Since when is a mall a "Town Center?"

[musicman]

Urban families do this too. The major exception being the Chilis part and the fact we trek to other neighborhoods to do this with families we really, really like. We don't have to be BFF's with the direct neighbors just because we live there. We don't have to even talk to our neighbors and its still socially acceptable and not an inch scandalous.

not sure driving to another neighborhood is being social. seems kinda snobbish.

[KatieDidIt]

not sure driving to another neighborhood is being social. seems kinda snobbish.

Nah, not if many of your neighbors are 65+ and many of your friends of 20 years live in various different parts of West Houston. We have a couple families in the hood we enjoy, we just don't ONLY socialize with them and its "ok" not to only socialize with them.

In burb life we got major crap for having parties and not inviting everyone on the street, just because they lived there. We had other parties that involved the nieghborhood, its just we felt every single party we had didn't have to involve them.

[woolie]

What a horrifying vision of the future. Oh, wait, these things already exist?

Here's what I think about the privatization of public space.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[Trae]

If I wanted to make any money, a Neiman Marcus, an Apple store, a La Madeline restaurant, and the like.

If the City will pay some significant price, they can be a tenant too, but I'm going to require that any library be stocked with Apple computers on the first floor and that all the books be out of sight. Otherwise, it makes the place appear too stodgy and uncool, elements that don't go well with money and pretension.

You ever seen Victoria Gardens in Rancho Cucamonga, California (Inland Empire)? If you haven't, you should probably look it up. Has a library, two Macy's, AMC Theaters, Apple Store, some other city buildings, etc., all in one development.

[memebag]

huh?

You said you don't need to protest. I'm asking if you need to see other people protest, or if you're OK spending all of your time in private space, protected by private security guards from public free speech.

[TheNiche]

Here's what I think about the privatization of public space.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

So mall developers are the U.S. Congress, now? How does that work?

[dalparadise]

Just a note -- Sugar Land Town Center includes mall-type stores, a Starbucks, restaurants and the like, but it also has a large hotel, Sugar Land City Hall, mixed-use apartment/office/retail buildings and a new 8-story headquarters for Minute Maid. Seems pretty much a "town center" to me.

There is a mall across the street from it for reference, though.

[musicman]

Nah, not if many of your neighbors are 65+

take advantage of the senior discount.

[woolie]

So mall developers are the U.S. Congress, now? How does that work?

You know exactly what I meant.

[TheNiche]

You know exactly what I meant.

You cited the U.S. Constitution in a manner in which it does not apply. I haven't a clue what you mean.

[RedScare]

You said you don't need to protest. I'm asking if you need to see other people protest, or if you're OK spending all of your time in private space, protected by private security guards from public free speech.

He watches protesters on TV, just like other freedom loving Americans.

Woolie (and memebag) does bring up a good point. Since all of the "township" of the Woodlands is run by the Woodlands Town Center now, does that mean that all Woodlands public space is now considered private for 1st Amendment purposes? I realize that no one ever protests there, but what if, say, a Democrat got elected in Montgomery County, and people suddenly felt the urge? Could Town Center security run them off in all of the parks the way they can in Town Center? Any Woodlands government scholars out there?

[memebag]

Woolie (and memebag) does bring up a good point. Since all of the "township" of the Woodlands is run by the Woodlands Town Center now, does that mean that all Woodlands public space is now considered private for 1st Amendment purposes? I realize that no one ever protests there, but what if, say, a Democrat got elected in Montgomery County, and people suddenly felt the urge? Could Town Center security run them off in all of the parks the way they can in Town Center? Any Woodlands government scholars out there?

I have a similar concern about Sugar Land's city hall. It's surrounded by private property. I assume I could protest there, but would I be allowed to drag my big papier-mache effigy of Tom Delay up N. Town Center Blvd? There's no way to access city hall without crossing private property or using private roads. Does anyone else see the irony in a shopping center that tries to cloak itself in a fantasy Americana past while being so blatantly un-American?

Google Map of Sugar Land City Hall

You know exactly what I meant.

I don't know what you meant. What did you mean?

[westguy76]

You said you don't need to protest. I'm asking if you need to see other people protest, or if you're OK spending all of your time in private space, protected by private security guards from public free speech.

This is where I go to see other people protest:

zombietime

that photoblog is as close as I want to get to protestors, and in some cases TOO close.

Who knows some of these *#!jobs probably live down the street from me in suburbia, and thats OK.

[memebag]

Who knows some of these *#!jobs probably live down the street from me in suburbia, and thats OK.

... as long as they don't interfere with shopping! SHOP! SHOP! SHOP!

[dalparadise]

I have a similar concern about Sugar Land's city hall. It's surrounded by private property. I assume I could protest there, but would I be allowed to drag my big papier-mache effigy of Tom Delay up N. Town Center Blvd? There's no way to access city hall without crossing private property or using private roads. Does anyone else see the irony in a shopping center that tries to cloak itself in a fantasy Americana past while being so blatantly un-American?

