just trying to understand why you think people in Houston don't think/talk about buildings and architecture as much as those in other cities? No fight being looked for. Or perhaps more to the point what makes you think people in other cities spend their time talking about buildings? Do you spend your time in Houston in similar ways and with similar groups of people as you did in the Boston area? Perhaps it was something unique about the people you were around at that time in that place, rather than anything peculiar about either Houston or Boston.

Does Boston have an organization such as the Rice Design Alliance, or a magazine such as Cite? And there is no reason to limit this comparison to Boston. Do most other cities have comparable organizations and publications? And FWIW, I'll take the new Harris County Courthouse over the Boston City Hall any day ;-)

The Boston Society of Architects is vastly more significant than the Rice Design Alliance in the architectural world, and there are probably a dozen magazines there comparable to Cite. The Houston architectural scene is small potatoes compared to Boston, let alone Chicago or New York. Those cities probably discuss architecture more for the same reason that they've engaged in comprehensive planning and historic preservation while we haven't... they just care more.

Peter Marzio, director of the MFAH, has had some good ideas on why Houstonians are not interested in cultural matters the way people are in other cities... I would try Googling him.

Phillip Johnson deliberatly designed the Flemish style BoA to cover up Pennzoil. He said it was his Ayn Rand moment. He loved Pennzoil and hated the BoA pile of crap. Never let it be said that Houston does not have some of the best urban architecture and never doubt that people like Dominique DeMenil had a hand in it. For all her good taste she saw the ugliness of the corporate crap going up and loved the fact Johnson spit in the face of the developers of the BoA.

He said he felt like Domnique Francon throwing the exquisite and priceless work of art down the air shaft so no one else could pollute it with their eyes.

Priceless.

As for our architectural heritage, we are unique in the fact we have short-sighted "free marketers" who have no use for heritage. Their end result will be an Aggie designed city of mediocrity devoid of soul and character.

What's with you and Aggies? A&M cares more about heritage than any other school in this state.

[nmainguy]

I guess I'm still not getting the part about spitting in the BoA developer's face. I recently read a biography of Philip Johnson and one thing that was clear about him was that he wasn't necessarily consistent in his comments and statements from time to time. He played to his audience, if you will, and would say whatever he thought might impress the audience...

Alll that being said. I'm not sure what it really has to do with Houston's archtictural heritage. I love both of those buildings (except for the way the BoA building has no connection with the sidewalk traffic)

He was a pissy queen but adamant in his beliefs. He had no trouble speaking his mind in front of Hugh Lidke [maybe I have the name wrong?] a potential repeat customer. Lidke seemed to get a chuclke out of the idea.

Personally, I love the BoA...I just wish it was elsewhere. I feel a building like Pennzoil should never be covered up. It is an architectural icon but it's creater sought to protect it by covering it up as a second best alternative to throwing it down the airshaft.

Both buildings are a part of our architectural heritage. Sometimes they connect to the street-as Pennzoil does by literally inviting you into the atrium from either Milam or Louisiana. Sometimes they don't as the BoA isn't especially inviting with it's narrow walk-through. But each has it's meritis. My only issue is that the BoA should have been set adjacent to the mundane as opposeed to covering up the magnificient.

[nmainguy]

What's with you and Aggies? A&M cares more about heritage than any other school in this state.

They are just poor designers. My oldest niece is a grad-she is smart and succesful in her field of animal genetics and procreation and we are all proud of her. She is a leader in the preservation of our state's agricultural heritage by advancing eco-friendly programs that helps to restore that we have damaged and to preserve what we haven't-so far.

So I really have nothing against ags in general. But as of now, they produce mundane and unimaginative architects who offer little if any imagination.

It's definatly not a dig on Aggies-just on their lame College of Architecture.

[infinite_jim]

50 years from now the pennz energy bldg will have a similar posture to the eperson bldg of now

Like a diamond in the ruff

p.s. do a google search for postmodernism and that's houston in a nutshell

[westguy]

I wouldn't blame the Ags school. There's not much opportunity for architects born in the United States. Aren't most of the major projects around Houston done by Morris? Its not like any arch graduates are going to be designing there after they finish school. If they want to set up a private practice they really won't be able to compete with the big firms for clients.

