Future Houston- What will she look like?

[CDeb]

Commuter rail is also good because it is run on weekends. P&R isn't.

And building a rail line is the most cost effective solution to rectifying this?

[musicman]

For now I prefer to focus on a more compact mass-transit footprint that is more likely to spur development.

Development is so bad right now i can understand your point.

[Trae]

And building a rail line is the most cost effective solution to rectifying this?

Just another bullet point to the list.

[TheNiche]

Commuter rail is also good because it is run on weekends. P&R isn't.

Ummm...Trae...could you provide a link to the schedule of the commuter rail that we don't have?

That Southwest Line is suppose to go to at least Missouri City, so not too far away from Sugar Land.

No, (in spite of what a particular METRO exec. has been telling me, personally, for years) it most certainly is not. The tracks are too heavily used for freight operations. Union Pacific has denied their use for commuter rail. Any service to Fort Bend County would have to be along FM 521 (Almeda Rd.), with the route veering west to the sparsely-populated Thompsons/Smith Lake area south of Rosenberg.

[Trae]

Ummm...Trae...could you provide a link to the schedule of the commuter rail that we don't have?

Commuter Rail is almost always run on weekends (at least Saturdays) in cities that have it. Houston would be no different. It is harder to run P&R on the weekends, as no one works Downtown (at least not like the work week). Commuter Rail, with stations at key points (let me just have wishful thinking and pretend it is placed on I-10), you have Grand Parkway, Highway 6, Memorial City, the Marq* E area, then onto Downtown. With the right schedule, people will use it to get to those areas during the weekend. Especially the Memorial City/City Centre, and Marq*E areas.

[TheNiche]

Commuter Rail is almost always run on weekends (at least Saturdays) in cities that have it. Houston would be no different. It is harder to run P&R on the weekends, as no one works Downtown (at least not like the work week). Commuter Rail, with stations at key points (let me just have wishful thinking and pretend it is placed on I-10), you have Grand Parkway, Highway 6, Memorial City, the Marq* E area, then onto Downtown. With the right schedule, people will use it to get to those areas during the weekend. Especially the Memorial City/City Centre, and Marq*E areas.

You have no evidence that they would run on weekends, the destinations you suggest are not even close to any existing or proposed trackage, and since the most likely routes would not have airport connections, it doesn't really make a very compelling case.

Moreover, weekend freeway congestion is minimal and origin and destination points for trips are far more decentralized and chaotic. With lower weekend ridership, there would be fewer passengers around which to spread high fixed costs, and it would very easily get to the point that a weekend commuter rail service would be more expensive per passenger mile (at taxpayer expense) than would for people just to use their own vehicles (at their own expense). If other cities are doing it, perhaps they should reconsider.

In fact, those cities would be well-advised to take a page from our playbook and implement P&R bus service to large events, just like we do with the HLS&R and various other events. And that demonstrates the flexible nature of P&R over commuter rail, in that the same lots can be utilized for service to recreational destinations on the weekends as are used for workplace destinations on weekdays.

[Trae]

You have no evidence that they would run on weekends, the destinations you suggest are not even close to any existing or proposed trackage, and since the most likely routes would not have airport connections, it doesn't really make a very compelling case.

I don't, you're right. I'm just assuming. And yes, I know that. IF you read my post, I said I'm just going to have wishful thinking and pretend I-10 had a commuter rail in the middle instead of a tollway.

Moreover, weekend freeway congestion is minimal and origin and destination points for trips are far more decentralized and chaotic. With lower weekend ridership, there would be fewer passengers around which to spread high fixed costs, and it would very easily get to the point that a weekend commuter rail service would be more expensive per passenger mile (at taxpayer expense) than would for people just to use their own vehicles (at their own expense). If other cities are doing it, perhaps they should reconsider.

I don't know about you, but there is a ton of weekend traffic. Sometimes it flows, but it does get bumper to bumper. Weekend ridership would obviously be lower than weekday ridership, but who is to say how low it would get? You never know.

But it would normally just be for Saturday. I don't think many commuter rail services operate on Sunday. Saturday ridership levels won't be low I don't think. Always something to do in the city.