Google Map of Sugar Land City Hall

I don't know what you meant. What did you mean?

Assuming Tom Delay was still in office, why would you protest him at Sugar Land City Hall?

Another thing -- if Sugar Land Town Center's streets are all private property, why are there City of Sugar Land parking meters all along them? Are they enforceable?

[memebag]

Assuming Tom Delay was still in office, why would you protest him at Sugar Land City Hall?

Because I'm a nutjob, like all protestors.

Another thing -- if Sugar Land Town Center's streets are all private property, why are there City of Sugar Land parking meters all along them? Are they enforceable?

Are they operated by the city, or the mall?

[dalparadise]

Because I'm a nutjob, like all protestors.

Are they operated by the city, or the mall?

The mall would have no authority to ticket, so they must be city meters, or else they aren't enforceable.

Also, Sugar Land City Hall has very little connection with the federal government. Your protest would be silly.

[woolie]

Also, Sugar Land City Hall has very little connection with the federal government. Your protest would be silly.

Your right... better to be safe at home, watching a protest on tv. Maybe they'll even get to use their riot gear this time, wouldn't that be a treat. Or the mall will simply have them removed...

[memebag]

The mall would have no authority to ticket, so they must be city meters, or else they aren't enforceable.

I'll try to find out for sure today.

Also, Sugar Land City Hall has very little connection with the federal government. Your protest would be silly.

Of course it would. That's not the point.

[bachanon]

You said you don't need to protest. I'm asking if you need to see other people protest, or if you're OK spending all of your time in private space, protected by private security guards from public free speech.

i loathe protesters. shall we start another thread?

[memebag]

i loathe protesters. shall we start another thread?

You can if you like, but I think this is relevant to this topic.

You actually think there's nothing people should ever protest against? Why?

Or is this just a pose?

[bachanon]

perhaps one's life has to be at a level of simplicity or prosperity to have the time to stand on a public corner all day yelling at traffic. i don't enjoy being a nuisance to common folk. i can't think of any thing i hold dear that requires getting on a soapbox and trying to convince others in a public place. if i feel strongly enough about something i will not support the economics of it. i will not put my energies, votes, cash, influence towards those things. protests are for those who feel the sky is falling because of their pet issues.

i'd rather live in a community where protest occurs within the bounds of common courtesy and.......a master plan. i do not think that protests that kept the rules within, say, "town green park" would be banned. there are many public spaces that organizations can reserve for public events.

perhaps the town center concept needs to provide a "speaker's corner" like hyde park in london. i'd be all for that. if, as someone suggested, the mall is a form of a town center, those could use one too.

[woolie]

perhaps one's life has to be at a level of simplicity or prosperity to have the time to stand on a public corner all day yelling at traffic. i don't enjoy being a nuisance to common folk. i can't think of any thing i hold dear that requires getting on a soapbox and trying to convince others in a public place. if i feel strongly enough about something i will not support the economics of it. i will not put my energies, votes, cash, influence towards those things. protests are for those who feel the sky is falling because of their pet issues.

There's this thing. It's called human society. As social creatures we are more likely to take action when we interact with others who are taking similar actions, or are aware of their presence.

But I suppose in your perfect Woodlands World, every message is mediated by Clear Channel. No unapproved speech allowed in the commons, for fear of being a nuisance to common folk.

[liammclaren]

A "town center" occurs where a mall developer wants to forgo the cost of a roof over common areas and constant air conditioning, but at the same time needs to continue to draw an upscale clientele. By calling it a "town center", there remains sufficient pretension that white people will shop there.

Borderline racist, yet I totally agree

[RedScare]

i loathe protesters.

perhaps one's life has to be at a level of simplicity or prosperity to have the time to stand on a public corner all day yelling at traffic. i don't enjoy being a nuisance to common folk. i can't think of any thing i hold dear that requires getting on a soapbox and trying to convince others in a public place. if i feel strongly enough about something i will not support the economics of it. i will not put my energies, votes, cash, influence towards those things. protests are for those who feel the sky is falling because of their pet issues.

i'd rather live in a community where protest occurs within the bounds of common courtesy and.......a master plan. i do not think that protests that kept the rules within, say, "town green park" would be banned. there are many public spaces that organizations can reserve for public events.

perhaps the town center concept needs to provide a "speaker's corner" like hyde park in london. i'd be all for that. if, as someone suggested, the mall is a form of a town center, those could use one too.

Just a few of the Protesters I loathe:

Union workers who protested for 8 hour days and 40 hour weeks

Martin Luther King

Susan B. Anthony

John Hancock

Rosa Parks

The Little Rock Nine

Medgar Evers

Samuel Adams

George Washington

4 ne'er do wells in Greensboro.

