Buying house... stucco & moisture issues? Please advise!

[Yonkers]

Hi all,

I just had an inspection done today on a pre-foreclosure I am really close to buying. But I'm thinking of possibly backing out on moisture concerns due to the stucco exterior (stucco top, stone bottom).

According to the inspector it was not installed up to code. He says that at each corner/edge there should be flashing that sticks out visibly from the stucco .5-1 inch or so that allows the water to go away from the house. He showed me a spot (that I originally thought was installed improperly because it didn't look good) that was done right. But the rest of the house you could not see any flashing and he says the water might seep into the stucco without it.

He had a hand held moisture detector (Tramex) that he ran along the base boards and sheetrock and in about 60% of the exterior walls it would be in the yellow (elevated) and in some walls it would beep red. If I looked on the exterior (where the moisture was detected) I could see light green mildew on some of the stone.

My question is... is this potentially a big issue or possibly an easy fix? If this is something I'll keep on having to deal with then I would skip. If this is a matter of getting flashing redone/gutters installed then I would possibly do it. If I go forward with this I plan to get a stucco inspection and also a mold inspection done. I'm $1k into the inspections already but would pay for more if it was worth it. It is a million dollar property that I'm getting cheap with a lot of built-in equity. So it's very tempting. But my son has asthma and I would never submit my family to any health issues over mold/mildew.

Please give me some advice.

Thank you!

Michael

[TexasVines]

Hi all,

I just had an inspection done today on a pre-foreclosure I am really close to buying. But I'm thinking of possibly backing out on moisture concerns due to the stucco exterior (stucco top, stone bottom).

According to the inspector it was not installed up to code. He says that at each corner/edge there should be flashing that sticks out visibly from the stucco .5-1 inch or so that allows the water to go away from the house. He showed me a spot (that I originally thought was installed improperly because it didn't look good) that was done right. But the rest of the house you could not see any flashing and he says the water might seep into the stucco without it.

He had a hand held moisture detector (Tramex) that he ran along the base boards and sheetrock and in about 60% of the exterior walls it would be in the yellow (elevated) and in some walls it would beep red. If I looked on the exterior (where the moisture was detected) I could see light green mildew on some of the stone.

My question is... is this potentially a big issue or possibly an easy fix? If this is something I'll keep on having to deal with then I would skip. If this is a matter of getting flashing redone/gutters installed then I would possibly do it. If I go forward with this I plan to get a stucco inspection and also a mold inspection done. I'm $1k into the inspections already but would pay for more if it was worth it. It is a million dollar property that I'm getting cheap with a lot of built-in equity. So it's very tempting. But my son has asthma and I would never submit my family to any health issues over mold/mildew.

Please give me some advice.

Thank you!

Michael

cheap stucco done improperly and Houston = massive issues

[musicman]

My question is... is this potentially a big issue or possibly an easy fix? If this is something I'll keep on having to deal with then I would skip. If this is a matter of getting flashing redone/gutters installed then I would possibly do it. If I go forward with this I plan to get a stucco inspection and also a mold inspection done. I'm $1k into the inspections already but would pay for more if it was worth it. It is a million dollar property that I'm getting cheap with a lot of built-in equity. So it's very tempting. But my son has asthma and I would never submit my family to any health issues over mold/mildew.

Please give me some advice.

Thank you!

Michael

this is a big issue that can't be fixed cheaply. it requires more than just geting flashing redone/gutters installed because water is in the walls now. if your child has asthma, you're just asking for problems.

[sowanome]

In home inspections with the usage of the Tramex tool, it's typical for there to be a small amount of moisture in stucco. The key to this issue is why the moisture exists and to what amount, however based on what you're describing It sounds like there is a large amount which is no good at all...For example, A moisture spot that we once found in our stucco was about 4 x 4 feet and was caused by a crack in the stucco due to the home settling.

To fix this, we simply had to have the crack sealed, but if we had to replace the stucco.... It would have cost more than $20k

[Yonkers]

Thank you for the replies so far.

For those that are familiar with the Tramex tool, what exactly does a Yellow/Elevated reading mean? How much water are we talking about that would register Yellow? The reading is at the baseboard/wood level and Green at the sheetrock. From the outside, the stucco stops at around 3 ft above ground and then stone on down. Does that mean the water has entered through the stucco and seeped down towards the bottom behind the stone? To me that sounds like I'd have to possibly pull the stone out to see if there are any issues.

I was thinking of paying for a stucco inspector as well as a mold inspector. If this is a lost cause in terms of cost of fixing it, then I won't bother.

Also, all builders are supposed to get a 10 year warranty on structure, etc, correct? Would something like this be covered?

Edit: And I didn't realize fixing stucco was so expensive!