In fact, those cities would be well-advised to take a page from our playbook and implement P&R bus service to large events, just like we do with the HLS&R and various other events. And that demonstrates the flexible nature of P&R over commuter rail, in that the same lots can be utilized for service to recreational destinations on the weekends as are used for workplace destinations on weekdays.

Uh...commuter rail could be used in the exact same way for those event. In fact, a commuter rail train can carry a lot more passengers than many buses would. HOV's are closed on the weekends, too, so we have to use freeways and side roads.

[musicman]

Uh...commuter rail could be used in the exact same way for those event. HOV's are closed on the weekends, too, so we have to use freeways and side roads.

the walk from the nearest freight rail tracks to the dome would be a big one. it's not like they can leave you in the parking lot ala P&R.

since when are HOVs closed on the weekends? last time i went to austin, i took the i-10 one coming in to town on sunday afternoon. the gulf freeway one used to be open too for galveston traffic.

[TheNiche]

I don't know about you, but there is a ton of weekend traffic. Sometimes it flows, but it does get bumper to bumper. Weekend ridership would obviously be lower than weekday ridership, but who is to say how low it would get? You never know.

But it would normally just be for Saturday. I don't think many commuter rail services operate on Sunday. Saturday ridership levels won't be low I don't think. Always something to do in the city.

Uh...commuter rail could be used in the exact same way for those event. In fact, a commuter rail train can carry a lot more passengers than many buses would. HOV's are closed on the weekends, too, so we have to use freeways and side roads.

I sometimes get stuck in weekend congestion briefly on the Gulf Freeway or on the Pierce Elevated, or where there is construction. Also at the Bolivar Ferry. Otherwise, I never have any weekend problems on freeways. And it doesn't matter that HOVs are closed when the main lanes aren't congested.

The LRT system serving Reliant Park provides insufficient capacity to handle big events as it is. I'm not sure that funneling people onto it from commuter trains is a good solution.

[Trae]

the walk from the nearest freight rail tracks to the dome would be a big one. it's not like they can leave you in the parking lot ala P&R.

since when are HOVs closed on the weekends? last time i went to austin, i took the i-10 one coming in to town on sunday afternoon. the gulf freeway one used to be open too for galveston traffic.

How hard would it be to take the Red Line to the Reliant Station? Not hard at all. The South Fannin Station would be a big transfer point. And I-10 is the only HOV lane that I know of that is open on the weekends.

I sometimes get stuck in weekend congestion briefly on the Gulf Freeway or on the Pierce Elevated, or where there is construction. Also at the Bolivar Ferry. Otherwise, I never have any weekend problems on freeways. And it doesn't matter that HOVs are closed when the main lanes aren't congested.

That's nice. If some people want to drive in, let them. But if there is an option to take commuter rail down the middle of I-10 (just saying), then I bet you anything people would use it to go into town.

It is harder to setup P&R on the weekends, than it would be to setup commuter rail on the weekends.

And if the mainlanes aren't congested, who the hell is going to use the Katy Tollway? Did they only build that thing for rush hour traffic?

The LRT system serving Reliant Park provides insufficient capacity to handle big events as it is. I'm not sure that funneling people onto it from commuter trains is a good solution.

More trains (so more frequent service) would help.

[TheNiche]

That's nice. If some people want to drive in, let them. But if there is an option to take commuter rail down the middle of I-10 (just saying), then I bet you anything people would use it to go into town.

It is harder to setup P&R on the weekends, than it would be to setup commuter rail on the weekends.

And if the mainlanes aren't congested, who the hell is going to use the Katy Tollway? Did they only build that thing for rush hour traffic?

And if METRO provided subsidized taxi service, I'm sure people would take that, too. That doesn't mean that they ought to.

It is harder to setup P&R on the weekends, than it would be to setup commuter rail on the weekends.

No. That's ridiculous.

Did they only build that thing for rush hour traffic?

Yes.

More trains (so more frequent service) would help.

So would having larger downtown blocks (or subway) to accomodate longer trains or grade seperations at major intersections so as not to interfere with vehicle traffic. But if Grandma had a.........

[TJones]

I think in about 100 years we will have a total "mag-lev" highway system where you just punch in the destination on your GPS and away you go. You won't get to pick your own parking either, but it WILL be the best available parking space at the time of arrival, in conjunction to where your destination is.