It isn't the same for European architects because many of them get a chance to make names for themselves. Every city in the world wants Calatrava or Piano (for example). Perhaps they are too busy or its too expensive for this city to do what everyone else is doing.

[Subdude]

Perhaps they are too busy or its too expensive for this city to do what everyone else is doing.

I don't buy it. A city the size of Houston can afford some top-rank architecture. In any event, it's not just an issue of hiring expensive "starchitects" for their name value. Good architecture doesn't necessarily have to cost more.

Phillip Johnson deliberatly designed the Flemish style BoA to cover up Pennzoil. He said it was his Ayn Rand moment.

Laughed when I read that, but it certainly doesn't agree with the impression I had of Johnson. I pictured him as more the Keating type.

Well color me skeptical about how often one hears New Yorkers, Bostonians and Chicagoans having conversations about particular buildings. I have spent a fair amount of time in each of those cities and I can honestly say I have never heard such a conversation, let alone "all the time". I'm not sure I buy that people in those cities discuss their buildings more often than Houstonians.

As to the paper... the Chron doesn't have an architecture critic for the same reason they don't have a real estate reporter worthy of the name. The Chron is America's worst major newspaper.

There's no way we can quantify the degree of interest in local architecture that you would find in different cities. I admit for me it is really a matter of impression. But in other cities I have seen debates about buildings in letters to the editor, and wide selections of books on local buildings. To me, the lack of an architecture critic in the Chronicle is one indicator, but the problem is really apparent in the quality (or lack thereof) of most recent major projects.

[H-Town Man]

I've read that when Bank of America was first built (then RepublicBank), Johnson came to town to see it and had his driver go back and forth on I-45, so much did he enjoy looking at what he had made.

I also read an actual quote of his where he said that he thought RepublicBank was the most beautiful building in Houston. He said that many locals thought the Transco Tower was the best, and conceded "it's pretty," but said that he thought in the long run we would come to see RepublicBank as the most beautiful.

[Houston19514]

The Boston Society of Architects is vastly more significant than the Rice Design Alliance in the architectural world, and there are probably a dozen magazines there comparable to Cite. T

Houston also has an organization of architects. A rather different thing from the RDA. One of the things that occurred to me when you initially asked the question about how to promote more interest, was to patronize and encourage others to patronize the new gallery space that the society of architects opened in Bayou Place. (and also patronize and encourage others to patronize the many activities of RDA).

Can you name 4 or 5 of those publications in Boston that are comparable to Cite? I'd like to take a look a them.

[H-Town Man]

Houston also has an organization of architects. A rather different thing from the RDA. One of the things that occurred to me when you initially asked the question about how to promote more interest, was to patronize and encourage others to patronize the new gallery space that the society of architects opened in Bayou Place. (and also patronize and encourage others to patronize the many activities of RDA).

Can you name 4 or 5 of those publications in Boston that are comparable to Cite? I'd like to take a look a them.

Not off the top of my head. The Boston Society of Architects is not just "an organization of architects," it's one of the preeminent gatherings of architects in the world. If you think Houston's architectural scene is comparable to Boston's, then fine. I might as well be arguing whether or not Boston has a better baseball following, or is more Irish... if it's not immediately obvious, I rest my case.

By the way, I just did a couple of google searches:

boston architecture -- 24,400,000 hits

houston architecture -- 2,760,000 hits

Try it yourself and see what comes up.

[houstonfella]

Last time I was in NY (this summer), I went to lunch with a few of my co-workers. We walked past a skyscraper under construction. I was like wow. What is this building going up and how tall will it be? Ummm..... they were clueless. I suppose it is because there are lots and lots of new buildings under construction in New York; so New Yorkers don't seem to notice (or care)about most of the new construction. Of course Freedom Tower is of some interest to the locals, but outside that, it is "oh, just another highrise." I like it that some of us show a lot of interest in Houston's Architecture. Those mega-cities seem to take it for granted.