[flipper]

Run, don't walk to your next prospect.

flipper

[BryanS]

Edit: And I didn't realize fixing stucco was so expensive!

The only fix for stucco is to rip it off, and replace it with cement board/hardi plank. Get an estimate on that.

[Yonkers]

Run, don't walk to your next prospect.

flipper

I'm kind of leaning that way. But I'm having a hard time because I'm buying into $200k of equity, conservatively.

The only fix for stucco is to rip it off, and replace it with cement board/hardi plank. Get an estimate on that.

No love for the stucco, eh? Is that just for EIFS or 'real' stucco too? For the record, I'm not even sure what type the house has.

[rbarz]

Run, don't walk to your next prospect.

flipper

flipper what's wrong? You want to swoop into the deal ?

If the discount is enough to justify the potential repairs then what is the problem? Of course $200k on a million is not that much of a discount if repairs are substantial.

Some banks will deal with you so you might try to show them the inspections and renegotiate your price. The only banks that I have seen renegotiate seem to hint at it in their counter-offer addendums, i.e. they mention something about inspections.

[Yonkers]

flipper what's wrong? You want to swoop into the deal ?

If the discount is enough to justify the potential repairs then what is the problem? Of course $200k on a million is not that much of a discount if repairs are substantial.

Some banks will deal with you so you might try to show them the inspections and renegotiate your price. The only banks that I have seen renegotiate seem to hint at it in their counter-offer addendums, i.e. they mention something about inspections.

My main concern is if it is something that can be remedied... and remedied permanently. Since I will be living there it is more of a home than an investment (though that plays a big part). If it takes $50k to fix I'd still come out ahead, but I'd do it only if I knew it was a real fix... if that is indeed possible with stucco, etc.

I'm trying to make sure I don't scare myself away with horror stories. And I don't want to convince myself into it based on just money and emotion. I'm trying to be pragmatic about it.

Thanks for the response.

[flipper]

Equity is just a number on a spreadsheet unless you have a house you can sell.

You also need to remember that you will have to disclose these issues whenever you go to sell. How much of a discount are you willing to give when you sell because of the houses previous problems?

Move on to the next one and save yourself the headache.

flipper

[Yonkers]

How much of a discount are you willing to give when you sell because of the houses previous problems?

Very good point. Thanks.

[cgallagher]

Yonkers,

Is the stone that you're referring to real stone or thin stone veneers? If they are thin veneers, then you won't need flashing. Real stone, you will. You can tell real stone, because it will sit out about 3-4" further than the stucco. If they are thin veneers, they should only stick out about 1.5".

Don't bother with another inspector. I would find a place on the inside of the home and cut a piece of sheetrock and investigate the high moisture content. If the stucco is allowing water to leach in, you will see water damage and/or mildew especially on the exterior plywood. It is really the only way you will find out for sure.

[Yonkers]

Yonkers,

Is the stone that you're referring to real stone or thin stone veneers? If they are thin veneers, then you won't need flashing. Real stone, you will. You can tell real stone, because it will sit out about 3-4" further than the stucco. If they are thin veneers, they should only stick out about 1.5".

Don't bother with another inspector. I would find a place on the inside of the home and cut a piece of sheetrock and investigate the high moisture content. If the stucco is allowing water to leach in, you will see water damage and/or mildew especially on the exterior plywood. It is really the only way you will find out for sure.

The front is stone from the bottom up now that I look at the picture again. I'm not sure if it's real stone or veneers but from your description and looking at the picture it looks like it is veneers. Why would I not need flashing with the veneers? They don't stick out far enough to catch water?

Front of Home

The room on the left is the dining room and the entire front base board registers Red on the Tremax moisture detector. From the outside, if I look down all the way at the bottom of the stone, right where it meets the mulch, I can see some green mildew. The room on the right is the study and it shows Green and Yellow across the front and only Red in one spot.

Back of Home

Here is the back. If you see the left near the meter, there is some water damage there and I assume that is from the water cascading down from the roof above.

I understand what you're saying about choosing a high level area and just cutting it open to take a look to see how much moisture there really is and if there is any mold. Unfortunately, I can't do that until I own the home and I don't want to own it until I know. Hahah. Catch 22. That's why I was thinking of getting a mold/stucco inspector out there, but that's another $1k. I'm also thinking of just walking away.

Thanks for the advice.

[Dan the Man]

Walk away. This house sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

[Yonkers]

Walk away. This house sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

Yeah. I'm beginning to feel that way too.

However, HCAD appraisal at $1.1mil. My comps show conservatively $800-850k in this down market. Buying for $575k (plus all these possible repairs). So it looks really attractive, though I can't tell for sure unless I know if there is any water damage/mold. There might not be and yet again there might be a lot.