There will be some of us that will HAVE to be able to drive their "fossil fuel" using vehicles and be forced to drive elsewhere or on alternative routes.

Edited June 17, 2008 by TJones

[musicman]

How hard would it be to take the Red Line to the Reliant Station? Not hard at all. The South Fannin Station would be a big transfer point.

it could be an eventual transfer point but a change in infrastructure would to facilitate passengers would sure help.

And I-10 is the only HOV lane that I know of that is open on the weekends.

ah ok so HOVs aren't closed on the weekends.

[N Judah]

Development is so bad right now i can understand your point.

It is not bad, but it could always get better. I'd rather have the poster "marc" move in-town and commute to his teaching job via LRT/biking/walking instead of being stuck out in Copperfield and spending half an hour commuting to a park and ride and then riding an hour and a half on the bus to get to his destination. It's better for him and it's better for the in-town neighborhoods. That's my perspective, anyway.

[musicman]

I'd rather have the poster "marc" move in-town and commute to his teaching job via LRT/biking/walking instead of being stuck out in Copperfield and spending half an hour commuting to a park and ride and then riding an hour and a half on the bus to get to his destination. It's better for him and it's better for the in-town neighborhoods.

how do you get to work?

[N Judah]

how do you get to work?

What difference does it make? I take the bus to get to work. (And I walk home.)

Having said that, at present moment I don't live in the Houston area so who knows how I'll get around in several weeks when I am back. I will probably drive. I have only ever used a car when I have lived in Houston.

Edited June 19, 2008 by N Judah

[musicman]

Having said that, at present moment I don't live in the Houston area so who knows how I'll get around in several weeks when I am back. I will probably drive. I have only ever used a car when I have lived in Houston.

the do as i say not as i do syndrome.

[N Judah]

the do as i say not as i do syndrome.

Oh good, for a sec there I thought you were making an ad hom 'argument.'

Anyway, all I was "doing" was agitating for more effective transit in-town. When i get back I will drive everywhere, which is the opposite of what I do when not in Houston. I hope Marc does the same until H-town gets serious about transit (2012 at the absolute earliest, at which point other cities will be even further ahead). A better option would be to stick it out in L.A., based upon what he's said his options and preferences are.

Edited June 20, 2008 by N Judah

[musicman]

Anyway, all I was "doing" was agitating for more effective transit in-town. When i get back I will drive everywhere, which is the opposite of what I do when not in Houston. I hope Marc does the same until H-town gets serious about transit (2012 at the absolute earliest, at which point other cities will be even further ahead). A better option would be to stick it out in L.A., based upon what he's said his options and preferences are.

i'm not sure your "it's better for him" argument was an effective means to promote mass transit.

[N Judah]

I meant it's better for him given his stated preferences. He asked how Houston's mass transit would be conducive for him to live in UT/DT and commute to private schools. The answer is that it's probably not really conducive (at least relative to his existing L.A. commute), but it should be. And a Copperfield commute into town would be even worse. I think Houston needs better mass transit. By the time things get rolling in 2012 other cities will be even farther ahead.

Edited June 20, 2008 by N Judah

[TheNiche]

I think Houston needs better mass transit. By the time things get rolling in 2012 other cities will be even farther ahead.

Yeah, cuz Houston is just writing in pain right now! Grinding to a halt. We're hemhorraging jobs and people. We're losing out to other cities. And [gasp] city-to-city comparisons are...less enjoyable.

Dude. Seriously. Sometimes the winning option that gets your city farther ahead is a no-build option. Sometimes it is the unsexy option. Sometimes it is the inexpensive option. Sometimes it is the pragmatic option. Sometimes it is the half-assed option. But it is rarely the result of utterly myopic public policy or of misplaced civic pride, except as accident.

Edited June 23, 2008 by TheNiche

[N Judah]

The poster "marc" asked a question and I gave him an answer. Thanks for your analysis, but I don't think what you had to say was particularly relevant. This isn't to say you're wrong, but perhaps this just isn't the right thread to proffer opinions on what you think makes a great city.

Having said that, I don't think Houston has *ever* utilized the "no-build" option in any scenario, ever.