[Houston19514]

Not off the top of my head. The Boston Society of Architects is not just "an organization of architects," it's one of the preeminent gatherings of architects in the world. If you think Houston's architectural scene is comparable to Boston's, then fine. I might as well be arguing whether or not Boston has a better baseball following, or is more Irish... if it's not immediately obvious, I rest my case.

By the way, I just did a couple of google searches:

boston architecture -- 24,400,000 hits

houston architecture -- 2,760,000 hits

Try it yourself and see what comes up.

Calm down man. I did NOT say that Houston's architectural scene (whatever that is) is comparable to Boston's. I don't doubt for a minute that Boston has a larger, more mature architectural scene... for starters, it's a larger, more mature city. I'm just not buying your story about all of Boston going around having conversations about architecture "all the time". Nor do I propose we attempt to create such a freaky atmosphere in Houston.

And FYI, from their own website: "The BSA is the eastern Massachusetts regional association of approximately 4,000 public, professional and affiliate members and is the largest branch of the American Institute of Architects" (sounds pretty much like an organization of architects to me...)

Back to the point, if I may... I asked how you would envision a greater public interest in architecture to manifest itself... I'm just not believing that Houston will EVER have people sitting around discussing architecture all the time as you say they do in Boston. Realistically, that is only going to occur all the time or even on a regular basis within certain relatively small groups of people who for one reason or another have a special interest in design and/or architecture.

Last time I was in NY (this summer), I went to lunch with a few of my co-workers. We walked past a skyscraper under construction. I was like wow. What is this building going up and how tall will it be? Ummm..... they were clueless.

Hmmmm... imagine that. Doesn't quite fit H-Town Man's description of life in NYC, does it? ;-)

[Houston19514]

To me, the lack of an architecture critic in the Chronicle is one indicator, but the problem is really apparent in the quality (or lack thereof) of most recent major projects.

I think the lack of a Chronical architecture critic perhaps more of a cause, than just an indicator...

I know you don't like the new courthouse, and I'm not sure what other major projects you think are of low quality, but architecture, good and bad, applies to minor projects as well and in that category, I think Houston is seeing some good work. Some of the projects at UH are quite good, IMO. And in the more major category, 2727 Kirby appears quite good (assuming it really is under construction). I think the proposed Intermodal Terminal looks pretty exciting. Some of the new buildings in the Medical Center have been good.

I think there is a tendency for people (and it seems to apply especially to Houstonians) is to focus only on the bad stuff at home and only on the good stuff away from home. Part of that is the fact that you see all the bad stuff at home, but mostly just the good stuff from out of town, so we tend to forget that those other towns have plenty of bad and mediocre architecture too.

[H-Town Man]

Calm down man. I did NOT say that Houston's architectural scene (whatever that is) is comparable to Boston's. I don't doubt for a minute that Boston has a larger, more mature architectural scene... for starters, it's a larger, more mature city. I'm just not buying your story about all of Boston going around having conversations about architecture "all the time". Nor do I propose we attempt to create such a freaky atmosphere in Houston.

And FYI, from their own website: "The BSA is the eastern Massachusetts regional association of approximately 4,000 public, professional and affiliate members and is the largest branch of the American Institute of Architects" (sounds pretty much like an organization of architects to me...)

Back to the point, if I may... I asked how you would envision a greater public interest in architecture to manifest itself... I'm just not believing that Houston will EVER have people sitting around discussing architecture all the time as you say they do in Boston. Realistically, that is only going to occur all the time or even on a regular basis within certain relatively small groups of people who for one reason or another have a special interest in design and/or architecture.

Hmmmm... imagine that. Doesn't quite fit H-Town Man's description of life in NYC, does it? ;-)

Now you are really exaggerating what I said. No, people are not always talking about architecture in those cities. I don't think that anybody besides you interpreted my original post as describing such a "freaky atmosphere." My point is that the public in those places is generally more sensitive to design than the public in Houston - you're much more likely to hear people criticizing the design of a new building there than here. Like you said, it's a more mature city (though not larger).