[memebag]

perhaps one's life has to be at a level of simplicity or prosperity to have the time to stand on a public corner all day yelling at traffic. i don't enjoy being a nuisance to common folk. i can't think of any thing i hold dear that requires getting on a soapbox and trying to convince others in a public place. if i feel strongly enough about something i will not support the economics of it. i will not put my energies, votes, cash, influence towards those things. protests are for those who feel the sky is falling because of their pet issues.

i'd rather live in a community where protest occurs within the bounds of common courtesy and.......a master plan. i do not think that protests that kept the rules within, say, "town green park" would be banned. there are many public spaces that organizations can reserve for public events.

perhaps the town center concept needs to provide a "speaker's corner" like hyde park in london. i'd be all for that. if, as someone suggested, the mall is a form of a town center, those could use one too.

I'm gobsmacked. Wow. I assume you're aware of the similarities between your position and the Chinese Communist Party's. You were cool with their crackdown in Tiananmen Square back in 1989?

[bachanon]

the protests at tienanmen square and the civil rights movement are/were different worlds than we live in today.

sorry, i'm thinking of anti-rail and anti-war protests inside the loop that have caused me discomfort (ok, and a chuckle). if my neighbors were being beaten and civil disorder were necessary i wouldn't care where i lived, i would take to the streets. i think many are living in the past and wishing for the energy and spectacle of those times. or, some think that their pet peeves can muster value from the idea of "public protest". some protesters, friends of mine, simply need to feel necessary and rebellious.

i tend to exorcise my pet peeves over a pint or on haif, rather than use my freedom to garner media attention.

[RedScare]

the protests at tienanmen square and the civil rights movement are/were different worlds than we live in today.

sorry, i'm thinking of anti-rail and anti-war protests inside the loop that have caused me discomfort (ok, and a chuckle). if my neighbors were being beaten and civil disorder were necessary i wouldn't care where i lived, i would take to the streets. i think many are living in the past and wishing for the energy and spectacle of those times. or, some think that their pet peeves can muster value from the idea of "public protest". some protesters, friends of mine, simply need to feel necessary and rebellious.

i tend to exorcise my pet peeves over a pint or on haif, rather than use my freedom to garner media attention.

Protesting the unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, and the killing of up to 1 million of their citizens while losing thousands of our own is a "pet peeve"? Protesting Beijing's violent putdown of dissidents in Tibet is a "pet peeve"? Attending public meetings to express one's opinion's on public infrastructure that will impact one's home is a "pet peeve"?

Wow.

Protest can take many forms, from the anarchists throwing molotovs, to writing a letter to the editor. Virtually all change for the better ocurs through protest. I'm sorry that the dirty job of effecting positive change causes you "discomfort". But, the good news is, you have moved to the perfect place to keep your hands clean. If ever there were a capitalist version of a solialist society, Woodlands Town Center would be it.

I guess this is why there are more threads about people leaving the Woodlands lately, than moving into it. It appears that is the only way to dissent.

[memebag]

the protests at tienanmen square and the civil rights movement are/were different worlds than we live in today.

I missed the memo on the world swap. This new world is so perfect that it is and shall remain immune from any defect that might benefit from protest? How did that happen??

sorry, i'm thinking of anti-rail and anti-war protests inside the loop that have caused me discomfort (ok, and a chuckle). if my neighbors were being beaten and civil disorder were necessary i wouldn't care where i lived, i would take to the streets. i think many are living in the past and wishing for the energy and spectacle of those times. or, some think that their pet peeves can muster value from the idea of "public protest". some protesters, friends of mine, simply need to feel necessary and rebellious.

I'm not saying all protests are worthwhile, or that lots of protestors aren't attention starved kooks. This isn't about any particular protest; its about the replacement of public space with private space that reduces the power of legal protest. It's about changing the traditions of the USA.

Your neighbors aren't being beaten, but someone's neighbors are. You may not think protest is "necessary" if your neighbors are safe, but if you spend your life walled away from it you'll never get a chance to have that thought. You simply won't know about it.

I'm surprised by how open you are about your disdain for protest and your belief that we live in a world that won't need it. I had imagined that a lot of people were happy with the elimination of public space but unaware of the sinister consequences. You seem perfectly aware of them and still happy about it. That's deeply disturbing.

[KatieDidIt]

I guess this is why there are more threads about people leaving the Woodlands lately, than moving into it. It appears that is the only way to dissent.

You live within a corporation up there. It gets tiresome to battle against the machine and nothing comes of it. One person can't make a difference in a situation like that because the difference must be appoved by the Association/TownshipPooBa, aka The Woodlands Development CO.

Some people are not affected by that, others it drives to distraction.

So in our case (along with commute times) we gave up.