But like flipper said, I'd take a hit on selling it too so it might not be worth it.

Decisions, decisions. Each opinion on this forum helps though. So thanks.

[rbarz]

Yeah. I'm beginning to feel that way too.

However, HCAD appraisal at $1.1mil. My comps show conservatively $800-850k in this down market. Buying for $575k (plus all these possible repairs). So it looks really attractive, though I can't tell for sure unless I know if there is any water damage/mold. There might not be and yet again there might be a lot.

But like flipper said, I'd take a hit on selling it too so it might not be worth it.

Decisions, decisions. Each opinion on this forum helps though. So thanks.

if you walk away, please pm me the address. I would like to take a look. thx.

[flipper]

flipper

[rbarz]

flipper

LOL... nice.

flipper, how many flips have you done that didn't feel like that at one time or another?

[cgallagher]

Why would I not need flashing with the veneers?

if I look down all the way at the bottom of the stone, right where it meets the mulch, I can see some green mildew.

I can't see your pictures. But I can tell you that the stone should not touch the mulch. There should be some slab exposure.

One way to tell if you have full stones or veneers, is to follow the stone to the bottom. If they sit on a concrete ledge that is part of the foundation, they are full stones. If they stick outside the foundation, they are likely thin veneers.

Full stones do not necessarily have to have flashing. There is an installation method that does not require it. The problem may be that there are no weep holes and the water is collecting behind the stone and does not have a place to escape. This is very easily fixed.

Did they take moisture readings about the stucco / stone line inside the home? If you are not getting any readings higher up, then you likely don't have a stucco problem and you won't be required to replace any of the stucco. (repair price just went wayyyy down). If you do, run like hell.

[flipper]

LOL... nice.

flipper, how many flips have you done that didn't feel like that at one time or another?

Good point. The one that is always the most annoying is the undisclosed termite damage. Easy enough to fix, but annoying.

fliipper

[Yonkers]

I can't see your pictures. But I can tell you that the stone should not touch the mulch. There should be some slab exposure.

One way to tell if you have full stones or veneers, is to follow the stone to the bottom. If they sit on a concrete ledge that is part of the foundation, they are full stones. If they stick outside the foundation, they are likely thin veneers.

Full stones do not necessarily have to have flashing. There is an installation method that does not require it. The problem may be that there are no weep holes and the water is collecting behind the stone and does not have a place to escape. This is very easily fixed.

Did they take moisture readings about the stucco / stone line inside the home? If you are not getting any readings higher up, then you likely don't have a stucco problem and you won't be required to replace any of the stucco. (repair price just went wayyyy down). If you do, run like hell.

Sorry this should work

Front of House

Back of House

As for the readings, it was mainly in the baseboards. I did do readings on the sheetrock right above the baseboard and only in a few places can I recall an elevated reading. And consider that stone is 3 feet high, the sheetrock reading I did would have had stone on the other side. I didn't do any readings 3 ft off the ground where the stone/stucco line would be.

There are weep holes on the outside though. Only one place did the inspector suggest we put new weep holes and that is the ledge over the study window, which you can see from the first picture.

As for the front, the mulch does go all the way up so maybe that's part of the problem. Plus the sprinkler head right at that area is broken according to the inspector, which could also have contributed.

So conflicted. Hahah.

[cgallagher]

That's real stone. I disagree that you should see flashing on top. I bet there is flashing but it is hidden by the decorative stone ledge that sits on top of the stone skirt. If there isn't flashing, the damage would be extensive and you would not need a moisture reader. Were there weep holes every 1-2 feet cut in the bottom of the stone? Can you take the end of a coat hanger and stick it up through the weeps holes so that you can feel the space behind?

It looks like this home is less than 10 years old. Was this home built in a city where it would have been subject to municipal inspections? Did the builder use any 3rd party inspectors? Any inspector would have caught a flashing problem before the stucco or stone went on. But they probably won't catch the weep holes.

The problem is coming from the bottom up, not the top down. It would be very easy for a mason to remove a couple of those stones to check out behind, then put them back.

That is a very nice home. It's worth a shot.

[Yonkers]

So you're saying if there was a stucco issue the moisture detector would have found something higher up on the wall? So you think it's possibly something with the weep holes not allowing water to escape?

As to the flashing, what the inspector was referring to was the roof ledges where they meet the walls. I don't think he was referring specifically to the stone facade. I marked the picture to show what I mean. The circle is where there is currently some flashing extending out from the stucco. You can't see it but that's the type of roof edge he's talking about. I also marked a roof edge from a picture of the back. Do you agree?