As for the BSA, it's the largest branch of the AIA, a major nexus in the world of architectural thought, with prestigious awards given nationally, a prestigious magazine, etc. In other words, not JUST an organization of architects - although yes, Houston 19514, it technically is an "organization of architects," and yes, Houston does too have an organization of architects of its very own.

This, by the way, is what I hate about this forum - people going out of their way to start arguments over nitpicky interpretations of what another person said, doing everything they can to avoid seeing the basic point, splitting hairs, etc. I suppose they get a kick out of it whenever they can derail a serious discussion, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just childish.

[H-Town Man]

I think the lack of a Chronical architecture critic perhaps more of a cause, than just an indicator...

No, it's an indicator. The existence of a TV critic at the Chronicle is not what caused Houstonians to start watching TV. Leon Hale's columns did not cause Houstonians to become nostalgic about the countryside - they serve that nostalgia. The Chronicle is a business - they are going to do what sells the most newspapers.

[Houston19514]

Now you are really exaggerating what I said. No, people are not always talking about architecture in those cities. I don't think that anybody besides you interpreted my original post as describing such a "freaky atmosphere." My point is that the public in those places is generally more sensitive to design than the public in Houston - you're much more likely to hear people criticizing the design of a new building there than here. Like you said, it's a more mature city (though not larger).

As for the BSA, it's the largest branch of the AIA, a major nexus in the world of architectural thought, with prestigious awards given nationally, a prestigious magazine, etc. In other words, not JUST an organization of architects - although yes, Houston 19514, it technically is an "organization of architects," and yes, Houston does too have an organization of architects of its very own.

This, by the way, is what I hate about this forum - people going out of their way to start arguments over nitpicky interpretations of what another person said, doing everything they can to avoid seeing the basic point, splitting hairs, etc. I suppose they get a kick out of it whenever they can derail a serious discussion, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just childish.

Sorry man, but it is you who is being defensive and childish. I just asked some questions out of genuine curiosity, and instead of just sharing your thoughts and knowledge, you had to go on the attack. Not every question is an attack or attempt to start an argument. Asking questions is how we learn. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted; but, seriously, I tried to explain that to you in my second post in this conversation when I told you I was not trying to be antagonistic.

I was just trying to be a little humorous by tweaking you on the "people talking about architecture all the time" thing. But for the record you did indeed say "you will hear such conversations all the time", and also "these kinds of conversations were floating around constantly." (Sorry if some might have taken you at your word.)

My point about the BSA, since you obviously missed it, was that it is the AIA branch for the Boston area. Quite a different thing from the Rice Design Alliance. I did not say or imply that the RDA was in any way better than or equal to the BSA. They are totally different animals, thus NOT comparable. The mere existence of the RDA, and its fairly active schedule indicates that there might be more interest in architecture and design in Houston than you are willing to give it credit for. I asked out of curiosity if there was an organization comparable to the RDA. As I just explained, the BSA is not comparable. Houston, too, has a local AIA organization, which is comparable to the BSA; Again, that is not to say or imply that it is as good as or as big as or as world-renowned as the BSA.

As to Houston not being a larger city, yes we all know that the city of Houston is larger than the city of Boston. But we also know that this forum generally speaks of metro areas. Indeed, this entire discussion has been about the Boston metro area as if it was all "Boston." (See, e.g., the fact that your "Boston" experiences took place in the suburbs.) Talk about splitting hairs...

As to trying to derail a serious discussion, take a look in the mirror. As I said earlier, I asked serious questions and was answered with attacks, wild overstatements and non-answers. I have attempted on a couple of occasions to steer it back to the real point of the thread. To no avail with you.

No, it's an indicator. The existence of a TV critic at the Chronicle is not what caused Houstonians to start watching TV. Leon Hale's columns did not cause Houstonians to become nostalgic about the countryside - they serve that nostalgia. The Chronicle is a business - they are going to do what sells the most newspapers.