Edited June 21, 2008 by N Judah

[TheNiche]

Having said that, I don't think Houston has *ever* utilized the "no-build" option in any scenario, ever.

Then you aren't very familiar with the history of our fair city.

Monorail. Subway. A 24-lane West Loop. The Harrisburg Freeway. The Bay City Freeway. The Alvin Freeway. A second causeway to Galveston from the mainland. There are plenty of others; this is just from the top of mind.

[webdude]

Rail in this city is pretty sad right now. Everyone knows it, but you shouldn't point it out. Its like telling ppl with stupid kids that their kids are stupid, they are aware of it, but you don't just go around hurting their feelings by pointing it out all the time, some people treat this city like its their kid and its hurts. OK??

Edited June 23, 2008 by webdude

[N Judah]

Then you aren't very familiar with the history of our fair city.

Monorail. Subway. A 24-lane West Loop. The Harrisburg Freeway. The Bay City Freeway. The Alvin Freeway. A second causeway to Galveston from the mainland. There are plenty of others; this is just from the top of mind.

So we voted for those, but they weren't built?

Edited August 1, 2009 by editor

[lockmat]

An Atlanta journalist thinks HOUSTON is passing them in the 'future' of transportation...

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion...maned_0623.html

Until we address those issues, MARTA won't work and Atlanta won't work.

Edited June 23, 2008 by lockmat

[VelvetJ]

An Atlanta journalist thinks HOUSTON is passing them in the 'future' of transportation...

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion...maned_0623.html

That article was funny.

[memebag]

Future Houston will be an enclosed prison/mall. Stores and diversions will be arranged in radial patterns, making it easy to grant access to the best facilities to the wealthiest and least criminal citizens while keeping the poor and dangerous safely isolated. Most people will be born, live and die within a one mile circle, so transportation problems will largely be solved with escalators and moving sidewalks.

[ssullivan]

An Atlanta journalist thinks HOUSTON is passing them in the 'future' of transportation...

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion...maned_0623.html

In some ways he's right. Houston's current park and ride bus service provides a lot of the same service that MARTA's rail line does, only with buses instead of heavy rail. Houston's moving forward with light rail to get people around the city center; MARTA is stalled on several proposals, including the light rail "belt line" system, which would loop around the city's central neighborhoods, connecting points where a lot of people live, work, shop, and go for entertainment, that are currently woefully under served by MARTA. It's essentially a Houston-esque light rail system to link up the places the current MARTA rail lines don't go. It makes sense, and would run on a combination of dedicated right of way in old rail beds, and streets. Houston's also starting new express cross-town bus service (the new Signature Express lines), but Atlanta's not doing anything similar to upgrade its bus service. MARTA basically has no concrete plans that they are really pushing for funding on at the moment; there are a lot of ideas that have been tossed around for years, but no real action. And, with only a fraction of the Atlanta metro area participating in MARTA, the transit agency can't branch out into a lot of the faster growing suburbs.

MARTA does some things quite well. It's a very good system if your destination is downtown, midtown, the airport, office/shopping areas up north in Buckhead and along the Perimeter, or downtown Decatur, and your origin is a neighborhood with convenient access to MARTA. It's not convenient to use for trips to a lot of areas of the city though; most of the universities aren't on a rail line, and neither are the heart of the city's close-in residential neighborhoods that lie east of downtown. What MARTA needs is more support from the entire Atlanta metro area, and a clear plan of how to proceed with projects like the beltline light rail, better bus service, and further expansion of the existing heavy rail line.

[wernicke]

MARTA does some things quite well. It's a very good system if your destination is downtown, midtown, the airport, office/shopping areas up north in Buckhead and along the Perimeter, or downtown Decatur, and your origin is a neighborhood with convenient access to MARTA.

As the article above partly mentions, MARTA is screwed over by Atlanta's fragmented county make-up... Atlanta County Map. The different bureaucracies make it difficult to get things done.

Incidentally, this fragmented system has also doomed the city's county hospital system (in addition to rising healthcare costs in general)... as only 2/5 of the local counties are willing to fund the system, while the other 3 counties refuse to pay while their citizens take advantage. Grady has been running huge budget deficits (Grady Financial Crisis).

I guess Houston is lucky to exist within one county.

Edited June 24, 2008 by wernicke