Front House - Marked

And something else I originally didn't want to bring up as to not over complicate things. But if you look at this second picture you can see where I marked an upstairs bathroom. I had a septic system inspector come out and he turned on all the water to get it flowing through septic tank. Well, he forgot to turn the tub off and it overflowed. I was in the kitchen below and saw water drip through the ceiling below the tub. And from outside the house I could see the water flowing out of the weep holes all along that wall. That incident partially pushed me over the edge regarding this. Already had moisture issues and this idiot goes and overflows the tub.

But my question from this incident is, how are 2nd floor bathrooms usually sealed? If the tub overflowed, does it normally go right down? If the floor is sealed properly then wouldn't the water just flow across the tile and then out into the bedroom... instead of down? And also, how is the inside wall sealed that the water from the tub would be able to reach the weep holes outside at the bottom?

Back House - Marked

I didn't want to complicate my question, but seeing as how you're so knowledgeable I took a stab. Haha.

Thanks for any advice.

[cgallagher]

So you're saying if there was a stucco issue the moisture detector would have found something higher up on the wall? So you think it's possibly something with the weep holes not allowing water to escape?

As to the flashing, what the inspector was referring to was the roof ledges where they meet the walls. I don't think he was referring specifically to the stone facade. I marked the picture to show what I mean. The circle is where there is currently some flashing extending out from the stucco. You can't see it but that's the type of roof edge he's talking about. I also marked a roof edge from a picture of the back. Do you agree?

Front House - Marked

And something else I originally didn't want to bring up as to not over complicate things. But if you look at this second picture you can see where I marked an upstairs bathroom. I had a septic system inspector come out and he turned on all the water to get it flowing through septic tank. Well, he forgot to turn the tub off and it overflowed. I was in the kitchen below and saw water drip through the ceiling below the tub. And from outside the house I could see the water flowing out of the weep holes all along that wall. That incident partially pushed me over the edge regarding this. Already had moisture issues and this idiot goes and overflows the tub.

But my question from this incident is, how are 2nd floor bathrooms usually sealed? If the tub overflowed, does it normally go right down? If the floor is sealed properly then wouldn't the water just flow across the tile and then out into the bedroom... instead of down? And also, how is the inside wall sealed that the water from the tub would be able to reach the weep holes outside at the bottom?

Back House - Marked

I didn't want to complicate my question, but seeing as how you're so knowledgeable I took a stab. Haha.

Thanks for any advice.

Yes, it could be as simple as weep holes, or it could be something more complicated.

As for the picture you show, I can't see anything wrong with that. But common sense says: if that area is leaking, the water would wet the exterior plywood, which would wet the insulation, which would wet the sheetrock, which would show a mark on the sheetrock. We've had a Cat 2 hurricane and a tropical storm come through recently, if there is a leak, you would see it start towards the top of the wall and get worse gradually as it gets closer to the bottom. You would probably see peeling tape and bubbles in the paint. Look for recent paint behind that flashing.

Now for the water incident from your absent minded inspector. Once the water enters into the flooring cavity, it will travel where gravity takes it. It can travel down a wire, or the gradual slope in the floor, or accross a truss and can come out anywhere. The way the exterior waterproofing is layed, it will allow for water to get to the exterior and outside the stone. Unusual, but not impossible.

[Yonkers]

Thank you very much for the replies. It has been a great help.

I don't want to drop out of this if I'm possibly just overblowing things. If I do go forward I would make sure it's going to work out. Would you suggest I get any sort of specific inspection done for final due diligence? Like a stucco or mold inspection? I've been quoted $1k to get both done. And if you think I should get more inspections, do you do that sort of work or do you know of someone good?

Thanks again very much!

[flipper]

Maybe you could pay a builder or two on this forum (or anywhere) to come out and give you their opinion. Cost less, and there's no formal report to disclose in the future...

flipper

[Yonkers]

Maybe you could pay a builder or two on this forum (or anywhere) to come out and give you their opinion. Cost less, and there's no formal report to disclose in the future...

flipper

I wouldn't mind that. As long as they had the knowledge and tools to see not only superficially, but possibly test deeper. Just mainly concerned about hidden mold etc.

Also regarding disclosures, I thought you only have to disclose something if it is a current, existing issue. Do you have to disclose problems that have been remediated too?

[flipper]

I wouldn't mind that. As long as they had the knowledge and tools to see not only superficially, but possibly test deeper. Just mainly concerned about hidden mold etc.

Also regarding disclosures, I thought you only have to disclose something if it is a current, existing issue. Do you have to disclose problems that have been remediated too?

I'm attaching a blank sellers disclosure.

flipper

Sellers_Disclosure_Blank.pdf

[Yonkers]

Ah ok. So Section 5 of that form would cover if there was mold and it got remediated. What section would cover if there was just possible water damage (no mold) and that got fixed? Like if stucco need to be fixed or flashing or gutters added?

Thanks.