And you don't think that the appearance of regular columns in the newspaper with quality, well-written reviews of architecture and design could spur some more interest in design and architecture??? If that is really the case, then why would we give a damn if the Chron ever ran an article about architecture or design? Is it just some badge of honor to make us feel mature, like Boston? ;-)

[H-Town Man]

Sorry man, but it is you who is being defensive and childish. I just asked some questions out of genuine curiosity, and instead of just sharing your thoughts and knowledge, you had to go on the attack. Not every question is an attack or attempt to start an argument. Asking questions is how we learn. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted; but, seriously, I tried to explain that to you in my second post in this conversation when I told you I was not trying to be antagonistic.

I was just trying to be a little humorous by tweaking you on the "people talking about architecture all the time" thing. But for the record you did indeed say "you will hear such conversations all the time", and also "these kinds of conversations were floating around constantly." (Sorry if some might have taken you at your word.)

My point about the BSA, since you obviously missed it, was that it is the AIA branch for the Boston area. Quite a different thing from the Rice Design Alliance. I did not say or imply that the RDA was in any way better than or equal to the BSA. They are totally different animals, thus NOT comparable. The mere existence of the RDA, and its fairly active schedule indicates that there might be more interest in architecture and design in Houston than you are willing to give it credit for. I asked out of curiosity if there was an organization comparable to the RDA. As I just explained, the BSA is not comparable. Houston, too, has a local AIA organization, which is comparable to the BSA; Again, that is not to say or imply that it is as good as or as big as or as world-renowned as the BSA.

As to Houston not being a larger city, yes we all know that the city of Houston is larger than the city of Boston. But we also know that this forum generally speaks of metro areas. Indeed, this entire discussion has been about the Boston metro area as if it was all "Boston." (See, e.g., the fact that your "Boston" experiences took place in the suburbs.) Talk about splitting hairs...

As to trying to derail a serious discussion, take a look in the mirror. As I said earlier, I asked serious questions and was answered with attacks, wild overstatements and non-answers. I have attempted on a couple of occasions to steer it back to the real point of the thread. To no avail with you.

And you don't think that the appearance of regular columns in the newspaper with quality, well-written reviews of architecture and design could spur some more interest in design and architecture??? If that is really the case, then why would we give a damn if the Chron ever ran an article about architecture or design? Is it just some badge of honor to make us feel mature, like Boston? ;-)

I guess I have to let you have the last word... at the rate these posts are increasing, we'll soon be writing 1,000 word essays. You win. The people of Houston are just as enthusiastic about architecture as the people of Boston, Chicago, and New York. There is no explanation for why the Chronicle does not have an architecture critic, other than that they are a bad newspaper. Discussion over.

[Houston19514]

I guess I have to let you have the last word... at the rate these posts are increasing, we'll soon be writing 1,000 word essays. You win. The people of Houston are just as enthusiastic about architecture as the people of Boston, Chicago, and New York. There is no explanation for why the Chronicle does not have an architecture critic, other than that they are a bad newspaper. Discussion over.

Note to self (and others interested in self-preservation): Don't ask H-Town Man any questions, Ever!

[Subdude]

I know you don't like the new courthouse, and I'm not sure what other major projects you think are of low quality, but architecture, good and bad, applies to minor projects as well and in that category, I think Houston is seeing some good work. Some of the projects at UH are quite good, IMO. And in the more major category, 2727 Kirby appears quite good (assuming it really is under construction). I think the proposed Intermodal Terminal looks pretty exciting. Some of the new buildings in the Medical Center have been good.

I think there is a tendency for people (and it seems to apply especially to Houstonians) is to focus only on the bad stuff at home and only on the good stuff away from home. Part of that is the fact that you see all the bad stuff at home, but mostly just the good stuff from out of town, so we tend to forget that those other towns have plenty of bad and mediocre architecture too.

You make some very valid points. There are a number of small projects that are very nice in Houston, and some larger ones like 2727 Kirby as you pointed out. For instance there have been articles about Houston's large number of "tin can" houses. But I think it is also natural, if perhaps somewhat unfair, to focus on the larger, more visible projects when assessing architectural quality. There aren't many projects of the scope of, say, the Reliant building, so I want each one to be world-class.

[TxDave]

Can anything be done to change that and encourage more public interest in architecture in Houston?

Great question!

In the last half century Houston has developed into highly refined center for performing and visual arts.

There is no reason it cannot do the same for quality architectural development.

'How?' is a very good question, but the precedent is there.

[TheNiche]

boston architecture -- 24,400,000 hits

houston architecture -- 2,760,000 hits

You know, I've got to wonder the degree to which people are interested in architecture as opposed to people that are interested in history. They are admittedly related, but are still seperate subjects. Boston in particular is probably a bad place to sample from on account of its connection to early American history.

And I tend to agree that our not having an architecture critic in the Chronicle is probably pretty closely linked to the Chronicle being such a cruddy paper.

[H-Town Man]

You know, I've got to wonder the degree to which people are interested in architecture as opposed to people that are interested in history. They are admittedly related, but are still seperate subjects. Boston in particular is probably a bad place to sample from on account of its connection to early American history.

And I tend to agree that our not having an architecture critic in the Chronicle is probably pretty closely linked to the Chronicle being such a cruddy paper.

My guess is that it owes to the fact that Boston is home to about a zillion universities, and thus has an academic culture that no city in America can really rival. Whereas Houston is more of an engineer's town, meaning less interest in the fine arts - see Peter Marzio on this phenomenon.

Also, Boston has always led the nation in aesthetic interests (though now supplanted by New York in many areas) - in the nineteenth century its many societies were the closest thing one could find to European aesthetic culture in America. There is a firmly entrenched aesthetic culture there, and leadership in those things changes a lot slower than population does. Talk to people in the cultural world - Boston is a center, while Houston is still very much on the frontier.

The Chronicle is a poor paper from a journalistic standpoint, but it is a business (and a successful one), and businesses know what the market demands. We have not had a full time book reviewer in years - not true of Boston. And where The Boston Globe has an 'Ideas' section, we have a 'Religion' section, which gives you some idea of cultural differences in the two places.

[Houston19514]

Whereas Houston is more of an engineer's town, meaning less interest in the fine arts - see Peter Marzio on this phenomenon.

You keep telling us that Dr. Marzio has made these comments on why Houston has "less interest in the fine arts". I wish you could provide a link. I have "Googled" and "Yahood" and "Ask.com'd" like crazy and cannot find anything of the sort.

I did find a very interesting clip of an interview he did with Texas Monthly magazine in which he discussed at some length the great depth and diversity of the arts scene in Houston (hardly the words of someone who thinks there is a lack of interest in the fine arts) and went on to discuss why that is not widely-known outside of Houston. He said Houston in general needs to do a better job of getting the word out about how great a place it is, arts included, and that Houston has never done a good job of selling itself. His theory as to "why", is that Houston is a "wholesale" town, not a "retail" town, therefore Houston just doesn't have the experience and the skill-set or perhaps even the inclination to do a "retail" type sales job. Very interesting thoughts and I think quite true.

Link to Marzio clips

[TxDave]

I love that this thread is actually debating Architecture!

Houston may not yet be a Boston (or other such established city), but many of its downtown skyscrapers create a credible steak in the ground for significant architecture.

It will probably be quite a while before Houston can produce such significant towers again, but what matters now is the infill projects closer to the ground that pull it together.

Houston really must stay cognizant of its architectural heritage and future to fully realize its potential as a center of world class design.

[H-Town Man]

You keep telling us that Dr. Marzio has made these comments on why Houston has "less interest in the fine arts". I wish you could provide a link.

Not everything someone says is on the internet. But since you seem so desperate to know, he once discussed in an interview, I forget where, about how if you look at the economic makeup of this state and the major universities here, it's mostly technical. He mentioned that there is only one university in the state where one can get a Ph.D. in art history (UT). Houston especially is a place where most of our heritage has been technical and industrial, hence less interest in the arts than in other cities (the wholesale vs. retail phenomenon contributes to this - a wholesale city will have fewer of the liberal arts majors who are most likely to be interested in things art-related).

I have "Googled" and "Yahood" and "Ask.com'd" like crazy and cannot find anything of the sort.

So that is how you spend your free time.